Terrible time trial time... was it all about being aero?

[lara fara]

Hi - I completed my first multiple stage race last weekend which consisted of a time trial followed by two road races and then a crit. to give you an idea, i have mainly only completed previous time trials in triathlons (40k) where i have averaged close to 36kph without a time trail bike or aero bars (i am female also ). However, i would now be as strong as i ever have on the bike and in the 5km (or 4.5km i cant recall) i was third last out of about 15 and my average speed was ****! It was like 32.5, and my boyfriend averaged 42 and he is always usually 5kph faster than me in a time trial/raod race/ bunch ride so it seemed a bit much.

He was on his TT with aero helmet and he has been adjusting his position to make it optimal, and i am not sure what the other girls were on that i was racing, i know some had TT, and others may have had a better set up and aero bars etc. I was also really slow at the turn around because i was nervous and took it too wide. I think with the amount of effort i put in (my HR avg'd 180) i should have not been 10kph slower than sam. Would this all be contributed mainly to lack of aeroness or am i looking for a good excuse for just being slow?

I wasn't too bad in the road races, i was about where i would have expected, riding with people of simillar strength while the ones with more experience were further ahead.

i know that i am reasonably strong but these girls definitely have something over me, i think its time for a coach, and no more time trials until i have my setup sorted!

also, is it better to have a coach who lives locally and has seen you ride, or does it matter if they are in a different state or country and have never met you?

any input much appreciated!

Lara

 

[kdelong]

This thread will help you with your aero questions:http://www.cyclingforums.com/forum/thread/484861/newbie-assistance-needed-for-20km-performance

You definitely want a local coach who can see you ride and assess your form and set up. That is next to impossible to do from another state or country, that is unless you can pay for his airfare and expenses to come to your location.

 

[bgoetz]

I would doubt that in something that short aero anything is going to make a significant difference, we are talking seconds and 1-2 kph at most. The thing is with a TT that short, is that it is all about how deep into the "pain cave" you can take yourself. I would expect differences in strength/LT to really stand out on a TT this short, which is why your time vs. your bfs time would have been more than expected.

I have done really well in road races and crits and really feel like when I go into a race or crit I have a good chance of winning. Time Trials are a whole different beast, they are really an art within themselves. I have personally devoted one day a week to time trial practice, even though I may only do a handful every year I feel like the ability to do well in a TT is really a priceless skill. BTW at this time I do not have a TT bike, so I use a nice set of aero bars and have a different seat/seatpost setup that puts the seat in a more TT position. Also I think as far as aero is concerned the helmet makes a pretty big difference in comparision, and removing your gloves is the best "bang for the buck" (that and making sure your # is sitting flat).

 

[bgoetz]

On the coach issue, I personally would invest in a power meter before I would invest in a coach. Most coaches are going to want to train with power anyway and if you are training with power it is really easy to have a part time coach that you communicate with via the internet and let the power meter be your coach. That said I don't have either, lol.

 

[lara fara]

Ok i totally understand what you mean, but i seriously did have a really high heart rate and went as hard as i could, it averaged 180, i guess maybe it needed to be higher, but how come i averaged over 35 for 40k when in this one i only had 4.5k to do and totally stuffed it up? I also really do think my LT is quite high, and i can sustain lots of pain for a long time, i am often in bunches hanging on at 50kph for a while and am able ot sustain it.

Do you think it is that i really dont know how to TT? Or perhaps i have not been doing the right training and its showing, so even though i've been doing hard rides, hills, recovery rides it obviously hasn't helped for TT. I have just contacted a really good coach who used to be the national womens coach for auatralia and he lives down the road from me. Is it possible to be super fit, have a pretty good LT and still do badly on a short TT?

It is also possible that now i am competing against "real" cyclists my measuring bar of how good i am has been raised dramatically.

thanks for your help, i jsut want to figure out what it was that caused me to be so slow!

 

[bgoetz]

At some point though your HR will not be linier to power or lactic acid production, which is what makes HR such a crappy tool when compared with power (honestly you would be best ditching the HR monitor and using PE, saving some weight, on a TT like this). Your power is likely no where near your bfs power, last time he posted up some #s I thought his FTP was around 330ish, you take those #s to short efforts and it is only going to be more of a difference. A longer TT is more about a lower level of pain over a longer period of time, something that short is as much pain as you can take for that short duration. Look at how the results vary when the pros do these short TTs, take the TT at the tour de Romandie for example, you can look at the results and see that Tony Martin who is one of the greatest TT guys in the field just can't do what some of the pursuit guys can do, who are built for that short hard effort.

I can't say much as I am just kind of getting into this as well, but IMO at this point in where you are, it is all about finding your strengths and your weaknesses. Work on being better at your weaknesses and the best at your strengths, know what you can do and when you can do it.

 

[CalicoCat]

yea, a short TT like that is much more like a long VO2 effort, and so requires training that system which is a lot different than training at FTP. . . . also, was this TT uphill by any chance? . . . if so, weight (or power:weight) is a major factor.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Originally Posted by bgoetz .

I would doubt that in something that short aero anything is going to make a significant difference, we are talking seconds and 1-2 kph at most. ..

Unless it's a hillclimb aerodynamics are still going to be very important in a 4+ km time trial. That's basically a pursuit distance and you can be sure pursuiters spend a lot of time dialing in their position and aerodynamics. At the higher speeds of a short time trial aerodynamics are even more important and are going to be worth more than 2 kph at race speeds.

Just taking a quick swag using a typical road bike CdA of ~.32 vs. a decent but not super low TT position CdA of .23 and assuming larafara plus bike and kit comes in somewhere around 60 kg and can sustain 250 watts for the short TT, she'd ride more than 4 kph faster on the TT bike which is roughly 45 seconds of time savings for the 4.5km course. And that's pretty conservative in terms of the CdA I'd expect she'd achieve in a good TT position.

How much difference would 45 seconds have made in terms of placing in the race?

On a course that short it does become even harder to compare to Stowy's time since the start is a big part of an event this short and he's probably got a sizeable advantage over you in the standing start and sprint power department. That washes out a bit in longer time trials but for something this short a powerful start before settling into a very hard race pace is going to be important. As others have mentioned it could also reflect your power profile strength's and weaknesses as something this short is going to draw heavily on both AWC and your power at VO2 max which may or may not be your strengths.

But I wouldn't ignore aerodynamics or the importance of a good position for short time trials. Sure for a hillclimb prologue skip the aero bars and just ride hard but if it was flat and fast aerodynamics are going to matter and can easily determine the outcome of the race.

-Dave

 

[bgoetz]

Wow, good info Dave, I would have never guessed it would be that significant. Looks like in addition to a new road bike, aero wheels, and a power meter, I need to get a damn TT bike and an aero helmet, lol

 

[stowy]

Hey Guys, I second that post by Dave, great info. Definitely think Lara lost time on the acceleration on the start, also slow / cautious on the turn around, again slower acceleration from the turnaround, plus pushing more air, all those things would add up.

The prologue had a small rise in the middle of it, but you could still stay aero and i think i was going ~37km/h over it.

I think the V02 style training and power from a start would make a big difference as well as using aero stuff and being faster around the corners.

 

[lara fara]

wow thanks heaps for the advice, i really think you are right Dave it just didn't seem right, and 45 seconds would have given me a time that would have placed me where i would expect to be, not first but in the middle at least, i know that i'm not that much weaker than the girls i was racing, equal or stronger to some of them too.

I'm going to start a coaching program next week or the one after, so then at least i will know i am heading in the right direction at least. I might have to bite the bullet and finally ride a TT bike!

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Originally Posted by lara fara .
I might have to bite the bullet and finally ride a TT bike!...

If it's in the budget a TT bike is great, especially since it allows you to dial in a good position, always have a bike set up in that position and allows you train in that position frequently which really helps. But just clipping aero bars on your road bike and spending some time getting the position dialed will save you most of those 45 seconds. Aero bars and a decent position are definitely the bulk of the aero savings, the helmet, deep wheels, skinsuit, booties, aero frame, etc. all help but the biggest bang for your buck is getting the aero bars and taking time to figure out a good position in them.

-Dave