Tell me again why group rides aren't a good use of time?

[far-sided]

I've been going over that http://www.cyclingforums.com/power-training/454093-how-far-8-hours-week.html and it seems the general consensus is to avoid group rides and train alone...My question is why?
Today for example, I was able to do a great group ride, I accumulated a TSS of 215, not epic but very good for just over 2 hours IMHO. Granted my current CTL is hovering in the mid-40's so I'm not going to win any stage races soon, but what kind of solo training could I do in 2 hours that would rack up some good TSS AND feel that good?
I know the ole SST is recommended but isn't that for people for more than 6-8 hours of training per week?
What say you?

 

[CalicoCat]

I don't have much to add here, but am very interested in what people have to say since I have been having the same question.

In my case, our club has a fast training ride once a week that on a good day, I can just about hang with them, but not do any of the work at the front. However, my coach calls doing that ride (instead of our usual interval workout) "cheating." I think it is just because the club ride isn't as specific of a workout as we can get by doing intervals. However, drafting at your limit in a high speed paceline must have its benefits, right?

 

[daveryanwyoming]

It all depends on the group ride, your goals and how best to achieve those goals. But regardless riding with the group puts your training in their hands which may not be ideal.

Some of the good things about typical group rides:
- Great place to develop pack riding skills and to learn road etiquette.
- Possibly ride faster (not necessarily harder)
- Often good for high end short effort L6/L7 work and learning to dig deep to cover attacks, hang onto wheels and recover at speed after hard sections
- Often fun and social and time passes fast with a good group

Some less than ideal things in typical group rides:
- Pace determined by the group, may be more or less intense than your individual training goals
- Often easier than ideal while sitting in or for less fit riders way too hard even then, again group dictates pace and even with pre-arranged goals group rides often take on a life of their own and don't stick to plan
- Usually lack sustained efforts at your own best training pace unless they include suitable hills of appropriate durations
- Often take longer than necessary due to waiting for folks to arrive, dealing with slower riders, regrouping along the route for dropped folks, other folks flatting, etc. No big deal if you've got the time but often not all that time efficient.

The big one for a lot of folks is not being able to ride your own best pace for sustained sections. Sometimes you can sit on the front and folks will let you chug away at your SST or L4 pace but most groups prefer to rotate to give everyone that wants it time up front. And for the folks that just hang on for dear life till they're dropped a lot of them would probably be better off going out and riding some SST/L4 work at their own best pace instead of desperate L5/L6 work until the blow and limp home.

I like group rides for the social aspects and for the repeated short interval anaerobic work. It's really hard to simulate the second or third hard dig to latch onto a wheel after a series of attacks when training alone and groups are great for sprint work. But so many group rides are either long slow social cruises or the Tuesday night worlds variety with a lot of mellow riding punctuated by pure hell. Great stuff if that's what you're working on but a lot of folks confuse a group ride that was mostly recovery pace riding with some killer sections with the kind of good sustained training that will actually do more for their overall fitness and sustainable power. Just because it's hard and just because it emulates parts of races does not necessarily mean it's the best training. But it does depend on what you're after and what you need to work on most.

-Dave

 

[daveryanwyoming]

...I accumulated a TSS of 215, not epic but very good for just over 2 hours IMHO....

BTW, sure looks like your FTP is underestimated. Racking up 215 TSS in 2 hours implies sustaining an IF of nearly 1.04 for a full two hours, that's a tall order...

 

[far-sided]

BTW, sure looks like your FTP is underestimated. Racking up 215 TSS in 2 hours implies sustaining an IF of nearly 1.04 for a full two hours, that's a tall order...

Thanks Dave, I was hoping you'd chime in. You're right, I'm due to bump up my FTP about 3 or 4 % (according to a 10 mile TT last week) and the ride was closer to 2hrs 15min...Hopefully that'll give me a more honest assessment. My NP for the ride was 265W but if I remember correctly my FTP is set to 275.
Of course I do suffer from Dad-nesia.
Seems like my only solo rides are when I'm able to get 45-60 min/wk on the trainer for SST or slightly below.
I guess what it comes down to is that I really don't know what my weaknesses are (besides weight) to train them...I climb well enough, sprint decent enough...

 

[CalicoCat]

The big one for a lot of folks is not being able to ride your own best pace for sustained sections. Sometimes you can sit on the front and folks will let you chug away at your SST or L4 pace but most groups prefer to rotate to give everyone that wants it time up front. And for the folks that just hang on for dear life till they're dropped a lot of them would probably be better off going out and riding some SST/L4 work at their own best pace instead of desperate L5/L6 work until the blow and limp home.

. . . . Just because it's hard and just because it emulates parts of races does not necessarily mean it's the best training. But it does depend on what you're after and what you need to work on most.

-Dave

Thanks for this response Dave!
You sound pretty much like my coach in this regard who is definitely not an advocate of hanging on for dear life in the fast club training ride instead of doing the "prescribed" workout. Sometimes we will warm up with the club ride for the social aspect of it, but then peel off and do our interval training. I am never 100% certain when I do this whether I wouldn't get a better workout if I had stuck with the club ride instead. But I guess both you and he are right in saying that in the club ride, I wouldn't necessarily have worked the energy systems targeted for a given week.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

....I guess both you and he are right in saying that in the club ride, I wouldn't necessarily have worked the energy systems targeted for a given week.

It comes down to taking control and owning your training versus going out and doing what the group does regardless of whether it addresses your needs.

Not every training day needs to be completely structured and there are a lot of good reasons to do some group riding but if you really want to see progress a good portion of your training week should target your needs at your best pace. IMO, it's not a question of whether folks should completely avoid group rides, it's more a question of when they're appropriate and when time might be spent better training alone.

From that standpoint I think group rides (the Tuesday night world's variety) aren't the best idea for riders who don't typically stay with the group for very long or lack the fitness to go with the jumps and work high their high end. OTOH, you've got to learn to ride in a group sooner or later and there's a lot of bike handling, tactics, drafting and other things that require groups to learn. And for those riders that can comfortably stay with the group and participate in the action spirited group rides can be a great way to tune up the top end during parts of the season where there isn't much racing going on.

Nothing wrong with group rides for the right reasons and in the right doses. It's just that a lot of riders do all or nearly all their training with the group at the expense of solid work at their own best intensity. I can think of many club riders that would benefit from more solo training to work on building their sustainable power but continue to opt for getting hammered and dropped out of the local group rides convinced that it's the best training out there since all the fast guys do it.

-Dave

 

[kopride]

Great thread and basically is what I was talking about recently on the killing me thread. I am the opposite of the group ride regular; and do most of my real training indoors, grinding relentlessly away on the trainer while staring at the power meter. Lot's of 2 x 20s in the sweet spot. As a result, when I go on these occasional fast group rides, I seem to have real problems responding when the pack steps it up for those brief turbo bursts. My training seems to have turned me into a diesel engine where I can just chug along in the sweet spot indefinitely, but I don't have enough high end to hang on for those brief spurts when it gets into ranges way above FTP. I think I do need to add some L5 and L6 work on the trainer, and I think a group ride is as good as any place to get that high level work.

So, for me, I think a weekly group ride might be just what the doctor ordered.

 

[OldGoat]

Not sure if anyone mentioned above; if so, I missed it. Group rides will take you on some great routes you're not familiar with and might never have found on your own.

I practically live for my Sunday group ride in the hills of my state. Typically 50+/- miles, 5000'+ of climbing. As a non-climber, these rides force me to ride close to my limits and make me a better, stronger rider than I would otherwise be.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

...So, for me, I think a weekly group ride might be just what the doctor ordered.

Could be, sounds like you're getting your solid sustained work and are fit enough to go with the group and work on high end stuff.

In addition or as an alternative to doing L5/L6 work you might add some HOP style microinterval work into your solo training. In addition to building AWC or short interval power there's also the question of on demand muscle recruitment for quick accelerations. A seated burst for ten to fifteen seconds every couple of minutes in what would otherwise be a mid to high Tempo effort is a great way to work on acceleration, recovery from frequent accelerations without having to shift training away from sustainable power. Kind of a having your cake and eating it too if the goal is both building FTP and working on more dynamic riding.

But you're right, a spirited group ride can be great for getting out of a 'dieseling' rut. Besides, it's only out on the road that you can learn to predict attacks and surges and work on the gearing and proactively spinning it up in the saddle when the leaders jump or someone takes a flyer up the side. That tactical skill is hard to develop when riding alone and can seriously reduce the peak power necessary to stay with the group.

-Dave

 

[frenchyge]

I know the ole SST is recommended but isn't that for people for more than 6-8 hours of training per week?

The less time you have to train, the more important it is that your training time be as efficient and targeted as possible.

Of course there are caveats to the advice about group rides. If the groups are small (~3-5 people) and everyone is actively contributing to the pace-making (ie, working above threshold during pulls so that the others are recovering in L3 while sitting in) then I think they can be very effective and can encourage riders to sustain SST levels for longer than they otherwise might if they were riding by themselves and could just quit whenever they wanted.

Some might read the description above and think "OMG, that's a hammer-fest!" but that's really what it takes to make a group ride as effective as a solo training ride. The trick is to find some other folks who are close enough to one's ability and are also interested in sustaining the group intensity at the appropriate level.

 

[Felt_Rider]

The less time you have to train, the more important it is that your training time be as efficient and targeted as possible.

Of course there are caveats to the advice about group rides. If the groups are small (~3-5 people) and everyone is actively contributing to the pace-making (ie, working above threshold during pulls so that the others are recovering in L3 while sitting in) then I think they can be very effective and can encourage riders to sustain SST levels for longer than they otherwise might if they were riding by themselves and could just quit whenever they wanted.

Some might read the description above and think "OMG, that's a hammer-fest!" but that's really what it takes to make a group ride as effective as a solo training ride. The trick is to find some other folks who are close enough to one's ability and are also interested in sustaining the group intensity at the appropriate level.

That is exactly where I am at along with a handful of other people. The main group continued to grow in popularity and I was getting request constantly from more to join the group. The next thing I know we were up to 30 people on some rides and because of this we had some very good cyclists enter into the group.

It went from a hammerfest that I could barely hang on for 60 miles to something above what I could do and I was one of the ride leaders. Over the duration of 60 to 80 miles, whatever the route was for the day, the group was like Haley's Comet with cyclists dropping off the back mile after mile. I could typically hold for 50 of those miles if I were able to keep to the front of the pack where the formation was tight and drafting was premium. If I or like ability riders were on the back where there is the rubber band effect it was/is brutal.

It became a "no mercy" type of ride. For me if I did my turn in the front I had to be sharp because there was no mercy that you are tired from pulling and perhaps a little winded. It seemed often that as you were going back to the back after a pull the next rider to pull would start sprinting and that is brutal if you going to the back under fatigue to have to stand and sprint. I have been dropped a number of times after doing my effort to pull the group. No Mercy at all. They do not look back to see if there riders falling off. It became so bad that out of 30 riders only 3 to 5 would be remaining in a group at the very end as the entered the parking lot.

We also started getting more serious crashes with having that many riders. Even had to call and wait for an ambulance in a very rural area a few months back after a rider face planted on the pavement.

A couple weeks ago I decided I had enough and sent an email to the other ride leader and said I was breaking out of the main group with 5 other riders with similar abilities and goals. Memorial Day weekend I rode with that small group and I am now back to being very content with the outcome so far. Because it is just a few of us the rotation is more frequent so I get more turns up front pulling. The pace is more steady and constant so less of the hammer and coast type of effort.

My goal now is to train hard as I can when I am in solo mode and then when I go out on Saturday's with the 5 or so and enjoy a long endurance ride at a calmer more constant pace. What is tough is I am now getting emails from many of those cyclist wanting to know what or where I am riding so it becomes difficult dodge the question. Otherwise I will be right back to the "no mercy" ride again.

frenchy's message is exactly where I want to be.

 

[dhk2]

Felt, your experience with larger group rides sounds familar. Some of our club rides turn into hammerfests as well. When the group blows up, and riders are coming in by themselves, you know it's basically been a roadrace pace, at least for all but the small front group. Trying to keep a larger group of various-level club riders and racers together is non-productive, and virtually assures a poor experience for all.

Normal way to deal with this syndrome on club rides is for the larger group to divide natually into several small groups. The ride leader needs to make sure everyone knows the route, or has cue sheets so they can ride at their own pace. The leader normally rides near the back and waits at the rest stop for the back markers, unless they are OK with finishing on their own. Anyone riding ahead of the leader is responsible for their own route.

The leader may not get to ride at his preferred pace or get much of a workout, but most of us only lead a few rides a year so it's not a big deal. Besides, strong leaders can always turn around to pick up back markers, getting extra miles and training.

 

[Felt_Rider]

Felt, your experience with larger group rides sounds familar. Some of our club rides turn into hammerfests as well.

It was time for me to hit the reset button. Fortunately there were a few others that had the same thoughts. Like Dave's suggestions I had to look at my personal goals and then see if those line up with the group's goals. Bad thing is when you get a group that big, or in the case of our's, there were no goals except to destroy everyone else.

Normal way to deal with this syndrome on club rides is for the larger group to divide natually into several small groups. .

We were thinking about that, but the problem is like picking a team in grade school and everyone wants to be on the "A" team. Not that I am anyone special and I am definately the weakest rider of the group, but people kept wanting to ride in my group for whatever reason. I believe it was that I created the route and even though I provided gps data and maps I was usually the only one that bothered to load it in my 705. I suppose they knew if they chased the people without the map data they could end up lost. Maybe that is why they want to ride with me.

As you once said in humor it works out that I get dropped and it makes me a natural sweep rider to pick up the wounded as I head back.

 

[kopride]

We also started getting more serious crashes with having that many riders. Even had to call and wait for an ambulance in a very rural area a few months back after a rider face planted on the pavement.

.

This is the huge No. 1 problem for me. You can't train or work if you are sleeping on the recliner with your shoulder in a sling. Too many people struggling to hang on beyond their abilities is a formula for a disaster. In an urban area, you also start to have stop light and stop sign issues with well, with some riders stopping and others blasting through. Aside from an occasional group hill ride with a very pre-selected group, usually an A ride where the B riders start out a few minutes ahead in a separate group, As far as group rides, I find hill rides to be a little more self selecting than the massive flat rides where some are just hanging on the back for dear life.
Generally, I like my groups to be 4-6 riders of very equal abilities.Even then, we have a designated point, usually about 5-8 miles away, where the ride becomes "no mercy." And again, on a steep hill, it is every man for himself with the fasters waiting a few minutes at the top. I rode the US Cycling championship course last weekend, as part of a pre-race charity event, and it was typical group nonsense with some riders incapable of holding a line or staying on a wheel. It sucks. After a few minutes, I literally pulled off well to the left and just basically rode solo trying to pace myself against the pack. The "wall" mid ride did break the big group up to a more managable pack. It was fun, but I wouldn't want a steady diet of it. My real training ride was a solo effort back home of about 25 miles. At our ages, there is a real fear factor.

That being said, I am still on a ratio of about 3 solo or trainer sessions for every group ride I can get in. There is no beating solos for time management. I'm halfway through my second 20 minute interval in the time it takes to ride over to the meeting point, shoot the bull, argue about the route, and then get rolling out of the traffic areas. On a trainer, I am done start to finish in an hour. I just don't have the luxury of the 5 hour long sunday ride any more--even though as a social event and for clearing the brain, I miss them.

 

[far-sided]

The less time you have to train, the more important it is that your training time be as efficient and targeted as possible.

Of course there are caveats to the advice about group rides. If the groups are small (~3-5 people) and everyone is actively contributing to the pace-making (ie, working above threshold during pulls so that the others are recovering in L3 while sitting in) then I think they can be very effective and can encourage riders to sustain SST levels for longer than they otherwise might if they were riding by themselves and could just quit whenever they wanted.

Exactly! I don't think I'm able to push myself as hard alone as when I'm riding with others...Not for as long anyway.

We were thinking about that, but the problem is like picking a team in grade school and everyone wants to be on the "A" team.

I find that A and B riders usually filter themselves out, especially on windy days. It's pretty hard to "fake it" when the group is all strung out and there's nowhere to hide.

I really enjoy my group rides, when I need the race-type environment I opt for A's, when I want to do a lot of work I opt for the B's.

 

[EoinC]

...I really enjoy my group rides, when I need the race-type environment I opt for A's, when I want to do a lot of work I opt for the B's.

As has been mentioned by Dave, it depends upon what you are training for. Our group rides are generally focused on our road and track racing, and have specific goals for each ride (often motor-paced). We also have social rides, that are used as a recovery run, combined with an occassion for welcoming new riders.
When a group ride gets too big and / or the abilities too disparate, it makes sense to divide it up. We have a Saturday LBS ride where there will be usually 4 groups, with separate routes, distances, and pace on a graded system. It's up to the riders to choose the correct group to join, according to their wants / abilities for the day. If they are new to the ride, they will be encouraged to start with one of the easier groups and work their way up.
My focus is on our junior riders, who do much of their training on their own. Group rides are very important for them in preparing for racing, and in providing them with a (relatively) protected environment for getting out amongst the traffic.
If racing is what you are training for, then the unpredictability of a hammerfest is a good precursor to the real thing. If TT'ing, or general fitness is your aim, a hammerfest may well do more damage than good.

Cheers,
Eoin