The _Observer_ on "deadly" bike lanes

[David Hansen]

On 23 May 2004 12:35:07 -0700 someone who may be
[email protected] (bikerider7) wrote this:-

>Scandal of our deadly cycle lanes

I note that http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/traffic/articles/-
10969722?source=Evening%20Standard asserts that, "Ms
McCreery died after colliding with a bus on 10 May."

I suspect that this is an outright lie. Had she collided
with the bus then I suspect she would still be alive. I
suspect that the bus driver collided with her, but the
mass media is careful to avoid stating the truth in this
sort of case.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number
F566DA0E I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK
government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

 

[Jeremy Parker]

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Hansen" <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: uk.rec.cycling
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 12:58 PM
Subject: Re: The _Observer_ on "deadly" bike lanes

> On Thu, 27 May 2004 11:20:28 +0100 someone who may be
> Peter Clinch
> <[email protected]> wrote this:-
>
> >Read again. Jeremy said places /in/ Wales and Scotland.
>
> There are places in England where cycling is less
> than places in Wales and Scotland. Jeremy's
> comparison is bogus.
>

Looking at DfT publication "Cycling in Great Britain",
August 1996, we can see the highest and lowest modal splits
for bike commuting (1991 census). They are

1. Cambridge
2. York
3. Oxford
4. Boston
5. Gosport ......
6. Blaenau Gwent
7. Rhondda
8. Shetland Islands
9. Monklands
10. Cumbernauld and Kilsyth
11. (and last, with 0.1%) Inverclyde

Jeremy Parker

 

[Paul Rudin]

"Jeremy Parker" <[email protected]> writes:

> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Hansen"
> <[email protected]> Newsgroups:
> uk.rec.cycling Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 12:58 PM
> Subject: Re: The _Observer_ on "deadly" bike lanes
>
>
> > On Thu, 27 May 2004 11:20:28 +0100 someone who may be
> > Peter Clinch
> > <[email protected]> wrote this:-
> >
> > >Read again. Jeremy said places /in/ Wales and Scotland.
> >
> > There are places in England where cycling is less than
> > places in Wales and Scotland. Jeremy's comparison is
> > bogus.
> >
>
> Looking at DfT publication "Cycling in Great Britain",
> August 1996, we can see the highest and lowest modal
> splits for bike commuting (1991 census). They are
>
> 1. Cambridge
> 2. York
> 3. Oxford

I wonder whether the Oxford and Cambridge figures
include students.

Not that students don't count, but "commuting" when I was an
undergraduate (in Cambridge) involved going about 50m.

 

[Gawnsoft]

On Fri, 28 May 2004 23:18:05 +0100, "Jeremy Parker"
<[email protected]> wrote (more or less):

>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "David Hansen"
><[email protected]> Newsgroups:
>uk.rec.cycling Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 12:58 PM
>Subject: Re: The _Observer_ on "deadly" bike lanes
>
>
>> On Thu, 27 May 2004 11:20:28 +0100 someone who may be
>> Peter Clinch
>> <[email protected]> wrote this:-
>>
>> >Read again. Jeremy said places /in/ Wales and Scotland.
>>
>> There are places in England where cycling is less
>> than places in Wales and Scotland. Jeremy's
>> comparison is bogus.
>>
>
>Looking at DfT publication "Cycling in Great Britain",
>August 1996, we can see the highest and lowest modal splits
>for bike commuting (1991 census). They are
>
> 1. Cambridge
> 2. York
> 3. Oxford
> 4. Boston
> 5. Gosport ......
>453. Blaenau Gwent
>454. Rhondda
>455. Shetland Islands
>456. Monklands
>457. Cumbernauld and Kilsyth
>458. (and last, with 0.1%) Inverclyde

Bizarre - I was sure that Millport and Great Cumbrae are in
Inverclyde.

>Jeremy Parker
>
>

--
Cheers, Euan Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122 Smalltalk
links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk)
http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk

 

[Tony Raven]

David Hansen wrote:
> On 23 May 2004 12:35:07 -0700 someone who may be
> [email protected] (bikerider7) wrote this:-
>
>> Scandal of our deadly cycle lanes
>
> I note that
>
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/traffic/articles/10969722?sou-
rce=Evening%20Standard
> asserts that, "Ms McCreery died after colliding with a bus
> on 10 May."
>
> I suspect that this is an outright lie. Had she collided
> with the bus then I suspect she would still be alive. I
> suspect that the bus driver collided with her, but the
> mass media is careful to avoid stating the truth in this
> sort of case.

My dictionary has collide as the violent coming together of
two moving bodies. I think therefore that it does not have
the implication you think. I would agree if it said she had
hit the bus but with collide the implication is neutral IMO

Tony

 

[Michael Macclan]

On 29 May 2004 04:27:39 +0100, Paul Rudin wrote:

> "Jeremy Parker" <[email protected]> writes:
>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Hansen"
>> <[email protected]> Newsgroups:
>> uk.rec.cycling Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 12:58 PM
>> Subject: Re: The _Observer_ on "deadly" bike lanes
>>
>>
>>> On Thu, 27 May 2004 11:20:28 +0100 someone who may be
>>> Peter Clinch
>>> <[email protected]> wrote this:-
>>>
>>> >Read again. Jeremy said places /in/ Wales and Scotland.
>>>
>>> There are places in England where cycling is less than
>>> places in Wales and Scotland. Jeremy's comparison is
>>> bogus.
>>>
>>
>> Looking at DfT publication "Cycling in Great Britain",
>> August 1996, we can see the highest and lowest modal
>> splits for bike commuting (1991 census). They are
>>
>> 1. Cambridge
>> 2. York
>> 3. Oxford
>
> I wonder whether the Oxford and Cambridge figures include
> students.
>

No, they're not. The report says the following:

Students are not included in these data (unless they are
also working), but it is likely that their traditionally
high use of bicycles influences the usage of non-students,
and that more facilities are available to cyclists in these
areas. It is also possible that congested streets and
parking difficulties in these popular tourist cities
discourage car use.

--
Michael MacClancy Random putdown - "He loves nature in spite
of what it did to him." - Forrest Tucker
www.macclancy.demon.co.uk www.macclancy.co.uk

 

[Tumbleweed]

"Tony Raven" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> David Hansen wrote:
> > On 23 May 2004 12:35:07 -0700 someone who may be
> > [email protected] (bikerider7) wrote this:-
> >
> >> Scandal of our deadly cycle lanes
> >
> > I note that
> >
>
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/traffic/articles/10969722?sou-
rce=Evening%20Standard
> > asserts that, "Ms McCreery died after colliding with a
> > bus on 10 May."
> >
> > I suspect that this is an outright lie. Had she collided
> > with the bus then I suspect she would still be alive. I
> > suspect that the bus driver collided with her, but the
> > mass media is careful to avoid stating the truth in this
> > sort of case.
>
> My dictionary has collide as the violent coming together
> of two moving
bodies.
> I think therefore that it does not have the implication
> you think. I
would
> agree if it said she had hit the bus but with collide the
> implication is neutral IMO
>
> Tony
>

I disagree, I think it does give a not so subtle/subliminal
implication it was her that did it, ie *she* collided,
rather than someone else collided into her.

--
Tumbleweed

Remove my socks for email address

 

[Gawnsoft]

On Fri, 28 May 2004 22:36:44 +0100, "Tony Raven"
<[email protected]> wrote (more or less):

>David Hansen wrote:
>> On 23 May 2004 12:35:07 -0700 someone who may be
>> [email protected] (bikerider7) wrote this:-
>>
>>> Scandal of our deadly cycle lanes
>>
>> I note that
>>
>http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/traffic/articles/10969722?so-
>urce=Evening%20Standard
>> asserts that, "Ms McCreery died after colliding with a
>> bus on 10 May."
>>
>> I suspect that this is an outright lie. Had she collided
>> with the bus then I suspect she would still be alive. I
>> suspect that the bus driver collided with her, but the
>> mass media is careful to avoid stating the truth in this
>> sort of case.
>
>My dictionary has collide as the violent coming together of
>two moving bodies. I think therefore that it does not have
>the implication you think. I would agree if it said she had
>hit the bus but with collide the implication is neutral IMO

I think 'in collision with' is neutral.

'collided with' is in the active voice, and so has a strong
connotation of active participation.

--
Cheers, Euan Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122 Smalltalk
links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk)
http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk

 

[Ian G Batten]

In article <[email protected]>,
Richard <[email protected]> wrote:
> I also recall a report whereby a young whippersnapper,
> doing something excessive on a motorway, was pulled over.
> He was asked, "Who do you think you are, Nigel Mansell?"
> Which was indeed his name, although he wasn't the NM of
> bushy moustache fame.

The story is told, with reasonable amounts of verification
from some of the people involved, of the car driven by
Ayrton Senna, with Mauricio Gugelmin in the passenger seat
--- who was the McLaren test driver that season --- being
stopped on the way from Didcot to Heathrow. Ayrton was, of
course, asked ``Who do you think you are, Nigel Mansell?''.
He was not 'appy.

ian

 

[Tony Raven]

Tumbleweed wrote:
>
> I disagree, I think it does give a not so
> subtle/subliminal implication it was her that did it,
> ie *she* collided, rather than someone else collided
> into her.

FWIW according to the other thread the CTC comment was
"Vicki McCreery died following a collision with a bus"

Tony

 

[Tumbleweed]

"Tony Raven" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Tumbleweed wrote:
> >
> > I disagree, I think it does give a not so
> > subtle/subliminal implication
it
> > was her that did it, ie *she* collided, rather than
> > someone else collided into her.
>
> FWIW according to the other thread the CTC comment was
> "Vicki McCreery died following a collision with a bus"
>
> Tony
>

*That* sounds neutral.

--
Tumbleweed

Remove my socks for email address

 

[Tony Raven]

Tumbleweed wrote:
> "Tony Raven" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:2hpv07Fg4eg5U1@uni-
> berlin.de...
>> Tumbleweed wrote:
>>>
>>> I disagree, I think it does give a not so
>>> subtle/subliminal implication
> it
>>> was her that did it, ie *she* collided, rather than
>>> someone else collided into her.
>>
>> FWIW according to the other thread the CTC comment was
>> "Vicki McCreery died following a collision with a bus"
>>
>> Tony
>>
>
> *That* sounds neutral.

So IYO

"Ms McCreery died after colliding with a bus." has a
clear bias

and

"Vicki McCreery died following a collision with a bus"
is neutral

Curious

Tony

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, Jeremy Parker
('[email protected]') wrote:

> "David Arditti" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> [snip]
>
>> So the British just happen to be the laziest nation in
>> Europe,
> hence low
>> cycling levels? I doubt it. I would have thought it
>> was pretty
> generally
>> accepted that the reason more people do not cycle is the
> environment.
>
> The interesting thing about Britain is how variable the
> amount of cycling is. It ranges from Cambridge, with a
> higher proportion of cyclists than Amsterdam [ref EU
> "Cycling: the way ahead for towns and cities" 1999] down
> to places in Wales and Scotland where its pretty
> neglegible.

Strange places on the corners of maps where you can write
'here be monsters' and no-one will have been there to
contradict you, you mean? I can't comment about Wales
(although we seem to have plenty of Welsh posters here) but
Scotland is a big place and the amount of cycling varies
from place to place. Even here in Galloway it varies. In
Kirkcudbright, there is a lot of casual utility cycling. In
Castle Douglas, a town of very similar size, very little.
But it really isn't an accident that Edinburgh has the UK's
best known and most discussed LBS - there's a lot of cycling
happens in Edinburgh.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke)
http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; may contain traces of nuts, bolts or washers.

 

[Andy Leighton]

On Wed, 26 May 2004 19:42:47 +0100,
Jeremy Parker <[email protected]> wrote:
> I suppose it depends on how you measure "effective" - you
> wouldn't want a circular definition. I would rate the top
> few effective bike networks as
>
> 1. Stevenage
> 2. Harlow
> 3. Milton Keynes
> 4. Peterborough

It is interesting to see you put Peterborough in that list.
When I was cycling to work I never used the cycle paths.

Not that they are all bad - some are pretty good, but the
good ones went bugger all near where I wanted to go.

Peterborough has put a lot of work into leisure cycling -
The Green Wheel has some very pleasant bits, but really
needs to look at most of the on-road cycle lanes and shared
use cycle paths.

--
Andy Leighton => [email protected] "The Lord is my
shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
- Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_

 

[Michael Macclan]

On Sat, 29 May 2004 08:19:45 +0100, Tony Raven wrote:

> Tumbleweed wrote:
>> "Tony Raven" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:2hpv07Fg4eg5U1@uni-
>> berlin.de...
>>> Tumbleweed wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I disagree, I think it does give a not so
>>>> subtle/subliminal implication
>> it
>>>> was her that did it, ie *she* collided, rather than
>>>> someone else collided into her.
>>>
>>> FWIW according to the other thread the CTC comment was
>>> "Vicki McCreery died following a collision with a bus"
>>>
>>> Tony
>>>
>>
>> *That* sounds neutral.
>
> So IYO
>
> "Ms McCreery died after colliding with a bus." has a
> clear bias
>
> and
>
> "Vicki McCreery died following a collision with a bus"
> is neutral
>
> Curious
>
> Tony

Is there a sort of blame progession here?

She died after ... ... she hit a bus ... she collided with a
bus ... she was in a collision with a bus ... she and a bus
collided ... a bus was in a collision with her ... a bus
collided with her ... a bus hit her
--
Michael MacClancy Random putdown - "I feel so miserable
without you, it's almost like having you here." -Stephen
Bishop www.macclancy.demon.co.uk www.macclancy.co.uk

 

[Tumbleweed]

"Tony Raven" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Tumbleweed wrote:
> > "Tony Raven" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >> Tumbleweed wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I disagree, I think it does give a not so
> >>> subtle/subliminal
implication
> > it
> >>> was her that did it, ie *she* collided, rather than
> >>> someone else collided into her.
> >>
> >> FWIW according to the other thread the CTC comment was
> >> "Vicki McCreery died following a collision with a bus"
> >>
> >> Tony
> >>
> >
> > *That* sounds neutral.
>
> So IYO
>
> "Ms McCreery died after colliding with a bus." has a
> clear bias
>
> and
>
> "Vicki McCreery died following a collision with a bus"
> is neutral
>
> Curious
>
> Tony
>

Not at all.

The first implies she was the one doing the colliding (or at
least, the active participant in it), the second is neutral
as to who the active parties wre (ie, from a POV of
causality). Subtle language, English.

--
Tumbleweed

Remove my socks for email address

 

[David Hansen]

On Thu, 27 May 2004 12:35:09 GMT someone who may be Simon Brooke
<[email protected]> wrote this:-

>But it really isn't an accident that Edinburgh has the UK's
>best known and most discussed LBS - there's a lot of
>cycling happens in Edinburgh.

It is also no accident that Edinburgh has a local cycling
pressure group that is second to none. I congratulate all
those who give up their time to get all the work done. The
work included the first physical work on what is now the
North Edinburgh path network, work which was eventually
taken over by the Council.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number
F566DA0E I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK
government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

 

[Andymorris]

Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:
>
> I don't think so. David and I were in Northern Italy a few
> weeks ago and were struck by the number of cyclists, (both
> leisure and utility) on the roads. The terrain was
> certainly not flat outside Meran(o) but the planners had
> made the environment *much* less hostile than we find
> locally. There were some dedicated cycle tracks. Cyclists
> were mostly on the road and the motorists were patient and
> tolerant. Our hosts' 6-year-old daughter was allowed to
> cycle to the playground (about 3/4
> mile) by herself on the road. Her road skill weren't too
> clever.
>

Do you think the kudos associated with cycle sports in Italy
rubs off on leisure and utility cycling.

Does an italian middle age fat bloke popping down the shops
on his bianchi have a little bit of a Fausto Coppi fantasy,
the way a british bloke going to B&Q in his mondaeo might
have a Colin Macrae moment?

--
Andy Morris

AndyAtJinkasDotFreeserve.Co.UK

Love this:
Put an end to Outlook Express's messy quotes
http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/

 

[David Hansen]

On Thu, 27 May 2004 11:20:28 +0100 someone who may be Peter Clinch
<[email protected]> wrote this:-

>Read again. Jeremy said places /in/ Wales and Scotland.

There are places in England where cycling is less than
places in Wales and Scotland. Jeremy's comparison is bogus.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number
F566DA0E I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK
government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

 

[Chris Malcolm]

"AndyMorris" <[email protected]> writes:

>Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:

>> David and I were in Northern Italy a few weeks ago and
>> were struck by the number of cyclists, (both leisure and
>> utility) on the roads. The terrain was certainly not flat
>> outside Meran(o) but the planners had made the
>> environment *much* less hostile than we find locally.
>> There were some dedicated cycle tracks. Cyclists were
>> mostly on the road and the motorists were patient and
>> tolerant. Our hosts' 6-year-old daughter was allowed to
>> cycle to the playground (about 3/4
>> mile) by herself on the road. Her road skill weren't too
>> clever.

>Do you think the kudos associated with cycle sports in
>Italy rubs off on leisure and utility cycling.

>Does an italian middle age fat bloke popping down the shops
>on his bianchi have a little bit of a Fausto Coppi fantasy,
>the way a british bloke going to B&Q in his mondaeo might
>have a Colin Macrae moment?

Is that similar to the old "Stirling Moss" moment, as when
the police pulled you up and asked "Who you do you think you
are then, Stirling Moss?"
--
Chris Malcolm [email protected] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]