Tensioning spokes by "tone"

[sfcommuter]

I keep truing my rear wheel (using a truing stand) but after a few days spokes keep coming loose so I'm guessing I need to increase spoke tension (the Ultegra/OpenPro 32-spoke wheels were not hand-built). I've read various posts about tensioning spokes by plucking on them to ensure that they all have a uniform tone on each side. I would prefer that method to having to shell out $50 for a spoke tension meter (e.g. Park TM-1) but will that be sufficient?

I'm curious if anyone regularly checks spoke tension by plucking their spokes and checking the tone or some other method. Obviously a spoke tension meter would be ideal, but it is really necessary just for simple tension adjustments for a wheel that is already built?

 

[Weisse Luft]

By tone or tensionmeter works for few wheels because of variations in rim extrusions and joining methods.

Tone can be used to determine if adequate tension has been reached if you know what the wheel should be. There is no hard and fast rule that 2.0 mm spokes need 110 kgf of tension. Tone is far more accurate than the best tensionmeter.

To "calibrate" a set of spokes, make a jig you can hold in a vise to support the bend of the spoke. Make a hook that will be supported by the nipple. Add weight to the hook and note the tone when plucked.

I use this method to calibrate my tensionmeter when dealing with non-standard spokes like Sapim CX-Rays. It works fine if you have some musical training (somewhere there is a chart on doing this by piano)

 

[Tom Nakashima]

"Weisse Luft" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
>
> By tone or tensionmeter works for few wheels because of variations in
> rim extrusions and joining methods.
>
> Tone can be used to determine if adequate tension has been reached if
> you know what the wheel should be. There is no hard and fast rule that
> 2.0 mm spokes need 110 kgf of tension. Tone is far more accurate than
> the best tensionmeter.
>
> To "calibrate" a set of spokes, make a jig you can hold in a vise to
> support the bend of the spoke. Make a hook that will be supported by
> the nipple. Add weight to the hook and note the tone when plucked.
>
> I use this method to calibrate my tensionmeter when dealing with
> non-standard spokes like Sapim CX-Rays. It works fine if you have some
> musical training (somewhere there is a chart on doing this by piano)
>
>
> --
> Weisse Luft
>
In combination with a truing stand, tensioning by tone works for me. I tune
near the bottom of the spoke. My son purchased a string tuner for his cello
that I wondering if it will work on a spoke?
I'll have to try this.
-tom

 

[H]

Weisse Luft <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> By tone or tensionmeter works for few wheels because of variations in
> rim extrusions and joining methods.
>
> Tone can be used to determine if adequate tension has been reached if
> you know what the wheel should be. There is no hard and fast rule that
> 2.0 mm spokes need 110 kgf of tension. Tone is far more accurate than
> the best tensionmeter.
>
> [...]


I can imagine that this would work for radial spoke patterns, but what
about patterns where the spokes cross each other?

Doesn't the crossing spokes confuse any measurement that relies on
tone?

-H.

 

[Leo Lichtman]

Tone is particularly good for locating a spoke or spokes that of off from
the others. For instance, if you broke a spoke on a ride, and had a
replacement, I would adjust for tone first, and then finish byh truing the
wheel.

 

[Leland Yee]

Weisse Luft <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> By tone or tensionmeter works for few wheels because of variations in
> rim extrusions and joining methods.
>
> Tone can be used to determine if adequate tension has been reached if
> you know what the wheel should be. There is no hard and fast rule that
> 2.0 mm spokes need 110 kgf of tension. Tone is far more accurate than
> the best tensionmeter.
>
> To "calibrate" a set of spokes, make a jig you can hold in a vise to
> support the bend of the spoke. Make a hook that will be supported by
> the nipple. Add weight to the hook and note the tone when plucked.
>
> I use this method to calibrate my tensionmeter when dealing with
> non-standard spokes like Sapim CX-Rays. It works fine if you have some
> musical training (somewhere there is a chart on doing this by piano)

See http://www.bikexprt.com/bicycle/tension.htm for an article by John
Allen. It includes a chart for use with a piano, or a pitch pipe (my
wife was a choral director).

Leland Yee

 

[LioNiNoiL_a t_Y a h o o_d 0 t_c 0 m]

> I'm curious if anyone regularly checks spoke tension by plucking
> their spokes and checking the tone or some other method.

I tap the spokes with a screwdriver halfway between rim and the
outermost crossing, and strive for uniformity of tone as a starting
point, bearing in mind that the left side spokes of the rear wheel will
have a tone different from those of the right.

 

[Trevor Jeffrey]

sfcommuter wrote in message ...
>
>I keep truing my rear wheel (using a truing stand) but after a few days
>spokes keep coming loose so I'm guessing I need to increase spoke
>tension (the Ultegra/OpenPro 32-spoke wheels were not hand-built).
>I've read various posts about tensioning spokes by plucking on them to
>ensure that they all have a uniform tone on each side. I would prefer
>that method to having to shell out $50 for a spoke tension meter (e.g.
>Park TM-1) but will that be sufficient?
>
>I'm curious if anyone regularly checks spoke tension by plucking their
>spokes and checking the tone or some other method. Obviously a spoke
>tension meter would be ideal, but it is really necessary just for
>simple tension adjustments for a wheel that is already built?

Madame Souza uses a Bb tuning fork in Belleville Rendezvous for her
grandson's 36 spoke front wheel.

Trevor

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

sfcommuter-<< I keep truing my rear wheel (using a truing stand) but after a
few days
spokes keep coming loose so I'm guessing I need to increase spoke
tension (the Ultegra/OpenPro 32-spoke wheels were not hand-built) >><BR><BR>

yep, or perhaps now the rim is no longer round and 'flat', after riding it with
too loose spokes.


sfcommuter<< tensioning spokes by plucking on them to
ensure that they all have a uniform tone on each side. I would prefer
that method to having to shell out $50 for a spoke tension meter (e.g.
Park TM-1) but will that be sufficient? >><BR><BR>


I'll bet they were of a 'uniform tone' before they all came loose. 'equa;
\tension' in other words but all too low. A tensionometer will tell you if the
tension is proper(high enough) and even. playing the wheel like a guitar will
not.

sfcommuter-<< Obviously a spoke
tension meter would be ideal, but it is really necessary just for
simple tension adjustments for a wheel that is already built? >><BR><BR>

'really necessary'? You said all your spokes are comin' loose on the ride. I'd
say a method of making the tension high enough is needed, not just even.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

weisse-<< Tone can be used to determine if adequate tension has been reached if
you know what the wheel should be. There is no hard and fast rule that
2.0 mm spokes need 110 kgf of tension. Tone is far more accurate than
the best tensionmeter. >><BR><BR>

My Aunt matilda's mustache!!

Tone? What tone 'c' above middle 'e' or something?

Tone 'may' tell you if the tension is even. It will not tell you if the tension
is the proper amount. Accomplished wheelbuilders will tell you that for the
vast majority of rims in existence, 100 or so KGF make for a reliable wheel.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

 

[sfcommuter]

Thanks for the responses. I think that tone probably works as a quick check if the wheel is already known to be tensioned properly, but in my case I had a machine-built wheel that was probably under-tensioned to begin with so I don't have a reference point to know exact what "tone" it should be. The "tuning by ear" link posted above shows what notes should correspond to various spoke lengths, but on the rear the left and right side have different tensions so this didn't really provide enough specifics.

Since the front wheel has been fine, last night I tensioned the non-drive side spokes to match the tone of the front and then made sure the wheel was properly dished. Rode to work this morning and aside from soje initial "spoke creaking" (I guess the spokes had to "settle down"?!) which disappeared right away it seems fine so far. If the spokes come lose again, I'll just take it to a shop to have it properly tensioned or buy a Park TM-1 so that I can verify myself. Probably should have spent the extra $ in the first place to have the wheels handbuilt!

 

[Calvin Jones]

Tension by tone has good theory behind it. It is difficult to apply
where the nipples meet the rim, as it were. The tone is not very
clean, as you get a cord from the crossing spokes. We have tried
music tuners here on spokes, and they did not prove consistent.

John Allen has a web site describing the process of truing by tone.

Tension by tone is good for relative tension, but for absolute tension
is become more difficult. If you do decide to get the Park Tool TM-1,
see the excel spreadsheet,
http://www.parktool.com/repair_help/TCC.shtml

 

[LioNiNoiL_a t_Y a h o o_d 0 t_c 0 m]

> Rode to work this morning and aside from soje initial "spoke creaking"
> (I guess the spokes had to "settle down"?!) which disappeared right
> away it seems fine so far.

That creaking is a sign that you didn't stress-relieve the spokes when
they were tensioned. You need to give each pair of spokes a good squeeze
as part of the tensioning procedure.

 

[Weisse Luft]

> Rode to work this morning and aside from soje initial "spoke creaking"
> (I guess the spokes had to "settle down"?!) which disappeared right
> away it seems fine so far.

That creaking is a sign that you didn't stress-relieve the spokes when
they were tensioned. You need to give each pair of spokes a good squeeze
as part of the tensioning procedure.

Not quite correct. Noise on newly trued wheels means the spokes were torsioned and not relieved.

While Brandt's book does a great job on how to avoid this, a much easier way of learning proper techinque is to mark each spoke for its entire length with a black marker. Make a single line down the outside of each spoke. This line should be indicating a condition of no torsion.

When you true the wheel, you need to overcorrect by the degree the nipple and spoke move together once the correct alignment is achieved. Then you back off the nipple until the spoke is unwound and the line you made on each spoke is at its original location, no twists!

 

[sfcommuter]

Not quite correct. Noise on newly trued wheels means the spokes were torsioned and not relieved.

While Brandt's book does a great job on how to avoid this, a much easier way of learning proper techinque is to mark each spoke for its entire length with a black marker. Make a single line down the outside of each spoke. This line should be indicating a condition of no torsion.

When you true the wheel, you need to overcorrect by the degree the nipple and spoke move together once the correct alignment is achieved. Then you back off the nipple until the spoke is unwound and the line you made on each spoke is at its original location, no twists!

That makes sense, but what is the consequence of "relieving" the spokes by riding on the wheel? Do I need to do something else now? It seems like the wheel is still ok and true after the half hour ride.

 

[Nigel Grinter]

sfcommuter <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Thanks for the responses. I think that tone probably works as a quick
> check if the wheel is already known to be tensioned properly, but in my
> case I had a machine-built wheel that was probably under-tensioned to
> begin with so I don't have a reference point to know exact what "tone"
> it should be. The "tuning by ear" link posted above shows what notes
> should correspond to various spoke lengths, but on the rear the left
> and right side have different tensions so this didn't really provide
> enough specifics.
>
> Since the front wheel has been fine, last night I tensioned the
> non-drive side spokes to match the tone of the front and then made sure
> the wheel was properly dished. Rode to work this morning and aside from
> soje initial "spoke creaking" (I guess the spokes had to "settle
> down"?!) which disappeared right away it seems fine so far. If the
> spokes come lose again, I'll just take it to a shop to have it properly
> tensioned or buy a Park TM-1 so that I can verify myself. Probably
> should have spent the extra $ in the first place to have the wheels
> handbuilt!

If you made the non-drive rear spokes the same tension as the front
spokes, they will be too tight and the wheel will be significantly
over-tensioned (assuming the front to be correctly tensioned). In a
typical 9-speed wheelset, front spokes are around 100kgf, rear
non-drive around 65-75kgf and the rear drive around 110-120kgf.

Nigel Grinter
Well-Spoken Wheels

 

[Leo Lichtman]

"Weisse Luft" wrote: (clip) mark each spoke for its entire length with a
black marker. Make a single line down the outside of each spoke. This line
should be indicating a condition of no torsion. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I've never done this, but it seems like a good idea. However, couldn't you
save a LOT of time by just making a black tick-mark in the correct
orientation, next to the threads? Say you line the mark up so it is on the
same side as the bend at the other end. Unless you think you are going to
twist the spoke more than a whole turn, you don't need to see the black mark
spiralling around.

Or am I missing something?

 

[Harris]

sfcommuter <[email protected]> wrote:

> Weisse Luft Wrote:
> > Not quite correct. Noise on newly trued wheels means the spokes were
> > torsioned and not relieved.

> That makes sense, but what is the consequence of "relieving" the spokes
> by riding on the wheel? Do I need to do something else now? It seems
> like the wheel is still ok and true after the half hour ride.

The pinging sound you heard when you started riding on the wheel was the
"wind-up" coming out of the spokes. That can cause the wheel to go
slightly out of true. Adequate lubrication of the spoke threads and the
nipple/rim interface (as well as good tightening/backing off technique)
will minimize wind-up.

Relieving wind-up should not be confused with stress relieving. While
stress relieving will sometimes help undo wind-up, that's not its primary
purpose. And you cannot stress relieve just by riding.

Art Harris

 

[Weisse Luft]

"Weisse Luft" wrote: (clip) mark each spoke for its entire length with a
black marker. Make a single line down the outside of each spoke. This line
should be indicating a condition of no torsion. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I've never done this, but it seems like a good idea. However, couldn't you
save a LOT of time by just making a black tick-mark in the correct
orientation, next to the threads? Say you line the mark up so it is on the
same side as the bend at the other end. Unless you think you are going to
twist the spoke more than a whole turn, you don't need to see the black mark
spiralling around.

Or am I missing something?

Yes, a single black mark would work but I have yet to find a permanent marker that will adhere to shiny spokes Making a thin black line is redundant.

BTW, the Sharpie brand works well. Remove the ink with alcohol on a paper towel. Everclear (tm) works well and is fairly non-toxic, unless you drink too much

 

[Rick Onanian]

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 23:55:26 +1000, Weisse Luft
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Yes, a single black mark would work but I have yet to find a permanent
>marker that will adhere to shiny spokes Making a thin black line is
>redundant.

Use "Liquid Paper" or white paint. Actually, any color paint, as
long as it's thick like Liquid Paper/White Out. Then, you can remove
it by scraping.

>BTW, the Sharpie brand works well. Remove the ink with alcohol on a
>paper towel. Everclear (tm) works well and is fairly non-toxic, unless
>you drink too much

Mmmmmmmm....alchohol....*drool*...
--
Rick Onanian