Terminate L4 cause of breathing not leg ache

[watts4speed]

I'm finding that as my FTP goes up that I'm increasingly limited by my rapid breathing. I find that as I get maybe 10-15 minutes into a 20min interval or hard hill climb that my breathing rate increases and becomes more shallow, and not too long afterward my legs get heavy and I have to stop, and I also develop a stitch in my side. If I slow my breathing down and force it to become deeper then my legs don't get as heavy quickly so it's clear that my breathing is limiting my power. My HR is not usually high.

Given my breathing is becoming my limiter on 2x20min efforts does this suggest I'm doing them too hard, or is something like my VO2Max low. My estimated FTP is 260 and my 5min power last month was 330 (an all time high). My FTP might be limited by this breathing issue but I can't say for sure. Any insight would be appreciated.

 

[frenchyge]

Given my breathing is becoming my limiter on 2x20min efforts does this suggest I'm doing them too hard, or is something like my VO2Max low.

Sounds like you just need to relax and breathe deeper, since that lets you continue without heavy legs.

You might try a slightly lower cadence if your knees can tolerate it, since that typically slows the breathing and HR as well.

 

[Sillyoldtwit]

Something is not right here. With L4, my breathing stays fairly normal throughout, with L5, once I've settled in and relaxed my breathing is again relatively normal. To affect my breathing, I have to be doing a hard L6 workout, and L7 workouts at over 500 watts definitely make me gasp. However, I wouldn't call it shallow breathing, more like deep gasping, and only with L7 efforts would I ever need to stop, to prevent my quads from bursting open.

And as you know, I'm no spring chicken.

Others will probably offer different advice, but personally I would see my quack and get it checked out. Tyson

Ooops! They already have.

 

[doctorSpoc]

I'm finding that as my FTP goes up that I'm increasingly limited by my rapid breathing. I find that as I get maybe 10-15 minutes into a 20min interval or hard hill climb that my breathing rate increases and becomes more shallow, and not too long afterward my legs get heavy and I have to stop, and I also develop a stitch in my side. If I slow my breathing down and force it to become deeper then my legs don't get as heavy quickly so it's clear that my breathing is limiting my power. My HR is not usually high.

Given my breathing is becoming my limiter on 2x20min efforts does this suggest I'm doing them too hard, or is something like my VO2Max low. My estimated FTP is 260 and my 5min power last month was 330 (an all time high). My FTP might be limited by this breathing issue but I can't say for sure. Any insight would be appreciated.

1) as far as training goes there is going to be almost no difference in the adaptation doing them slightly slower and a little more relaxed... you are probably just doing them too hard

2) is it all of them or really the 2nd... 3rd... doing the 1st on on the slow side might help... might be a matter of not warming up enough. i find if i do my 1st interval too fast i'm red lined for them all, even if the 1st one felt ok and very doable.. doing the 1st one on the slow side result in the total ave power for all being higher

3) a slightly lower cadence might help

4) more recovery between intervals might also help... 10mins between 20min L4s instead of the usual 5mins... i find i can do much higher quality L4s with 10mins recovery and you are only riding 5-10mins more for the whole workout... it's worth it in the end

 

[watts4speed]

Thanks for the reply. I agree something doesn't seem right here. I had exercise induced asthma as a kid and in looking at your description of sensations >=L4 I'm wondering if I'm having asthma problems. I think I'll get it check out.

Something is not right here. With L4, my breathing stays fairly normal throughout, with L5, once I've settled in and relaxed my breathing is again relatively normal. To affect my breathing, I have to be doing a hard L6 workout, and L7 workouts at over 500 watts definitely make me gasp. However, I wouldn't call it shallow breathing, more like deep gasping, and only with L7 efforts would I ever need to stop, to prevent my quads from bursting open.

And as you know, I'm no spring chicken.

Others will probably offer different advice, but personally I would see my quack and get it checked out. Tyson

Ooops! They already have.

 

[Sillyoldtwit]

Thanks for the reply. I agree something doesn't seem right here. I had exercise induced asthma as a kid and in looking at your description of sensations >=L4 I'm wondering if I'm having asthma problems. I think I'll get it check out.

As the others have said, you might be going at it a little too hard, however, what made me suspicious was the fact that your HR wasn't that high. Although I don't look at my HR until after an interval (to see how quickly it drops), when I've been puffing and panting with an L7 effort , my HR at the finish is getting on towards 160bpm, which is probably pretty near to my MHR.

Anyway, what have you got to lose by getting things checked out and gaining some peace of mind? Tyson

 

[swampy1970]

I'm finding that as my FTP goes up that I'm increasingly limited by my rapid breathing. I find that as I get maybe 10-15 minutes into a 20min interval or hard hill climb that my breathing rate increases and becomes more shallow, and not too long afterward my legs get heavy and I have to stop, and I also develop a stitch in my side. If I slow my breathing down and force it to become deeper then my legs don't get as heavy quickly so it's clear that my breathing is limiting my power. My HR is not usually high.

Given my breathing is becoming my limiter on 2x20min efforts does this suggest I'm doing them too hard, or is something like my VO2Max low. My estimated FTP is 260 and my 5min power last month was 330 (an all time high). My FTP might be limited by this breathing issue but I can't say for sure. Any insight would be appreciated.

How fast are you pedalling? Are you trying to pedal like Lance - at 100 to 110rpm and hitting the wall enroute to the end of the interval? Try the same power output in the next smaller sprocket to reduce the rpm and see how that goes. Other than that I can only hope that you don't have Kaiser for medical insurance. I do, and besides having shown that I do have some lung function issues, they're pretty much not wanting to do jack apart from trying to throw the usual "suspects" (aka drugs) at it.

 

[Piotr]

I'm finding that as my FTP goes up that I'm increasingly limited by my rapid breathing. I find that as I get maybe 10-15 minutes into a 20min interval or hard hill climb that my breathing rate increases and becomes more shallow, and not too long afterward my legs get heavy and I have to stop, and I also develop a stitch in my side. If I slow my breathing down and force it to become deeper then my legs don't get as heavy quickly so it's clear that my breathing is limiting my power. My HR is not usually high.

Given my breathing is becoming my limiter on 2x20min efforts does this suggest I'm doing them too hard, or is something like my VO2Max low. My estimated FTP is 260 and my 5min power last month was 330 (an all time high). My FTP might be limited by this breathing issue but I can't say for sure. Any insight would be appreciated.

I find myself in similar situations a lot, especially pushing the pace outdoors - climbing. I've been known to stick with some very good climbers for 20 min or so, after which I develop the side stitch. I recently did a short (10-11 min) mountain bike TT, my first MTB ride this year. I found my ragged breathing to be the most annoying part of the ordeal, because my legs felt just fine. I have a fairly small upper body and suspect that my lung capacity is similarly small compared to my cycling ability. I may have it completely backwards, but sometimes I wonder if the opposite of what you suggest is in fact true, e.g. our VO2max is relatively high compared to our ability to front-end the oxygen. Or perhaps it's the only anaerobic capacity that's high? Opinions?

FYI, my 5 min power is a relatively high 6.2 W/kg (recently retested), which could be due to a somewhat high AWC as my FTP is 4.85 W/kg (I'm a somewhat reversed "V" guy). If your AWC is high, it's possible that you just push too hard in your 20 min efforts. In that case I would strongly suggest that you test your FTP only by doing a true 1 hr TT. If you estimate it using the 95% of CP20 formula it may well be overestimated.

 

[Piotr]

I find myself in similar situations a lot, especially pushing the pace outdoors - climbing. I've been known to stick with some very good climbers for 20 min or so, after which I develop the side stitch. I recently did a short (10-11 min) mountain bike TT, my first MTB ride this year. I found my ragged breathing to be the most annoying part of the ordeal, because my legs felt just fine. I have a fairly small upper body and suspect that my lung capacity is similarly small compared to my cycling ability. I may have it completely backwards, but sometimes I wonder if the opposite of what you suggest is in fact true, e.g. our VO2max is relatively high compared to our ability to front-end the oxygen. Or perhaps it's the only anaerobic capacity that's high? Opinions?

FYI, my 5 min power is a relatively high 6.2 W/kg (recently retested), which could be due to a somewhat high AWC as my FTP is 4.85 W/kg (I'm a somewhat reversed "V" guy). If your AWC is high, it's possible that you just push too hard in your 20 min efforts. In that case I would strongly suggest that you test your FTP only by doing a true 1 hr TT. If you estimate it using the 95% of CP20 formula it may well be overestimated.

I just realized that the highlighted sentence may need a little explanation. While one person may only need 80% of their lung capacity before their VO2max is reached, it's possible that someone else may need 100% or more (hypothetically speaking) to fullfil their intramuscular oxygen craving. I hope that is more illustrative of my thinking.

 

[bigbadwoulfe]

How fast are you pedalling? Are you trying to pedal like Lance - at 100 to 110rpm and hitting the wall enroute to the end of the interval? Try the same power output in the next smaller sprocket to reduce the rpm and see how that goes.

+1 on this. I find that I sometimes fail to complete a 3x20 even if the power is well within the limits of my FTP. I feel that my legs are ok but my lungs aren't when this happens. Try following his advice and I'm sure you're legs will feel the burn this time with a markedly decreased feeling of breathlessness.