The _Observer_ on "deadly" bike lanes



John Hearns wrote:

> I disagree. Bikes are pretty personal. You adjust them to
> fit yourself, and people don't generally swap them around.
> Ever had one stolen?

Yes, but that's not really the point. If some oik wants to
invade your personal space with, say, a water pistol or an
insult it's far easier to do than if you're locked in an
enclosed box. It's personal /space/, not a personal /thing/,
that I think was Patrick's point.

> I counter you by proposing that its a misconception among
> non-cyclists that its common for people to borrow bikes,
> and that they are interchangeable. You certainly can
> borrow a bike, but would be uncomfortable till it gets
> adjusted to suit you. And they come in different sizes.

My mum rides my Brompton quite happily without any fiddling
bar not pulling the seatpost up so far when unfolding it.
I'm 5'8", mum is 5'2". Not all bikes have small size range
tolerances, but I think the main point is that you'd need a
Velomobile for separate personal space.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext.
33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177
Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email protected]
http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
On Wed, 26 May 2004 09:02:49 +0100, Peter Clinch wrote:

> John Hearns wrote:
>
>> I disagree. Bikes are pretty personal. You adjust them to
>> fit yourself, and people don't generally swap them
>> around. Ever had one stolen?
>
> Yes, but that's not really the point. If some oik wants to
> invade your personal space with, say, a water pistol or an
> insult it's far easier to do than if you're locked in an
> enclosed box. It's personal /space/, not a personal
> /thing/, that I think was Patrick's point.
>
I wasn't wanting to be argumentative.

Maybe this should be a new thread. I think non-cyclists view
bicycles as all interchangeable. Maybe non-drivers see cars
that way too!
 
John Hearns <[email protected]> writes:

>Maybe this should be a new thread. I think non-cyclists
>view bicycles as all interchangeable. Maybe non-drivers see
>cars that way too!

Even drivers can - our first car I only could recognise when
it had the roofbars and the kayaks on. With a later car in a
rather anonymous shape and colour I usually checked the
numberplate to make sure.

Is there a word to describe a sort of car dyslexia?

Roos
 
[email protected] (Patrick Herring) writes:

>"Just zis Guy, you know?"
><[email protected]> wrote:

>| David Arditti wrote:
>|
>| >> The major deterrent to more cycling is laziness.
>| >> Bulding new roads spreads out the congestion; building
>| >> cycle paths does not amke people less lazy.
>|
>| > So the British just happen to be the laziest nation in
>| > Europe, hence low cycling levels? I doubt it.
>|
>| How else would you explain people who live less than 15
>| minutes' ride from an office but choose to spend 25
>| minutes driving it instead?
>|
>| > I would have thought it was pretty generally accepted
>| > that the reason more people do not cycle is the
>| > environment.
>|
>| That's one of the excuses. Remove that and it becomes the
>| hills. Or the weather. Or the lack of changing facilities
>| at the office. Or they ran outta gas. Had a flat tyre.
>| Didn't have enough money for cab fare. Their tux didn't
>| come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from
>| outta town. Someone stole their bike. There was an
>| earthquake, a terrible flood, locusts. It isn't their
>| fault, they swear to God!

>IMHO a major unacknowledged factor is wanting to prolong
>personal space for as long as possible, particularly when
>commuting to work. Houses and cars are personal space;
>bikes, pavements, buses, offices are not.

Another unacknowledged factor is snobbery. I know people who
find taking a bus rather uncomfortable because people might
think they couldn't afford a car. And a couple I know who
recently graduated from bicycles to motor car as main
transport told me how surprised they were to discover that a
lot more of the neighbours started talking to them, because
without a car they were seen as "not quite our sort of
people". The congratulations on the purchase of the car, and
the questions abouts welfare, etc., made it quite clear that
their jump in social status was by becoming car drivers.
--
Chris Malcolm [email protected] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
 
On Wed, 26 May 2004 09:00:16 +0000, Roos Eisma wrote:

>
> Even drivers can - our first car I only could recognise
> when it had the roofbars and the kayaks on. With a later
> car in a rather anonymous shape and colour I usually
> checked the numberplate to make sure.
>
Stop rubbing it in. First we get someone going off to
Ardnamurchan Point. Then I realise I haven't sat in a kayak
for many years.
 
On Wed, 26 May 2004 10:54:16 +0100, John Hearns <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Wed, 26 May 2004 09:00:16 +0000, Roos Eisma wrote:
>
>>
>> Even drivers can - our first car I only could recognise
>> when it had the roofbars and the kayaks on. With a later
>> car in a rather anonymous shape and colour I usually
>> checked the numberplate to make sure.
>>
> Stop rubbing it in. First we get someone going off to
> Ardnamurchan Point. Then I realise I haven't sat in a
> kayak for many years.

I never have but somehow I've been roped in for an "urban
adventure race" in Edinburgh this summer, it involves some
canoing/kayaking (I think the former), orienteering and
mountain biking. It seems to use the sewers too! I guess I'd
better get some learning done.

Colin
 
John Hearns <[email protected]> writes:

> Maybe non-drivers see cars that way [as
> interchangable] too!

As an occaasional driver, so do I. Every time I go back to
the car rental place they give me a different one.

-dan

--
"please make sure that the person is your friend before
you confirm"
 
Simon Brooke wrote:

> transport at all on a substantial part of the route), I
> disagree that bicycles don't have this effect. Getting on
> your own familiar bike and just getting out of there is
> very similar

For the likes of us, yes, but the thing you're up
against here is the general public perception of bikes
compared to cars.

> Come to think of it, I have in my life commuted far more
> often by cycle than by any other mode of transport.

Cycling or walking have been my only regular commute modes,
and I wouldn't have it any other way (in the UK, various
possibilities for XC ski in colder places might be good...).

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext.
33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177
Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email protected]
http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
On Wed, 26 May 2004 00:16:46 +0100 someone who may be Gawnsoft
<[email protected]> wrote this:-

>I'd still like to see the details of the study that
>concluded this.

As would I.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number
F566DA0E I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK
government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.
 
On Tue, 25 May 2004 22:23:30 GMT someone who may be [email protected]
(Patrick Herring) wrote this:-

>I meant a (physically) segregated cycle path is safe from
>driver-mistakes

Only if there are effective barriers between the two sorts
of road *and* they never cross. To comply with the latter
condition all buildings would have to have separate
entrances onto each type of road.

>It is traffic conditions that comes up most, in
>conversations I've had, as the main reason for not
>starting cycling.

As has been explained, there are a number of excuses for not
cycling. These are wheeled out according to the whims of the
person concerned.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number
F566DA0E I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK
government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.
 
On Tue, 25 May 2004 22:03:34 +0100 someone who may be "burt"
<[email protected]> wrote this:-

>I can recall reading a synopsis of a report which showed
>that a new section of segregated cycle path hadn't
>increased the number of people cycling, but existing
>cyclists changed their route if it was convenient.
>Southampton? Plymouth?

I have no doubt that this can be the case. However I am
talking about a network of paths, not just one. The network
is fairly dense and there are more people using them now
than there were some years ago, from my limited
observations.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number
F566DA0E I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK
government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.
 
On Wed, 26 May 2004 09:15:14 +0000 (UTC) someone who may be
[email protected] (Chris Malcolm) wrote this:-

>Another unacknowledged factor is snobbery.

I'm not sure that it is unacknowledged. Your posting
was certainly not the first time I have come across
this subject.

>And a couple I know who recently graduated from bicycles to
>motor car as main transport told me how surprised they were
>to discover that a lot more of the neighbours started
>talking to them, because without a car they were seen as
>"not quite our sort of people". The congratulations on the
>purchase of the car, and the questions abouts welfare,
>etc., made it quite clear that their jump in social status
>was by becoming car drivers.

The question is then whether the neighbours are worth
knowing better.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number
F566DA0E I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK
government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.
 
In article <[email protected]>,
John Hearns <[email protected]> writes:

> I disagree. Bikes are pretty personal. You adjust them to
> fit yourself, and people don't generally swap them around.
> Ever had one stolen?

Ever been to a city that makes "city" bikes available to
whover needs them?

> I counter you by proposing that its a misconception among
> non-cyclists that its common for people to borrow bikes,
> and that they are interchangeable.

In some more cycle-friendly countries, they may be much more
so than here.

> You certainly can borrow a bike, but would be
> uncomfortable till it gets adjusted to suit you. And
> they come in different sizes.

I don't see borrowing a bike as any different in principle
to borrowing a car (I expect to do the latter two weeks
hence, as it'll be the one week in the year when I'm doing
more than ample physical exercise without cycling and
travelling every day at times when no public transport is
available).

--
Nick Kew

Nick's manifesto: http://www.htmlhelp.com/~nick/
 
On Wed, 26 May 2004 11:17:00 +0100, Nick Kew wrote:

>
>
>> You certainly can borrow a bike, but would be
>> uncomfortable till it gets adjusted to suit you. And
>> they come in different sizes.
>
> I don't see borrowing a bike as any different in principle
> to borrowing a car
Cars are very standardised. The pedals are in a
standardised layout, as are (generally) the controls on
the steering wheel. Manuals cars mostly have the gears in
the same pattern (OK, you have to look where reverse is).
Seats adjust such that the majority of the population can
drive the car.

My contention is that most bicycles are more personal - you
tend to fit pedals you like, a saddle which suits you.
Frames come in different sizes depending on how tall you
are. Different gear changers. You might have fitted
handlebar ends etc.

I'm stretching an analogy here, but I think bikes could be
compared more to older cars which people restore by
themselves (sports, classic cars).

Of course, my argument falls down when you talk about
shopper style bikes.
 
"David Arditti" <[email protected]> wrote

[snip]

> So the British just happen to be the laziest nation
> in Europe,
hence low
> cycling levels? I doubt it. I would have thought it
> was pretty
generally
> accepted that the reason more people do not cycle is the
environment.

The interesting thing about Britain is how variable the
amount of cycling is. It ranges from Cambridge, with a
higher proportion of cyclists than Amsterdam [ref EU
"Cycling: the way ahead for towns and cities" 1999] down to
places in Wales and Scotland where its pretty neglegible.
The biggest deterent to cycling seems to be hills. This is
complicated by the fact that hilly places tend to be rainy
places, but it does seem to be the hills that do it This
correlates with experience in other countries. The Danes
reckon a 50 m hill halves cycling, and the one hilly part of
the nethrelands, down by Maastricht also does not have so
much cycling.

> Virtually every household has a bike but few people cycle
regularly. Many
> British people on holiday cycle in continental cities
> when they
would not
> dream of cycling at home. If we created the right
> environment in
British
> cities we would get high levels of cycling. A part of
> that is to
create the
> motor traffic-free cycle routes that most people who don't
currently cycle
> say are what it would take to get them cycling.

There's some interesting research about what it would take
to acheive the (then) British target of doubling cycling.
Building door to door bike paths for everybody wouldn't,
apparently, but paying people £3 per trip would, instantly [
go to www.regard.ac.uk and search for "cycling and urban
mode choice"]

You might say they are lying
> - that they are just lazy, and wouldn't cycle anyway. But
> evidence
of the
> few places in the UK where it has been well-done
> suggests to me
this is
> wrong.
> >> Effective networks of cycle tracks encourage a much
> >> larger
section of the
> >> population to cycle than we generally see on two wheels
> >> in the
UK.

I suppose it depends on how you measure "effective" - you
wouldn't want a circular definition. I would rate the top
few effective bike networks as

1. Stevenage
2. Harlow
3. Milton Keynes
4. Peterborough

I don't think they confirm the theory that effective
networks increase cycling.

> >
> > Evidence? Edinburgh spent large sums and the number of
> > utility cyclists apparently dropped.
> The evidence is very clear. The OECD international study
> published
in 1998
> "Safety of Vulnerable Road Users" (doc. no
DSTI/DOT/RTR/RS7(98)1/FINAL)
> shows how the age and gender profiles of cyclists vary
> from country
to
> country. This evidence was summarised in my & Paul
> Gannon's article
in the
> October 2002 London Cyclist. It shows how those developed
countries with
> high cycling levels, which are universally those with
well-developed cycle
> networks, all have an almost equal distribution of men and
> women on
bikes
> and a smooth linear decline of cycling with increasing
> age. Those
places
> with low cycling levels (like the UK) have a very large
> imbalance
between
> men and women cycling and fewer children and old people
> cycling. It
becomes
> obvious

Not to me, it doesn't.

There are many possible resons for this, of which I
quoted half a dozen or so when David and Paul first wrote
their article.

studying this that the only way we can substantially
increase
> cycling in the UK is to increase the uptake in the
under-represented groups:
> women, children and older people, and therefore we have
> to address
their
> concerns about the safety and pleasantness of the cycling
environment,
> rather than make policy for the group who already cycle
> here (the
young men
> between ages 20 and 30).

I'm 62. What do plan to do for me?

>
> What I am advocating primarily are urban on-road but
> segregated
cycle tracks
> on the Dutch pattern.

What the Dutch say about this idea is, "Evaluations,
however, showed that although a good infrastructure for
bicycle traffic is a basic condition, it hardly leads on its
own to an increase in cycle use." see McClintock, "Planning
for Cycling" 2002, p197, the article by Ton Welleman of the
Dutch Cycling Council

There are none of these in Edinburgh (so far as I am
> aware)

Edinburgh has several disused railway paths within the city

> ....and few in the UK, so discussions of UK cities
> (including
Stevenage &
> Milton Keynes) are of limited relevance to my argument.

I don't follow this. We shouldn't look at Stevenage and
Milton Keyes because they are different from other places?
Is David saying that Stevenage and MK are so good that we
couldn't acheive similar results elswhere?

Surely the important point about these cities are that they
are the best networks acheivable. If a solution doesn't work
there, it won't work anywhere. It is surely true that no
matter how much money is spent in London's Camden or Edgware
the resulting bike networks are bound to be ***vastly***
inferior to those of Stevenage or Milton Keynes

> >There is a long-term high user base in these countries.
> No, usage in 1950 was similar in the UK. The
> divergence has
occurred since
> then and corresponded to a divergence in planning policy.

Not true. Usage varies greatly now in the UK, and always
did. Cambridge beats Amsterdam now, and may well always have
done. There is little Cycling in Cardiff now, and there
probably always was little. I first saw the bike paths of
Denmark and the Netherlands in the 1940s, more than half a
century ago. Denmark and the Netherlands were already
renowned as cycling countries then. It was generally agreed
that they had lots of bike paths because they had lots of
bikes, and that they had lots of bikes because they were
flat. The evidence still points to that.

In other places,
> some Italian towns and cities particularly, in recent
> years a high
level of
> usage has been built up through appropriate planning
> measures where
there
> was not a high level of cycling before.

Turning "appropriate planning measures" back from newspeak
into plain English. I think David is saying that they made
use of competing modes difficult to impossible.
> >
> >
> >My friend Arnold is Dutch and rides 15 miles per day in
> >the UK; his view is that the cycle paths here are a
> >disaster because
we
> > lack the Dutch laws of presumed fault, and we lack Dutch
> > levels
of
> > cycling so the drivers for the most part aren't properly
> > aware of cyclists, and we lack Dutch planners who know
> > how to deal with junctions fractionally better than we
> > do, and we lack the Dutch commitment to putting bikes
> > first.

> He is right that there are various elements to it.
> There are
attitudinal
> changes needed that take a long time. But it is possible
> to get the
details
> of the engineering right with the right expertise and
> sufficient
money
> immediately.

I continually go to meetings of cycling officers where the
principle subject is to bemoan the inability of the
bureaucracy to spend the money they have, although, to their
great pride and astonishment, they did manage it this year.
As for engineering, and expertise, I imagine London gets the
pick of what is available (although they don't employ me,
thank goodness) Aren't the results wonderful.

> The knowledge exists, and we should be using it.

To do that requires project managers who can distinguish
knowledge from nonsense.

>
> John Hearns wrote:
> >Speed limits don't apply to bicycles
> Well perhaps they should, but actually, I don't think
> speed as such
is a big
> issue.

That seems to be a common view among those who advocate and
design facilities.
>
> >I will agree that we need leisure routes too, eg. along
> >the Thames
and
> >the Waterlink Way etc. in London, which will probably get
> >used by beginning commuters. But there's no way people in
> >(say) SE London will commute up to
the West
> >End if they cannot use the Old Kent Road.
>
> I don't advocate preventing cyclists from using any route
> they want
(and in
> Holland they are allowed to use all roads other than
> those of
motorway
> standard, just like here, and they do).

Not true. Cycle tracks are not roads.

But also, I don't accept the
> equation between cycle tracks or paths and "leisure use",
> or indeed "beginning commuters". If they are well enough
> done they are
"universal
> use", for leisure and commuting, and suitable for all
> cyclists of
almost all
> levels of experience and fitness.

That's probably a definition of "well done", and a fairly
good one too. If a substantial group - any substantial
group - of cyclists complain about a cycle facility then it
is not well done. Some cycle facilities mange to harm even
those cyclists who don't use them. That perhaps is the
ultimate in badness.

>
> I regularly cycle a journey of about 13 miles, Edgware to
> the City.
I need
> to do it quite quickly. The quickest way in the middle
> section is
to use the
> largely segregated Somers Town cycle route in Camden. I
> also use
some
> sections of segregated track in Islington. These are
> actually
beneficial to
> the faster cyclist since they allow one to avoid the
> congestion and
larger
> number of controlled junctions on the main roads, as well
> as being
obviously
> more pleasant to use for beginners. In the outer-London
> parts of my
journey,
> where there are no cycle facilities at all, I see
> few other
cyclists, and
> they are all fast. In south Camden, where cycle
> facilities are
present, the
> jump in cycling levels is very striking, and also the
> sudden spread
of types
> of cyclist, fast, slow, young and old, male and female.
>
> My experiences suggest to me that cycling uptake is a
> tremendously
localised
> phenomenon (on a scale of 1-2 miles) and depends in a very
> detailed
way on
> the quality of the environment (and not much on social
> factors such
as race
> or class). This is because people like John and I will
> always be a
small
> minority. Most people only want to cycle a couple of
> miles. I agree
that we
> should not do anything that gets unnecessarily in
> the way...

I don't like that word "unnecessarily". It seems to imply
that David knows that his vision must, necessarily must, do
things that necessarily get in the way.

of those who do
> want to cycle further and faster, and I believe good
> design would
not do
> that.
>
> David Arditti
 
On Wed, 26 May 2004 19:42:47 +0100 someone who may be "Jeremy
Parker" <[email protected]> wrote this:-

>The interesting thing about Britain is how variable the
>amount of cycling is. It ranges from Cambridge, with a
>higher proportion of cyclists than Amsterdam [ref EU
>"Cycling: the way ahead for towns and cities" 1999] down to
>places in Wales and Scotland where its pretty neglegible.

I think your comparison is English-centric. Wales and
Scotland are rather larger than Cambridge. Scotland is in
fact 1/3 of the land mass of the UK. Within both countries
there are large variations in the amount of cycling, just as
in England.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number
F566DA0E I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK
government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.
 
David Hansen wrote:
> On Wed, 26 May 2004 19:42:47 +0100 someone who may be
> "Jeremy Parker" <[email protected]> wrote this:-
>
>
>>The interesting thing about Britain is how variable the
>>amount of cycling is. It ranges from Cambridge, with a
>>higher proportion of cyclists than Amsterdam [ref EU
>>"Cycling: the way ahead for towns and cities" 1999] down
>>to places in Wales and Scotland where its pretty
>>neglegible.

> I think your comparison is English-centric. Wales and
> Scotland are rather larger than Cambridge.

Read again. Jeremy said places /in/ Wales and Scotland.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext.
33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177
Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email protected]
http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
On Thu, 27 May 2004 11:04:30 +0100, David Hansen wrote:

> On Wed, 26 May 2004 19:42:47 +0100 someone who may be
> "Jeremy Parker" <[email protected]> wrote this:-
>
>>The interesting thing about Britain is how variable the
>>amount of cycling is. It ranges from Cambridge, with a
>>higher proportion of cyclists than Amsterdam [ref EU
>>"Cycling: the way ahead for towns and cities" 1999] down
>>to places in Wales and Scotland where its pretty
>>neglegible.
>
> I think your comparison is English-centric. Wales and
> Scotland are rather larger than Cambridge. Scotland is in
> fact 1/3 of the land mass of the UK. Within both countries
> there are large variations in the amount of cycling, just
> as in England.

Yeah, Jeremy showed really his prejudices there. He could
just have easily written, "It ranges from Cambridge.....,
down to places where it's pretty negligible". (Fewer words,
therefore more easily written, in fact.)

Still, I suppose he didn't make the mistake of lumping
Northern Ireland into Britain.
--
Michael MacClancy Random putdown - "He has no enemies, but
is intensely disliked by his friends." -Oscar Wilde
www.macclancy.demon.co.uk www.macclancy.co.uk
 
On Thu, 27 May 2004 11:20:28 +0100, Peter Clinch wrote:

> David Hansen wrote:
>> On Wed, 26 May 2004 19:42:47 +0100 someone who may be
>> "Jeremy Parker" <[email protected]> wrote this:-
>>
>>
>>>The interesting thing about Britain is how variable the
>>>amount of cycling is. It ranges from Cambridge, with a
>>>higher proportion of cyclists than Amsterdam [ref EU
>>>"Cycling: the way ahead for towns and cities" 1999] down
>>>to places in Wales and Scotland where its pretty
>>>neglegible.
>
>> I think your comparison is English-centric. Wales and
>> Scotland are rather larger than Cambridge.
>
> Read again. Jeremy said places /in/ Wales and Scotland.
>
> Pete.

Yes, but it's still evidence of a bias. I'm sure there are
places in England where there's very little cycling.

--
Michael MacClancy Random putdown - "I've just learned about
his illness. Let's hope it's nothing trivial." - Irvin S.
Cobb www.macclancy.demon.co.uk www.macclancy.co.uk
 
"Jeremy Parker" <[email protected]>typed

> In other places,
> > some Italian towns and cities particularly, in recent
> > years a high
> level of
> > usage has been built up through appropriate planning
> > measures where
> there
> > was not a high level of cycling before.

> Turning "appropriate planning measures" back from newspeak
> into plain English. I think David is saying that they made
> use of competing modes difficult to impossible.

I don't think so. David and I were in Northern Italy a few
weeks ago and were struck by the number of cyclists, (both
leisure and utility) on the roads. The terrain was certainly
not flat outside Meran(o) but the planners had made the
environment *much* less hostile than we find locally. There
were some dedicated cycle tracks. Cyclists were mostly on
the road and the motorists were patient and tolerant. Our
hosts' 6-year-old daughter was allowed to cycle to the
playground (about 3/4 mile) by herself on the road. Her road
skill weren't too clever.

By contrast, David had real harrassment cycling legally (and
skillfully) to Woolworth's yesterday.

> I continually go to meetings of cycling officers where the
> principle subject is to bemoan the inability of the
> bureaucracy to spend the money they have, although, to
> their great pride and astonishment, they did manage it
> this year. As for engineering, and expertise, I imagine
> London gets the pick of what is available (although they
> don't employ me, thank goodness) Aren't the results
> wonderful.

> > The knowledge exists, and we should be using it.

> To do that requires project managers who can distinguish
> knowledge from nonsense.

Too true!

> But also, I don't accept the
> > equation between cycle tracks or paths and "leisure
> > use", or indeed "beginning commuters". If they are well
> > enough done they are
> "universal
> > use", for leisure and commuting, and suitable for all
> > cyclists of
> almost all
> > levels of experience and fitness.

> That's probably a definition of "well done", and a fairly
> good one too. If a substantial group - any substantial
> group - of cyclists complain about a cycle facility then
> it is not well done. Some cycle facilities mange to harm
> even those cyclists who don't use them. That perhaps is
> the ultimate in badness.

Yup!

--
Helen D. Vecht: [email protected] Edgware.
 

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