The _Observer_ on "deadly" bike lanes

Discussion in 'UK and Europe' started by Bikerider7, May 23, 2004.

  1. David Hansen

    David Hansen Guest

    On 23 May 2004 12:35:07 -0700 someone who may be
    [email protected]oo.com (bikerider7) wrote this:-

    >Scandal of our deadly cycle lanes

    I note that http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/traffic/articles/-
    10969722?source=Evening%20Standard asserts that, "Ms
    McCreery died after colliding with a bus on 10 May."

    I suspect that this is an outright lie. Had she collided
    with the bus then I suspect she would still be alive. I
    suspect that the bus driver collided with her, but the
    mass media is careful to avoid stating the truth in this
    sort of case.

    --
    David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number
    F566DA0E I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK
    government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.
     


  2. ----- Original Message -----
    From: "David Hansen" <[email protected]>
    Newsgroups: uk.rec.cycling
    Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 12:58 PM
    Subject: Re: The _Observer_ on "deadly" bike lanes

    > On Thu, 27 May 2004 11:20:28 +0100 someone who may be
    > Peter Clinch
    > <[email protected]> wrote this:-
    >
    > >Read again. Jeremy said places /in/ Wales and Scotland.
    >
    > There are places in England where cycling is less
    > than places in Wales and Scotland. Jeremy's
    > comparison is bogus.
    >

    Looking at DfT publication "Cycling in Great Britain",
    August 1996, we can see the highest and lowest modal splits
    for bike commuting (1991 census). They are

    1. Cambridge
    2. York
    3. Oxford
    4. Boston
    5. Gosport ......
    6. Blaenau Gwent
    7. Rhondda
    8. Shetland Islands
    9. Monklands
    10. Cumbernauld and Kilsyth
    11. (and last, with 0.1%) Inverclyde

    Jeremy Parker
     
  3. Paul Rudin

    Paul Rudin Guest

    "Jeremy Parker" <[email protected]> writes:

    > ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Hansen"
    > <[email protected]> Newsgroups:
    > uk.rec.cycling Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 12:58 PM
    > Subject: Re: The _Observer_ on "deadly" bike lanes
    >
    >
    > > On Thu, 27 May 2004 11:20:28 +0100 someone who may be
    > > Peter Clinch
    > > <[email protected]> wrote this:-
    > >
    > > >Read again. Jeremy said places /in/ Wales and Scotland.
    > >
    > > There are places in England where cycling is less than
    > > places in Wales and Scotland. Jeremy's comparison is
    > > bogus.
    > >
    >
    > Looking at DfT publication "Cycling in Great Britain",
    > August 1996, we can see the highest and lowest modal
    > splits for bike commuting (1991 census). They are
    >
    > 1. Cambridge
    > 2. York
    > 3. Oxford

    I wonder whether the Oxford and Cambridge figures
    include students.

    Not that students don't count, but "commuting" when I was an
    undergraduate (in Cambridge) involved going about 50m.
     
  4. Gawnsoft

    Gawnsoft Guest

    On Fri, 28 May 2004 23:18:05 +0100, "Jeremy Parker"
    <[email protected]> wrote (more or less):

    >
    >----- Original Message ----- From: "David Hansen"
    ><[email protected]> Newsgroups:
    >uk.rec.cycling Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 12:58 PM
    >Subject: Re: The _Observer_ on "deadly" bike lanes
    >
    >
    >> On Thu, 27 May 2004 11:20:28 +0100 someone who may be
    >> Peter Clinch
    >> <[email protected]> wrote this:-
    >>
    >> >Read again. Jeremy said places /in/ Wales and Scotland.
    >>
    >> There are places in England where cycling is less
    >> than places in Wales and Scotland. Jeremy's
    >> comparison is bogus.
    >>
    >
    >Looking at DfT publication "Cycling in Great Britain",
    >August 1996, we can see the highest and lowest modal splits
    >for bike commuting (1991 census). They are
    >
    > 1. Cambridge
    > 2. York
    > 3. Oxford
    > 4. Boston
    > 5. Gosport ......
    >453. Blaenau Gwent
    >454. Rhondda
    >455. Shetland Islands
    >456. Monklands
    >457. Cumbernauld and Kilsyth
    >458. (and last, with 0.1%) Inverclyde

    Bizarre - I was sure that Millport and Great Cumbrae are in
    Inverclyde.

    >Jeremy Parker
    >
    >

    --
    Cheers, Euan Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
    Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122 Smalltalk
    links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk)
    http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk
     
  5. Tony Raven

    Tony Raven Guest

    David Hansen wrote:
    > On 23 May 2004 12:35:07 -0700 someone who may be
    > [email protected] (bikerider7) wrote this:-
    >
    >> Scandal of our deadly cycle lanes
    >
    > I note that
    >
    http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/traffic/articles/10969722?sou-
    rce=Evening%20Standard
    > asserts that, "Ms McCreery died after colliding with a bus
    > on 10 May."
    >
    > I suspect that this is an outright lie. Had she collided
    > with the bus then I suspect she would still be alive. I
    > suspect that the bus driver collided with her, but the
    > mass media is careful to avoid stating the truth in this
    > sort of case.

    My dictionary has collide as the violent coming together of
    two moving bodies. I think therefore that it does not have
    the implication you think. I would agree if it said she had
    hit the bus but with collide the implication is neutral IMO

    Tony
     
  6. On 29 May 2004 04:27:39 +0100, Paul Rudin wrote:

    > "Jeremy Parker" <[email protected]> writes:
    >
    >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Hansen"
    >> <[email protected]> Newsgroups:
    >> uk.rec.cycling Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 12:58 PM
    >> Subject: Re: The _Observer_ on "deadly" bike lanes
    >>
    >>
    >>> On Thu, 27 May 2004 11:20:28 +0100 someone who may be
    >>> Peter Clinch
    >>> <[email protected]> wrote this:-
    >>>
    >>> >Read again. Jeremy said places /in/ Wales and Scotland.
    >>>
    >>> There are places in England where cycling is less than
    >>> places in Wales and Scotland. Jeremy's comparison is
    >>> bogus.
    >>>
    >>
    >> Looking at DfT publication "Cycling in Great Britain",
    >> August 1996, we can see the highest and lowest modal
    >> splits for bike commuting (1991 census). They are
    >>
    >> 1. Cambridge
    >> 2. York
    >> 3. Oxford
    >
    > I wonder whether the Oxford and Cambridge figures include
    > students.
    >

    No, they're not. The report says the following:

    Students are not included in these data (unless they are
    also working), but it is likely that their traditionally
    high use of bicycles influences the usage of non-students,
    and that more facilities are available to cyclists in these
    areas. It is also possible that congested streets and
    parking difficulties in these popular tourist cities
    discourage car use.

    --
    Michael MacClancy Random putdown - "He loves nature in spite
    of what it did to him." - Forrest Tucker
    www.macclancy.demon.co.uk www.macclancy.co.uk
     
  7. Tumbleweed

    Tumbleweed Guest

    "Tony Raven" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > David Hansen wrote:
    > > On 23 May 2004 12:35:07 -0700 someone who may be
    > > [email protected] (bikerider7) wrote this:-
    > >
    > >> Scandal of our deadly cycle lanes
    > >
    > > I note that
    > >
    >
    http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/traffic/articles/10969722?sou-
    rce=Evening%20Standard
    > > asserts that, "Ms McCreery died after colliding with a
    > > bus on 10 May."
    > >
    > > I suspect that this is an outright lie. Had she collided
    > > with the bus then I suspect she would still be alive. I
    > > suspect that the bus driver collided with her, but the
    > > mass media is careful to avoid stating the truth in this
    > > sort of case.
    >
    > My dictionary has collide as the violent coming together
    > of two moving
    bodies.
    > I think therefore that it does not have the implication
    > you think. I
    would
    > agree if it said she had hit the bus but with collide the
    > implication is neutral IMO
    >
    > Tony
    >

    I disagree, I think it does give a not so subtle/subliminal
    implication it was her that did it, ie *she* collided,
    rather than someone else collided into her.

    --
    Tumbleweed

    Remove my socks for email address
     
  8. Gawnsoft

    Gawnsoft Guest

    On Fri, 28 May 2004 22:36:44 +0100, "Tony Raven"
    <[email protected]> wrote (more or less):

    >David Hansen wrote:
    >> On 23 May 2004 12:35:07 -0700 someone who may be
    >> [email protected] (bikerider7) wrote this:-
    >>
    >>> Scandal of our deadly cycle lanes
    >>
    >> I note that
    >>
    >http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/traffic/articles/10969722?so-
    >urce=Evening%20Standard
    >> asserts that, "Ms McCreery died after colliding with a
    >> bus on 10 May."
    >>
    >> I suspect that this is an outright lie. Had she collided
    >> with the bus then I suspect she would still be alive. I
    >> suspect that the bus driver collided with her, but the
    >> mass media is careful to avoid stating the truth in this
    >> sort of case.
    >
    >My dictionary has collide as the violent coming together of
    >two moving bodies. I think therefore that it does not have
    >the implication you think. I would agree if it said she had
    >hit the bus but with collide the implication is neutral IMO

    I think 'in collision with' is neutral.

    'collided with' is in the active voice, and so has a strong
    connotation of active participation.

    --
    Cheers, Euan Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
    Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122 Smalltalk
    links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk)
    http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk
     
  9. Ian G Batten

    Ian G Batten Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    Richard <[email protected]> wrote:
    > I also recall a report whereby a young whippersnapper,
    > doing something excessive on a motorway, was pulled over.
    > He was asked, "Who do you think you are, Nigel Mansell?"
    > Which was indeed his name, although he wasn't the NM of
    > bushy moustache fame.

    The story is told, with reasonable amounts of verification
    from some of the people involved, of the car driven by
    Ayrton Senna, with Mauricio Gugelmin in the passenger seat
    --- who was the McLaren test driver that season --- being
    stopped on the way from Didcot to Heathrow. Ayrton was, of
    course, asked ``Who do you think you are, Nigel Mansell?''.
    He was not 'appy.

    ian
     
  10. Tony Raven

    Tony Raven Guest

    Tumbleweed wrote:
    >
    > I disagree, I think it does give a not so
    > subtle/subliminal implication it was her that did it,
    > ie *she* collided, rather than someone else collided
    > into her.

    FWIW according to the other thread the CTC comment was
    "Vicki McCreery died following a collision with a bus"

    Tony
     
  11. Tumbleweed

    Tumbleweed Guest

    "Tony Raven" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Tumbleweed wrote:
    > >
    > > I disagree, I think it does give a not so
    > > subtle/subliminal implication
    it
    > > was her that did it, ie *she* collided, rather than
    > > someone else collided into her.
    >
    > FWIW according to the other thread the CTC comment was
    > "Vicki McCreery died following a collision with a bus"
    >
    > Tony
    >

    *That* sounds neutral.

    --
    Tumbleweed

    Remove my socks for email address
     
  12. Tony Raven

    Tony Raven Guest

    Tumbleweed wrote:
    > "Tony Raven" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
    > berlin.de...
    >> Tumbleweed wrote:
    >>>
    >>> I disagree, I think it does give a not so
    >>> subtle/subliminal implication
    > it
    >>> was her that did it, ie *she* collided, rather than
    >>> someone else collided into her.
    >>
    >> FWIW according to the other thread the CTC comment was
    >> "Vicki McCreery died following a collision with a bus"
    >>
    >> Tony
    >>
    >
    > *That* sounds neutral.

    So IYO

    "Ms McCreery died after colliding with a bus." has a
    clear bias

    and

    "Vicki McCreery died following a collision with a bus"
    is neutral

    Curious

    Tony
     
  13. Simon Brooke

    Simon Brooke Guest

    in message <[email protected]>, Jeremy Parker
    ('[email protected]') wrote:

    > "David Arditti" <[email protected]> wrote
    >
    > [snip]
    >
    >> So the British just happen to be the laziest nation in
    >> Europe,
    > hence low
    >> cycling levels? I doubt it. I would have thought it
    >> was pretty
    > generally
    >> accepted that the reason more people do not cycle is the
    > environment.
    >
    > The interesting thing about Britain is how variable the
    > amount of cycling is. It ranges from Cambridge, with a
    > higher proportion of cyclists than Amsterdam [ref EU
    > "Cycling: the way ahead for towns and cities" 1999] down
    > to places in Wales and Scotland where its pretty
    > neglegible.

    Strange places on the corners of maps where you can write
    'here be monsters' and no-one will have been there to
    contradict you, you mean? I can't comment about Wales
    (although we seem to have plenty of Welsh posters here) but
    Scotland is a big place and the amount of cycling varies
    from place to place. Even here in Galloway it varies. In
    Kirkcudbright, there is a lot of casual utility cycling. In
    Castle Douglas, a town of very similar size, very little.
    But it really isn't an accident that Edinburgh has the UK's
    best known and most discussed LBS - there's a lot of cycling
    happens in Edinburgh.

    --
    [email protected] (Simon Brooke)
    http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

    ;; may contain traces of nuts, bolts or washers.
     
  14. On Wed, 26 May 2004 19:42:47 +0100,
    Jeremy Parker <[email protected]> wrote:
    > I suppose it depends on how you measure "effective" - you
    > wouldn't want a circular definition. I would rate the top
    > few effective bike networks as
    >
    > 1. Stevenage
    > 2. Harlow
    > 3. Milton Keynes
    > 4. Peterborough

    It is interesting to see you put Peterborough in that list.
    When I was cycling to work I never used the cycle paths.

    Not that they are all bad - some are pretty good, but the
    good ones went bugger all near where I wanted to go.

    Peterborough has put a lot of work into leisure cycling -
    The Green Wheel has some very pleasant bits, but really
    needs to look at most of the on-road cycle lanes and shared
    use cycle paths.

    --
    Andy Leighton => [email protected] "The Lord is my
    shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
    - Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_
     
  15. On Sat, 29 May 2004 08:19:45 +0100, Tony Raven wrote:

    > Tumbleweed wrote:
    >> "Tony Raven" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
    >> berlin.de...
    >>> Tumbleweed wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>> I disagree, I think it does give a not so
    >>>> subtle/subliminal implication
    >> it
    >>>> was her that did it, ie *she* collided, rather than
    >>>> someone else collided into her.
    >>>
    >>> FWIW according to the other thread the CTC comment was
    >>> "Vicki McCreery died following a collision with a bus"
    >>>
    >>> Tony
    >>>
    >>
    >> *That* sounds neutral.
    >
    > So IYO
    >
    > "Ms McCreery died after colliding with a bus." has a
    > clear bias
    >
    > and
    >
    > "Vicki McCreery died following a collision with a bus"
    > is neutral
    >
    > Curious
    >
    > Tony

    Is there a sort of blame progession here?

    She died after ... ... she hit a bus ... she collided with a
    bus ... she was in a collision with a bus ... she and a bus
    collided ... a bus was in a collision with her ... a bus
    collided with her ... a bus hit her
    --
    Michael MacClancy Random putdown - "I feel so miserable
    without you, it's almost like having you here." -Stephen
    Bishop www.macclancy.demon.co.uk www.macclancy.co.uk
     
  16. Tumbleweed

    Tumbleweed Guest

    "Tony Raven" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Tumbleweed wrote:
    > > "Tony Raven" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > >> Tumbleweed wrote:
    > >>>
    > >>> I disagree, I think it does give a not so
    > >>> subtle/subliminal
    implication
    > > it
    > >>> was her that did it, ie *she* collided, rather than
    > >>> someone else collided into her.
    > >>
    > >> FWIW according to the other thread the CTC comment was
    > >> "Vicki McCreery died following a collision with a bus"
    > >>
    > >> Tony
    > >>
    > >
    > > *That* sounds neutral.
    >
    > So IYO
    >
    > "Ms McCreery died after colliding with a bus." has a
    > clear bias
    >
    > and
    >
    > "Vicki McCreery died following a collision with a bus"
    > is neutral
    >
    > Curious
    >
    > Tony
    >

    Not at all.

    The first implies she was the one doing the colliding (or at
    least, the active participant in it), the second is neutral
    as to who the active parties wre (ie, from a POV of
    causality). Subtle language, English.

    --
    Tumbleweed

    Remove my socks for email address
     
  17. David Hansen

    David Hansen Guest

    On Thu, 27 May 2004 12:35:09 GMT someone who may be Simon Brooke
    <[email protected]> wrote this:-

    >But it really isn't an accident that Edinburgh has the UK's
    >best known and most discussed LBS - there's a lot of
    >cycling happens in Edinburgh.

    It is also no accident that Edinburgh has a local cycling
    pressure group that is second to none. I congratulate all
    those who give up their time to get all the work done. The
    work included the first physical work on what is now the
    North Edinburgh path network, work which was eventually
    taken over by the Council.

    --
    David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number
    F566DA0E I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK
    government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.
     
  18. Andymorris

    Andymorris Guest

    Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:
    >
    > I don't think so. David and I were in Northern Italy a few
    > weeks ago and were struck by the number of cyclists, (both
    > leisure and utility) on the roads. The terrain was
    > certainly not flat outside Meran(o) but the planners had
    > made the environment *much* less hostile than we find
    > locally. There were some dedicated cycle tracks. Cyclists
    > were mostly on the road and the motorists were patient and
    > tolerant. Our hosts' 6-year-old daughter was allowed to
    > cycle to the playground (about 3/4
    > mile) by herself on the road. Her road skill weren't too
    > clever.
    >

    Do you think the kudos associated with cycle sports in Italy
    rubs off on leisure and utility cycling.

    Does an italian middle age fat bloke popping down the shops
    on his bianchi have a little bit of a Fausto Coppi fantasy,
    the way a british bloke going to B&Q in his mondaeo might
    have a Colin Macrae moment?

    --
    Andy Morris

    AndyAtJinkasDotFreeserve.Co.UK

    Love this:
    Put an end to Outlook Express's messy quotes
    http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/
     
  19. David Hansen

    David Hansen Guest

    On Thu, 27 May 2004 11:20:28 +0100 someone who may be Peter Clinch
    <[email protected]> wrote this:-

    >Read again. Jeremy said places /in/ Wales and Scotland.

    There are places in England where cycling is less than
    places in Wales and Scotland. Jeremy's comparison is bogus.

    --
    David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number
    F566DA0E I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK
    government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.
     
  20. "AndyMorris" <[email protected]> writes:

    >Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:

    >> David and I were in Northern Italy a few weeks ago and
    >> were struck by the number of cyclists, (both leisure and
    >> utility) on the roads. The terrain was certainly not flat
    >> outside Meran(o) but the planners had made the
    >> environment *much* less hostile than we find locally.
    >> There were some dedicated cycle tracks. Cyclists were
    >> mostly on the road and the motorists were patient and
    >> tolerant. Our hosts' 6-year-old daughter was allowed to
    >> cycle to the playground (about 3/4
    >> mile) by herself on the road. Her road skill weren't too
    >> clever.

    >Do you think the kudos associated with cycle sports in
    >Italy rubs off on leisure and utility cycling.

    >Does an italian middle age fat bloke popping down the shops
    >on his bianchi have a little bit of a Fausto Coppi fantasy,
    >the way a british bloke going to B&Q in his mondaeo might
    >have a Colin Macrae moment?

    Is that similar to the old "Stirling Moss" moment, as when
    the police pulled you up and asked "Who you do you think you
    are then, Stirling Moss?"
    --
    Chris Malcolm [email protected] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
    IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
    [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
     
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