The Acid question

Discussion in 'Health and medical' started by alan jones, Sep 21, 2003.

  1. alan jones

    alan jones Guest

    The Acid question.


    No proper food packaging is without information on fat, protein and
    carbohydrates content , even so there's are other attributes to the nutrients derived
    from foods. Is there also a case for having the issue of 'acids and alkalines' brought
    into the general public's understandings of a balanced diet?


    Whilst a great deal is made in the culture, on the importance of a balanced diet, the
    exact nature of that balance isn't as commonly taught. Most will know to eat fruit and
    vegetables, without being told specifically why. Is it any wonder the young don't eat
    as healthily as they might, when there exist this gap in knowledge.

    Fruits and vegetables, with a few exceptions are predominately alkaline. The body at
    its ideal tends towards an alkaline state. this means it benefits from the correct
    balance of food stuff to help maintain this alkaline balance. Yet look at the majority of
    processed food stuffs.

    The Fat and Calorific content of foods are given prominence because of their
    identifiable links to obesity, yet the Acid or pH content of foods go unmentioned.
    Studies show acid levels in the body to have a connection to long term health and
    disease; yet this goes largely unspecified. This connection only becomes known,
    after the event.

    Importantly, if it were known that alcohol and particularly hard drugs are amongst the
    most concentrated source for this acid strain on the liver, I wonder if these social
    drugs would be considered by their users as releases from stress. The point here,
    is that stress results in the increase of the body's acidity, and that these drugs, whilst
    they may appear to relieve the psychological component of stress, still contribute to
    the metabolism of stress, particularly on the liver.

    Other food types like lard, even cooking oils, add to the acid imbalance. I am reminded
    of a recent government health warning against high protein diets, ( which did its best
    not to go into detail and so failed to mention, what I suspect was this acid strain on
    the liver. ) An acid imbalance leads to biological conditions which increases the likely
    hood for all kinds of diseases. Research shows cancer to be predisposed to an acidic
    metabolism. At the same time the longest lived people, enjoy diets rich in alkalines.

    Perhaps it is time for the food industry to make an issue of this element of our diet.
    That's assuming they have the interest of consumers as their concern. I can imagine
    the vegetable and fruit industry, using this idea as the basis for a campaign strategy,
    and possibly making new information with this emphasis, available to schools.

    [ On a flight of fancy, imagine an independent retail chain 'Just Alkalines', using this
    idea to 'group' known alkalines. The chances are the idea might then be absorbed
    into the larger chains; assuming a genuine interest in the consumer's health. ]


    In an era looking to encourage healthy living, by promoting less smoking and greater
    exercise; isn't it time the content of dietary information was reappraise? The strain
    on the health service is such that prevention might actually be cheaper than cure.
    The ideal situation would have pH levels, as easily understood information, on the
    packaging of all foods. The preventative measures to address the pH imbalance are
    plentiful enough, providing the public knows in advance of the connections to health..

    I wonder what the pH level is for the average burger and bun combo, swilled down
    with the ubiquitous milk shake and fizzy pop?
     
    Tags:


  2. Rich Andrews

    Rich Andrews Guest

    "alan jones" <[email protected]> wrote in news:1064170841.8059.0
    @iris.uk.clara.net:

    > The Acid question.
    >
    >
    > No proper food packaging is without information on fat, protein and
    > carbohydrates content , even so there's are other attributes to the

    nutrients derived
    > from foods. Is there also a case for having the issue of 'acids and

    alkalines' brought
    > into the general public's understandings of a balanced diet?
    >
    >
    > Whilst a great deal is made in the culture, on the importance of a

    balanced diet, the
    > exact nature of that balance isn't as commonly taught. Most will know to

    eat fruit and
    > vegetables, without being told specifically why. Is it any wonder the

    young don't eat
    > as healthily as they might, when there exist this gap in knowledge.
    >
    > Fruits and vegetables, with a few exceptions are predominately alkaline.

    The body at
    > its ideal tends towards an alkaline state. this means it benefits from

    the correct
    > balance of food stuff to help maintain this alkaline balance. Yet look

    at the majority of
    > processed food stuffs.
    >
    > The Fat and Calorific content of foods are given prominence because of

    their
    > identifiable links to obesity, yet the Acid or pH content of foods go

    unmentioned.
    > Studies show acid levels in the body to have a connection to long term

    health and
    > disease; yet this goes largely unspecified. This connection only

    becomes known,
    > after the event.
    >
    > Importantly, if it were known that alcohol and particularly hard drugs

    are amongst the
    > most concentrated source for this acid strain on the liver, I wonder if

    these social
    > drugs would be considered by their users as releases from stress. The

    point here,
    > is that stress results in the increase of the body's acidity, and that

    these drugs, whilst
    > they may appear to relieve the psychological component of stress, still

    contribute to
    > the metabolism of stress, particularly on the liver.
    >
    > Other food types like lard, even cooking oils, add to the acid

    imbalance. I am reminded
    > of a recent government health warning against high protein diets, (

    which did its best
    > not to go into detail and so failed to mention, what I suspect was this

    acid strain on
    > the liver. ) An acid imbalance leads to biological conditions which

    increases the likely
    > hood for all kinds of diseases. Research shows cancer to be predisposed

    to an acidic
    > metabolism. At the same time the longest lived people, enjoy diets rich

    in alkalines.
    >
    > Perhaps it is time for the food industry to make an issue of this

    element of our diet.
    > That's assuming they have the interest of consumers as their concern. I

    can imagine
    > the vegetable and fruit industry, using this idea as the basis for a

    campaign strategy,
    > and possibly making new information with this emphasis, available to

    schools.
    >
    > [ On a flight of fancy, imagine an independent retail chain 'Just

    Alkalines', using this
    > idea to 'group' known alkalines. The chances are the idea might then

    be absorbed
    > into the larger chains; assuming a genuine interest in the consumer's

    health. ]
    >
    >
    > In an era looking to encourage healthy living, by promoting less smoking

    and greater
    > exercise; isn't it time the content of dietary information was

    reappraise? The strain
    > on the health service is such that prevention might actually be cheaper

    than cure.
    > The ideal situation would have pH levels, as easily understood

    information, on the
    > packaging of all foods. The preventative measures to address the pH

    imbalance are
    > plentiful enough, providing the public knows in advance of the

    connections to health..
    >
    > I wonder what the pH level is for the average burger and bun combo,

    swilled down
    > with the ubiquitous milk shake and fizzy pop?
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >


    Why would one care when the acid in the stomach created by the digestive
    process is used to break down food? Then there is vinegar (Acetic acid)
    which is part of nearly every salad dressing known.

    r

    --
    "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from
    magic."

    Arthur C. Clarke (1917 - ), "Technology and the Future"
     
  3. --

    "alan jones" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > The Acid question.
    >
    >
    > No proper food packaging is without information on fat, protein and
    > carbohydrates content , even so there's are other attributes to the

    nutrients derived
    > from foods. Is there also a case for having the issue of 'acids and

    alkalines' brought
    > into the general public's understandings of a balanced diet?
    >
    >
    > Whilst a great deal is made in the culture, on the importance of a

    balanced diet, the
    > exact nature of that balance isn't as commonly taught. Most will know to

    eat fruit and
    > vegetables, without being told specifically why. Is it any wonder the

    young don't eat
    > as healthily as they might, when there exist this gap in knowledge.
    >
    > Fruits and vegetables, with a few exceptions are predominately alkaline.

    The body at
    > its ideal tends towards an alkaline state. this means it benefits from the

    correct
    > balance of food stuff to help maintain this alkaline balance. Yet look at

    the majority of
    > processed food stuffs.
    >
    > The Fat and Calorific content of foods are given prominence because of

    their
    > identifiable links to obesity, yet the Acid or pH content of foods go

    unmentioned.
    > Studies show acid levels in the body to have a connection to long term

    health and
    > disease; yet this goes largely unspecified. This connection only becomes

    known,
    > after the event.
    >
    > Importantly, if it were known that alcohol and particularly hard drugs are

    amongst the
    > most concentrated source for this acid strain on the liver, I wonder if

    these social
    > drugs would be considered by their users as releases from stress. The

    point here,
    > is that stress results in the increase of the body's acidity, and that

    these drugs, whilst
    > they may appear to relieve the psychological component of stress, still

    contribute to
    > the metabolism of stress, particularly on the liver.
    >
    > Other food types like lard, even cooking oils, add to the acid imbalance.

    I am reminded
    > of a recent government health warning against high protein diets, ( which

    did its best
    > not to go into detail and so failed to mention, what I suspect was this

    acid strain on
    > the liver. ) An acid imbalance leads to biological conditions which

    increases the likely
    > hood for all kinds of diseases. Research shows cancer to be predisposed to

    an acidic
    > metabolism. At the same time the longest lived people, enjoy diets rich in

    alkalines.
    >
    > Perhaps it is time for the food industry to make an issue of this element

    of our diet.
    > That's assuming they have the interest of consumers as their concern. I

    can imagine
    > the vegetable and fruit industry, using this idea as the basis for a

    campaign strategy,
    > and possibly making new information with this emphasis, available to

    schools.
    >
    > [ On a flight of fancy, imagine an independent retail chain 'Just

    Alkalines', using this
    > idea to 'group' known alkalines. The chances are the idea might then be

    absorbed
    > into the larger chains; assuming a genuine interest in the consumer's

    health. ]
    >
    >
    > In an era looking to encourage healthy living, by promoting less smoking

    and greater
    > exercise; isn't it time the content of dietary information was reappraise?

    The strain
    > on the health service is such that prevention might actually be cheaper

    than cure.
    > The ideal situation would have pH levels, as easily understood

    information, on the
    > packaging of all foods. The preventative measures to address the pH

    imbalance are
    > plentiful enough, providing the public knows in advance of the connections

    to health..
    >
    > I wonder what the pH level is for the average burger and bun combo,

    swilled down
    > with the ubiquitous milk shake and fizzy pop?



    The pH of the food you eat has no practical connection to the pH levels of
    the blood, fluids, and tissues in your body. First, the stomach juices are
    far more acid than the sourest food you could bear to consume, and instantly
    neutralize any OH- (alkaline) ions introduced by any "alkaline" foods. The
    pH level of the blood is maintained by a beautiful homeostatic system. It
    generally fails only in extreme disease conditions nearing death, and
    nothing that can be eaten can reverse those conditions.

    So, don't worry about the pH of the food you eat. Have a pickle.

    --Rich
     
  4. Jeff

    Jeff Guest

    "alan jones" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > The Acid question.
    >
    >
    > No proper food packaging is without information on fat, protein and
    > carbohydrates content , even so there's are other attributes to the

    nutrients derived
    > from foods. Is there also a case for having the issue of 'acids and

    alkalines' brought
    > into the general public's understandings of a balanced diet?
    >


    If I eat something that is alkaline, my pee will turn alkaline and my blood
    will remain with the proper acid-base balance.

    If I eat some that is acid, my pee will turn acid and my blood will remain
    with the proper acid-base balance.

    I live my kidneys.

    >
    > Whilst a great deal is made in the culture, on the importance of a

    balanced diet, the
    > exact nature of that balance isn't as commonly taught. Most will know to

    eat fruit and
    > vegetables, without being told specifically why. Is it any wonder the

    young don't eat
    > as healthily as they might, when there exist this gap in knowledge.


    The reason why people should eat fruits and vegetables is to increase
    dietary fiber, decrease animal fats and get vitamins and minerals that are
    not in animal products. In addition, there may be other cancer-fighting
    compounds in fruits and vegeatables.

    > Fruits and vegetables, with a few exceptions are predominately alkaline.

    The body at
    > its ideal tends towards an alkaline state. this means it benefits from the

    correct
    > balance of food stuff to help maintain this alkaline balance. Yet look at

    the majority of
    > processed food stuffs.


    Again, we have kidneys that keep the proper acid-base balance.

    > The Fat and Calorific content of foods are given prominence because of

    their
    > identifiable links to obesity, yet the Acid or pH content of foods go

    unmentioned.
    > Studies show acid levels in the body to have a connection to long term

    health and
    > disease; yet this goes largely unspecified. This connection only becomes

    known,
    > after the event.


    Can you provide the peer-reviewed refernces to support your claims?

    > Importantly, if it were known that alcohol and particularly hard drugs are

    amongst the
    > most concentrated source for this acid strain on the liver, I wonder if

    these social
    > drugs would be considered by their users as releases from stress. The

    point here,
    > is that stress results in the increase of the body's acidity, and that

    these drugs, whilst
    > they may appear to relieve the psychological component of stress, still

    contribute to
    > the metabolism of stress, particularly on the liver.


    Again, peer-reviewed research, please. What is "acid strain?" Alcohol is not
    listed as a cause of metabolic acidosis:
    http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic312.htm

    > Other food types like lard, even cooking oils, add to the acid imbalance.

    I am reminded
    > of a recent government health warning against high protein diets, ( which

    did its best
    > not to go into detail and so failed to mention, what I suspect was this

    acid strain on
    > the liver. ) An acid imbalance leads to biological conditions which

    increases the likely
    > hood for all kinds of diseases. Research shows cancer to be predisposed to

    an acidic
    > metabolism. At the same time the longest lived people, enjoy diets rich in

    alkalines.

    Again, my kidneys will put more acid in my urine, taking care of the acid
    problem. Please show studies in peer-reviewed articles that show otherwise.

    > Perhaps it is time for the food industry to make an issue of this element

    of our diet.
    > That's assuming they have the interest of consumers as their concern. I

    can imagine
    > the vegetable and fruit industry, using this idea as the basis for a

    campaign strategy,
    > and possibly making new information with this emphasis, available to

    schools.

    Perhaps the food industry and the FDA don't worry about this because most
    peopel have kidneys that function well enough to take care of acid base
    problems.

    > [ On a flight of fancy, imagine an independent retail chain 'Just

    Alkalines', using this
    > idea to 'group' known alkalines. The chances are the idea might then be

    absorbed
    > into the larger chains; assuming a genuine interest in the consumer's

    health. ]
    >
    >
    > In an era looking to encourage healthy living, by promoting less smoking

    and greater
    > exercise; isn't it time the content of dietary information was reappraise?

    The strain
    > on the health service is such that prevention might actually be cheaper

    than cure.
    > The ideal situation would have pH levels, as easily understood

    information, on the
    > packaging of all foods. The preventative measures to address the pH

    imbalance are
    > plentiful enough, providing the public knows in advance of the connections

    to health..

    That would work, except, as mentioned earlier, the kidneys handle the acid
    base problem.

    > I wonder what the pH level is for the average burger and bun combo,

    swilled down
    > with the ubiquitous milk shake and fizzy pop?


    Actually, it is usually swilled down with a biggie french frie and huge
    coke. And after the huge coke, there is plenty of fluid to help the kidneys
    remove any excess acid.

    Jeff
     
  5. Tim Tyler

    Tim Tyler Guest

    In sci.med.nutrition Rich Shewmaker <[email protected]> wrote:

    : The pH of the food you eat has no practical connection to the pH levels of
    : the blood, fluids, and tissues in your body.

    Yes it does.

    : First, the stomach juices are far more acid than the sourest food you
    : could bear to consume, and instantly neutralize any OH- (alkaline) ions
    : introduced by any "alkaline" foods.

    Stomach pH is not the issue.

    : The pH level of the blood is maintained by a beautiful homeostatic
    : system.

    Beautiful it may be - but foolproof it is not.

    : It generally fails only in extreme disease conditions nearing death,
    : and nothing that can be eaten can reverse those conditions.

    Metabolic acidosis is not particularly uncommon - and is a common
    result the aging process and the ingesting of acid-provoking foodstuffs -
    such as meat.

    E.g.:

    ``Chronic metabolic acidosis is a process whereby an excess nonvolatile
    acid load is chronically placed on the body due to excess acid
    generation or diminished acid removal by normal homeostatic
    mechanisms. Two common, often-overlooked clinical conditions associated
    with chronic metabolic acidosis are aging and excessive meat ingestion.''

    - http://timtyler.org/pmid/?n=9016905

    ``Metabolic and endocrine effects of metabolic acidosis in humans.

    There is experimental evidence to support the notion that even mild
    degrees of acidosis, such as that occurring by ingestion of a high
    animal protein diet, induces some of these metabolic and endocrine
    effects.''

    - http://www.smw.ch/archive200x/2001/09/smw-09666.html
    --
    __________
    |im |yler http://timtyler.org/ [email protected]
     
  6. Robert

    Robert Guest

    "Tim Tyler" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
    > In sci.med.nutrition Rich Shewmaker <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > : The pH of the food you eat has no practical connection to the pH levels

    of
    > : the blood, fluids, and tissues in your body.
    >
    > Yes it does.


    No it doesn't. How would the food pH have a bearing on the very low pH of
    the stomach acid and the high pH of the intestine?
    It has no being on the blood pH.
    >
    > : First, the stomach juices are far more acid than the sourest food you
    > : could bear to consume, and instantly neutralize any OH- (alkaline) ions
    > : introduced by any "alkaline" foods.
    >
    > Stomach pH is not the issue.

    Food pH is not the issue.
    >
    > : The pH level of the blood is maintained by a beautiful homeostatic
    > : system.
    >
    > Beautiful it may be - but foolproof it is not.

    Correct and it has nothing to do with what you eat.
    >
    > : It generally fails only in extreme disease conditions nearing death,
    > : and nothing that can be eaten can reverse those conditions.
    >
    > Metabolic acidosis is not particularly uncommon - and is a common
    > result the aging process and the ingesting of acid-provoking foodstuffs -
    > such as meat.

    ????? It is common aging process? Wheres the data on that? There is no
    age related Blood pH scale. If there is something wrong with your kidneys
    or lungs then you have a problem regulating your acid-base. People need
    food to live so I guess you can say that all illness is related to food
    because you die without it. If you have liver or kidney damage or other
    conditions then you need to decrease certain foods because you have a
    damaged system but in a normal person it has no impact.
    >
    > E.g.:
    >
    > ``Chronic metabolic acidosis is a process whereby an excess nonvolatile
    > acid load is chronically placed on the body due to excess acid
    > generation or diminished acid removal by normal homeostatic
    > mechanisms. Two common, often-overlooked clinical conditions associated
    > with chronic metabolic acidosis are aging and excessive meat

    ingestion.''

    "Baloney" comes to mind. With aging you get a decreased glomerular
    filtration but with a deminised muscle mass the cleareance remains fairly
    constant. Excess protein in the renal tubules may cause damage to the
    tubules it has nothing to do with pH of food. It has more to do with protein
    exposure. Protein is nephrotoxic.
    >
    > - http://timtyler.org/pmid/?n=9016905
    >
    > ``Metabolic and endocrine effects of metabolic acidosis in humans.
    >
    > There is experimental evidence to support the notion that even mild
    > degrees of acidosis, such as that occurring by ingestion of a high
    > animal protein diet, induces some of these metabolic and endocrine
    > effects.''

    Which means it is a normal process with normal regulation on how the body
    handles acid and base loads. If you drink excess water the body regulates it
    and eliminates it ie hormones ADH etc and to go the next step and say water
    is really bad because the body does this is really bizarre.
    Stick to your coral calcium commercials and how it adjusts your bodies pH
    dude.
    >
    > - http://www.smw.ch/archive200x/2001/09/smw-09666.html
    > --
    > __________
    > |im |yler http://timtyler.org/ [email protected]
     
  7. Tim Tyler

    Tim Tyler Guest

    In sci.med.nutrition Robert <[email protected]> wrote:
    : "Tim Tyler" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
    :> In sci.med.nutrition Rich Shewmaker <[email protected]> wrote:

    :> : The pH of the food you eat has no practical connection to the pH levels
    :> : of the blood, fluids, and tissues in your body.
    :>
    :> Yes it does.

    : No it doesn't. How would the food pH have a bearing on the very low pH of
    : the stomach acid and the high pH of the intestine?
    : It has no being on the blood pH.

    Foodstuffs are defined as being acid or alkaline depending on the
    effect they have on the metabolism.

    The original poster clearly understood thas - writing: "fruits and
    vegetables, with a few exceptions are predominately alkaline."

    Now, put some litmus paper on oranges, apples and lemons and you
    will find them to have rather low pHs.

    You are right that the pH of the food as measured by litmus on
    the food matters little. However that is not what was being
    discussed. What was under discussion was the acidity/alkalinity
    of the food as defined by its effect on metabolism.

    Tables of how foods stack up on this scale are widely available - e.g.:
    http://members.aol.com/pganzel/foods.htm

    :> : First, the stomach juices are far more acid than the sourest food you
    :> : could bear to consume, and instantly neutralize any OH- (alkaline) ions
    :> : introduced by any "alkaline" foods.
    :>
    :> Stomach pH is not the issue.
    :
    : Food pH is not the issue.

    Yes - but not the pH measured using litmus paper on the food.

    The acidily or alkilinity of foods in the context of this sort of
    discussion is defined differently - it is related to the PH of the
    digestible components after metabolism - e.g.:

    ``All foods are “burned” in the body - more commonly called “digested” -
    leaving an ash as the result of the “burning”, or the digestion. This
    food ash can be neutral, acid or alkaline, depending largely on the
    mineral composition of the foods.''

    :> : The pH level of the blood is maintained by a beautiful homeostatic
    :> : system.
    :>
    :> Beautiful it may be - but foolproof it is not.
    :
    : Correct and it has nothing to do with what you eat.

    ....but it /does/ - that's the whole point of the scale.

    : Excess protein in the renal tubules may cause damage to the
    : tubules it has nothing to do with pH of food.

    Not as measured by litmus on the food, no.

    Maybe our disagreement will resolve itself once you see the
    terminology the OP was intending.

    : It has more to do with protein exposure. Protein is nephrotoxic.

    Proteins tend to be acid foodstuffs.
    --
    __________
    |im |yler http://timtyler.org/ [email protected]
     
  8. see below

    Robert wrote:

    > "Tim Tyler" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
    > > In sci.med.nutrition Rich Shewmaker <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > > : The pH of the food you eat has no practical connection to the pH levels

    > of
    > > : the blood, fluids, and tissues in your body.
    > >
    > > Yes it does.

    >
    > No it doesn't. How would the food pH have a bearing on the very low pH of
    > the stomach acid and the high pH of the intestine?
    > It has no being on the blood pH.
    > >
    > > : First, the stomach juices are far more acid than the sourest food you
    > > : could bear to consume, and instantly neutralize any OH- (alkaline) ions
    > > : introduced by any "alkaline" foods.
    > >
    > > Stomach pH is not the issue.

    > Food pH is not the issue.
    > >
    > > : The pH level of the blood is maintained by a beautiful homeostatic
    > > : system.
    > >
    > > Beautiful it may be - but foolproof it is not.

    > Correct and it has nothing to do with what you eat.
    > >
    > > : It generally fails only in extreme disease conditions nearing death,
    > > : and nothing that can be eaten can reverse those conditions.
    > >
    > > Metabolic acidosis is not particularly uncommon - and is a common
    > > result the aging process and the ingesting of acid-provoking foodstuffs -
    > > such as meat.

    > ????? It is common aging process? Wheres the data on that? There is no
    > age related Blood pH scale. If there is something wrong with your kidneys
    > or lungs then you have a problem regulating your acid-base. People need
    > food to live so I guess you can say that all illness is related to food
    > because you die without it. If you have liver or kidney damage or other
    > conditions then you need to decrease certain foods because you have a
    > damaged system but in a normal person it has no impact.
    > >
    > > E.g.:
    > >
    > > ``Chronic metabolic acidosis is a process whereby an excess nonvolatile
    > > acid load is chronically placed on the body due to excess acid
    > > generation or diminished acid removal by normal homeostatic
    > > mechanisms. Two common, often-overlooked clinical conditions associated
    > > with chronic metabolic acidosis are aging and excessive meat

    > ingestion.''
    >
    > "Baloney" comes to mind. With aging you get a decreased glomerular
    > filtration but with a deminised muscle mass the cleareance remains fairly
    > constant. Excess protein in the renal tubules may cause damage to the
    > tubules it has nothing to do with pH of food. It has more to do with protein
    > exposure. Protein is nephrotoxic.
    > >
    > > - http://timtyler.org/pmid/?n=9016905
    > >
    > > ``Metabolic and endocrine effects of metabolic acidosis in humans.
    > >
    > > There is experimental evidence to support the notion that even mild
    > > degrees of acidosis, such as that occurring by ingestion of a high
    > > animal protein diet, induces some of these metabolic and endocrine
    > > effects.''

    > Which means it is a normal process with normal regulation on how the body
    > handles acid and base loads. If you drink excess water the body regulates it
    > and eliminates it ie hormones ADH etc and to go the next step and say water
    > is really bad because the body does this is really bizarre.
    > Stick to your coral calcium commercials and how it adjusts your bodies pH
    > dude.


    snipped

    The "Ph" of the Blood is primarily controlled by BOTH the lungs AND the
    Kidneys/
    Food has NOTHING to do with it...However if there is ACID in the
    air..there MAY
    be a problem, However even then it may be difficult to "acidify" the
    blood.
    The Kidneys are even a better and more serious source..as IF the Lungs
    cannot
    supply enough Oxygen to the Kidneys VIA the heart then there is trouble
    in
    River city.

    My wife recently died due to a problem involving oxygenation as the Heart
    could NOT supply enough due to a collapsed left ventrical. Her lungs had
    also been
    "challenged" many times by Pneumonia caused by several insults to her
    lungs.
    It took two long years of MISERY beyond definition for her to finally
    accept her
    Spirit-Guides' hands to Guide her to the next step in the 5th level of
    what we call "heaven".
    In one bref contact..she was enjoying READING as her eyes had always been
    inflicted with
    severe near sitedness due to un-guarded measles as a child. She was the
    Mother of 4 beautiful
    girls however. We miss her greatly! B-0b1
     
  9. Tim Tyler

    Tim Tyler Guest

    In sci.med.nutrition Robert McCarty <[email protected]> wrote:

    : The "Ph" of the Blood is primarily controlled by BOTH the lungs AND the
    : Kidneys/ Food has NOTHING to do with it... [...]

    ``Causes of metabolic acidosis

    The most common imbalance in the acid-base balance in the
    industrialized countries is mild chronic metabolic acidosis caused by
    the diet rich in the animal protein. Proteins are metabolized to organic
    acids. The typical American diet produces after metabolism approximately
    100 meq of acid every day (Barzel 1995). This kind of a diet has been
    proved to cause aciduria and calciuria as a consequence of acidosis and
    thus a loss of total calcium of the body (Breslau et al. 1988, Schuette
    et al. 1980, Licata et al. 1981). Cola drinks that contain phosphoric
    acid are another acidosis-inducing ingredient of diet, especially among
    young people (Barzel 1995). [...]''

    - http://herkules.oulu.fi/isbn9514253620/html/x193.html
    --
    __________
    |im |yler http://timtyler.org/ [email protected]
     
  10. Robert

    Robert Guest

    "Tim Tyler" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
    > In sci.med.nutrition Robert McCarty <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > : The "Ph" of the Blood is primarily controlled by BOTH the lungs AND

    the
    > : Kidneys/ Food has NOTHING to do with it... [...]
    >
    > ``Causes of metabolic acidosis
    >
    > The most common imbalance in the acid-base balance in the
    > industrialized countries is mild chronic metabolic acidosis caused by
    > the diet rich in the animal protein. Proteins are metabolized to organic
    > acids. The typical American diet produces after metabolism approximately
    > 100 meq of acid every day (Barzel 1995). This kind of a diet has been
    > proved to cause aciduria and calciuria as a consequence of acidosis and
    > thus a loss of total calcium of the body (Breslau et al. 1988, Schuette
    > et al. 1980, Licata et al. 1981). Cola drinks that contain phosphoric
    > acid are another acidosis-inducing ingredient of diet, especially among
    > young people (Barzel 1995). [...]''
    >
    > - http://herkules.oulu.fi/isbn9514253620/html/x193.html
    > --
    > __________
    > |im |yler http://timtyler.org/ [email protected]


    Going around in circles here. Yes, an increase acid load causes an increase
    acid release in urine. They call it normal physiology. An increase in base
    gives you a higher pH in urine. Dogs are a good example where you see
    alkaline stones such as ammonium phosphate formation whereas in humans the
    acid stones of calcium oxalate are common. In dogs base is the problem and
    in humans it's acid, so what. Any person with kidney stones would tell how
    unproductive diet is in avoiding stone formation. The best thing to do is
    drink plenty of water to dilute anything there but rest assured to total
    acid load excretion is the same only diluted in the volume.
     
  11. alan jones

    alan jones Guest

    > I live my kidneys.

    You may even love your kidneys, but to say an healthy kidney nurtralises
    the effect of a food's pH, is to totally miss the point. Foodstuff still place a
    "dietary hydrogen (H+) load" upon the kidneys. What happens when through
    a faulty life style and poor information the bulk of that load is acid forming?

    " The liver and kidneys have a limited capability to neutralise and
    eliminate a certain about of acids. "

    " It is estimated that the liver and kidneys can clean up about 8 units
    a day. One pound of meat can generate as much as 18 units of uric
    acid. If the liver and kidneys can only handle 8 of the 18 units of uric
    acid, who or what does the rest? The answer, minerals. "

    http://groups.google.com/[email protected]&output=gplain

    http://www.healthlibrary.com/reading/ncure/chap11.htm

    The kidney works well enough until it doesn't. The old adage 'prevention
    is better than cure' comes readily to mind. Prevention lies with the information
    about us and our willingness to take heed.

    "Jeff" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
    >
    > "alan jones" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > > The Acid question.
    > >
    > >
    > > No proper food packaging is without information on fat, protein and
    > > carbohydrates content , even so there's are other attributes to the
    > > nutrients derived from foods. Is there also a case for having the issue
    > > of 'acids and alkalines' brought into the general public's understandings
    > > of a balanced diet?
    > >

    >
    > If I eat something that is alkaline, my pee will turn alkaline and my blood
    > will remain with the proper acid-base balance.
    >
    > If I eat some that is acid, my pee will turn acid and my blood will remain
    > with the proper acid-base balance.
    >
    > I live my kidneys.
    >
    > >
    > > Whilst a great deal is made in the culture, on the importance of a
    > > balanced diet, the exact nature of that balance isn't as commonly taught.
    > > Most will know to eat fruit and vegetables, without being told specifically why.
    > > Is it any wonder the young don't eat as healthily as they might, when there
    > > exist this gap in knowledge.

    >
    > The reason why people should eat fruits and vegetables is to increase
    > dietary fiber, decrease animal fats and get vitamins and minerals that are
    > not in animal products. In addition, there may be other cancer-fighting
    > compounds in fruits and vegeatables.
    >
    > > Fruits and vegetables, with a few exceptions are predominately alkaline.
    > > The body at its ideal tends towards an alkaline state. this means it benefits
    > > from the correct balance of food stuff to help maintain this alkaline balance.
    > > Yet look at the majority of processed food stuffs.

    >
    > Again, we have kidneys that keep the proper acid-base balance.
    >
    > > The Fat and Calorific content of foods are given prominence because of
    > > their identifiable links to obesity, yet the Acid or pH content of foods go
    > > unmentioned. Studies show acid levels in the body to have a connection
    > > to long term health and disease; yet this goes largely unspecified. This
    > > connection only becomes known, after the event.

    >
    > Can you provide the peer-reviewed refernces to support your claims?
    >
    > > Importantly, if it were known that alcohol and particularly hard drugs are
    > > amongst the most concentrated source for this acid strain on the liver, I
    > > wonder if these social drugs would be considered by their users as
    > > releases from stress. The point here, is that stress results in the increase
    > > of the body's acidity, and that these drugs, whilst they may appear to relieve
    > > the psychological component of stress, still contribute to the metabolism
    > > of stress, particularly on the liver.

    >
    > Again, peer-reviewed research, please. What is "acid strain?" Alcohol is not
    > listed as a cause of metabolic acidosis:
    > http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic312.htm
    >
    > > Other food types like lard, even cooking oils, add to the acid imbalance.
    > > I am reminded of a recent government health warning against high protein
    > > diets, ( which did its best not to go into detail and so failed to mention, what
    > > I suspect was this acid strain on the liver. ) An acid imbalance leads to
    > > biological conditions which increases the likely hood for all kinds of diseases.
    > > Research shows cancer to be predisposed to an acidic metabolism. At the
    > > same time the longest lived people, enjoy diets rich in alkalines.

    >
    > Again, my kidneys will put more acid in my urine, taking care of the acid
    > problem. Please show studies in peer-reviewed articles that show otherwise.
    >
    > > Perhaps it is time for the food industry to make an issue of this element
    > > of our diet. That's assuming they have the interest of consumers as their
    > > concern. I can imagine the vegetable and fruit industry, using this idea as
    > > the basis for a campaign strategy, and possibly making new information
    > > with this emphasis, available to schools.

    >
    > Perhaps the food industry and the FDA don't worry about this because most
    > peopel have kidneys that function well enough to take care of acid base
    > problems.
    >
    > > [ On a flight of fancy, imagine an independent retail chain 'Just
    > > Alkalines', using this idea to 'group' known alkalines. The chances are
    > > the idea might then be absorbed into the larger chains; assuming a
    > > genuine interest in the consumer's health. ]
    > >
    > >
    > > In an era looking to encourage healthy living, by promoting less smoking
    > > and greater exercise; isn't it time the content of dietary information was
    > > reappraise? The strain on the health service is such that prevention might
    > > actually be cheaper than cure. The ideal situation would have pH levels, as
    > > easily understood information, on the packaging of all foods. The preventative
    > > measures to address the pH imbalance are plentiful enough, providing the
    > > public knows in advance of the connections to health..

    >
    > That would work, except, as mentioned earlier, the kidneys handle the acid
    > base problem.
    >
    > > I wonder what the pH level is for the average burger and bun combo,
    > > swilled down with the ubiquitous milk shake and fizzy pop?

    >
    > Actually, it is usually swilled down with a biggie french frie and huge
    > coke. And after the huge coke, there is plenty of fluid to help the kidneys
    > remove any excess acid.
    >
    > Jeff
    >
     
  12. alan jones

    alan jones Guest

    > Maybe our disagreement will resolve itself once you see the
    > terminology the OP was intending.


    Thanks for riding in to my defence. My intentions with the post was to
    promote discussion but also to find what level of understanding exist
    on the matter. The discussion so far illustrates the point I made with
    my original post., namely that too little is known (beyond alternative
    health circles) on the acid / alkaline nature of foodstuffs. As you spotted,
    my intended meaning when talking about the pH of foodstuff, was for
    their effects upon our metabolism.

    For example the practice of giving sports persons oranges or lemons
    mid way through a match, actually serves a purpose. Even though
    those fruits would be considered acids in nature, the citric acid they
    contain has the effect of promoting alkalinity, thus helping to reduce
    the build up of lactic acid which occur as a result of exercise.

    In a recent health warning (UK), the public were warned against taking
    too much vitamin supplements, again there was no attempt to explain
    precisely why this edict was issued. Yet consider vitamin C, which the
    culture makes clear is good for us [free radicals etc]. It has the effect of
    increasing acidity in an acid bias system, ironically cancelling out the
    akalining effect of fruit drinks where Vitamin C is added. Like wise
    Vitamin D in an alkaline system has the effect of increasing alkalinity.

    The above are used to illustrate the acid / alkaline effect of foodstuff.
    Perhaps if we thought of food as we think of medicines, we might lean
    to see these foods stuffs as having an affect beyond simple nutrition.


    > Tables of how foods stack up on this scale are widely available - e.g.:
    > http://members.aol.com/pganzel/foods.htm


    I've spotted variations of these tables on the web, non however attempt
    to list the various items according the degree of acid or alkalinity they
    promote. Its this level of information that I would like to see included
    with foodstuffs. Here's another list for you.

    http://www.digitalnaturopath.com/data/acid_alkaline.html


    "Tim Tyler" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
    > In sci.med.nutrition Robert <[email protected]> wrote:
    > : "Tim Tyler" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
    > :> In sci.med.nutrition Rich Shewmaker <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > :> : The pH of the food you eat has no practical connection to the pH levels
    > :> : of the blood, fluids, and tissues in your body.
    > :>
    > :> Yes it does.
    >
    > : No it doesn't. How would the food pH have a bearing on the very low pH of
    > : the stomach acid and the high pH of the intestine?
    > : It has no being on the blood pH.
    >
    > Foodstuffs are defined as being acid or alkaline depending on the
    > effect they have on the metabolism.
    >
    > The original poster clearly understood thas - writing: "fruits and
    > vegetables, with a few exceptions are predominately alkaline."
    >
    > Now, put some litmus paper on oranges, apples and lemons and you
    > will find them to have rather low pHs.
    >
    > You are right that the pH of the food as measured by litmus on
    > the food matters little. However that is not what was being
    > discussed. What was under discussion was the acidity/alkalinity
    > of the food as defined by its effect on metabolism.
    >
    > Tables of how foods stack up on this scale are widely available - e.g.:
    > http://members.aol.com/pganzel/foods.htm
    >
    > :> : First, the stomach juices are far more acid than the sourest food you
    > :> : could bear to consume, and instantly neutralize any OH- (alkaline) ions
    > :> : introduced by any "alkaline" foods.
    > :>
    > :> Stomach pH is not the issue.
    > :
    > : Food pH is not the issue.
    >
    > Yes - but not the pH measured using litmus paper on the food.
    >
    > The acidily or alkilinity of foods in the context of this sort of
    > discussion is defined differently - it is related to the PH of the
    > digestible components after metabolism - e.g.:
    >
    > ``All foods are “burned” in the body - more commonly called “digested” -
    > leaving an ash as the result of the “burning”, or the digestion. This
    > food ash can be neutral, acid or alkaline, depending largely on the
    > mineral composition of the foods.''
    >
    > :> : The pH level of the blood is maintained by a beautiful homeostatic
    > :> : system.
    > :>
    > :> Beautiful it may be - but foolproof it is not.
    > :
    > : Correct and it has nothing to do with what you eat.
    >
    > ...but it /does/ - that's the whole point of the scale.
    >
    > : Excess protein in the renal tubules may cause damage to the
    > : tubules it has nothing to do with pH of food.
    >
    > Not as measured by litmus on the food, no.
    >
    > Maybe our disagreement will resolve itself once you see the
    > terminology the OP was intending.
    >
    > : It has more to do with protein exposure. Protein is nephrotoxic.
    >
    > Proteins tend to be acid foodstuffs.
    > --
    > __________
    > |im |yler http://timtyler.org/ [email protected]
     
  13. Jeff

    Jeff Guest

    "alan jones" <[email protected]_com> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > > I live my kidneys.

    >
    > You may even love your kidneys, but to say an healthy kidney nurtralises
    > the effect of a food's pH, is to totally miss the point. Foodstuff still

    place a
    > "dietary hydrogen (H+) load" upon the kidneys. What happens when through
    > a faulty life style and poor information the bulk of that load is acid

    forming?
    >
    > " The liver and kidneys have a limited capability to neutralise and
    > eliminate a certain about of acids. "


    True. However, humans evolved with a variety of diets in a variety of areas
    of the world. Limited does not mean that we come anywhere near the limites
    without normal diets.

    > " It is estimated that the liver and kidneys can clean up about 8 units
    > a day. One pound of meat can generate as much as 18 units of uric
    > acid. If the liver and kidneys can only handle 8 of the 18 units of

    uric
    > acid, who or what does the rest? The answer, minerals. "


    Actaully, the anwer is urine. Uric acid, urea and other wastes is why we
    pee.

    >

    http://groups.google.com/[email protected]&output=gplain
    >
    > http://www.healthlibrary.com/reading/ncure/chap11.htm


    This site is totally stupid. I already mentioned, the kidneys get rid of
    excess acid in urine.

    you need to provide real evidence this diet works, like peer-reviewed
    journal articles, not stupid web sites.

    > The kidney works well enough until it doesn't. The old adage 'prevention
    > is better than cure' comes readily to mind. Prevention lies with the

    information
    > about us and our willingness to take heed.


    Can you provide evidence that in people without known kidney disease, too
    much meat leads to kidney or liver damage? In people with kidney disease, it
    is known that limiting protein prolongs the life of the kidneys.

    Jeff
     
  14. Jeff

    Jeff Guest

    "Tim Tyler" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
    > In sci.med.nutrition Rich Shewmaker <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > : The pH of the food you eat has no practical connection to the pH levels

    of
    > : the blood, fluids, and tissues in your body.
    >
    > Yes it does.


    Only when the kidneys are not functioning properly.

    > : First, the stomach juices are far more acid than the sourest food you
    > : could bear to consume, and instantly neutralize any OH- (alkaline) ions
    > : introduced by any "alkaline" foods.
    >
    > Stomach pH is not the issue.
    >
    > : The pH level of the blood is maintained by a beautiful homeostatic
    > : system.
    >
    > Beautiful it may be - but foolproof it is not.


    Of course it is not foolproof. But it works so well that normally we don't
    need to worry about blood or body pH.

    > : It generally fails only in extreme disease conditions nearing death,
    > : and nothing that can be eaten can reverse those conditions.
    >
    > Metabolic acidosis is not particularly uncommon - and is a common
    > result the aging process and the ingesting of acid-provoking foodstuffs -
    > such as meat.


    Evidence that is not particularly uncommon please, like peer-reviewed
    articles.

    > E.g.:
    >
    > ``Chronic metabolic acidosis is a process whereby an excess nonvolatile
    > acid load is chronically placed on the body due to excess acid
    > generation or diminished acid removal by normal homeostatic
    > mechanisms. Two common, often-overlooked clinical conditions associated
    > with chronic metabolic acidosis are aging and excessive meat

    ingestion.''
    >
    > - http://timtyler.org/pmid/?n=9016905


    For this paper to apply, you have to have a metabolic problem. A regular
    diet does not count. Or a major kidney problem.

    > ``Metabolic and endocrine effects of metabolic acidosis in humans.
    >
    > There is experimental evidence to support the notion that even mild
    > degrees of acidosis, such as that occurring by ingestion of a high
    > animal protein diet, induces some of these metabolic and endocrine
    > effects.''
    >
    > - http://www.smw.ch/archive200x/2001/09/smw-09666.html


    This is a peer-reviewed article. However, if you read carefully the who
    article, words like "possibly" keep popping up. It is by no means proven
    that your hypothesis is true. In addition, there are far more important
    things to do for health, like eat less and excercise.

    Jeff

    > --
    > __________
    > |im |yler http://timtyler.org/ [email protected]
     
  15. Jeff

    Jeff Guest

    "alan jones" <[email protected]_com> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > > Maybe our disagreement will resolve itself once you see the
    > > terminology the OP was intending.

    >
    > Thanks for riding in to my defence. My intentions with the post was to
    > promote discussion but also to find what level of understanding exist
    > on the matter. The discussion so far illustrates the point I made with
    > my original post., namely that too little is known (beyond alternative
    > health circles) on the acid / alkaline nature of foodstuffs. As you

    spotted,
    > my intended meaning when talking about the pH of foodstuff, was for
    > their effects upon our metabolism.


    (...)

    Too little may be known, but that does not mean that our kidneys do not do
    an adequate job or that there are more important things to focus on.

    Jeff
     
  16. Jeff

    Jeff Guest

    "Tim Tyler" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
    > In sci.med.nutrition Robert McCarty <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > : The "Ph" of the Blood is primarily controlled by BOTH the lungs AND

    the
    > : Kidneys/ Food has NOTHING to do with it... [...]
    >
    > ``Causes of metabolic acidosis
    >
    > The most common imbalance in the acid-base balance in the
    > industrialized countries is mild chronic metabolic acidosis caused by
    > the diet rich in the animal protein. Proteins are metabolized to organic
    > acids. The typical American diet produces after metabolism approximately
    > 100 meq of acid every day (Barzel 1995). This kind of a diet has been
    > proved to cause aciduria and calciuria as a consequence of acidosis and
    > thus a loss of total calcium of the body (Breslau et al. 1988, Schuette
    > et al. 1980, Licata et al. 1981). Cola drinks that contain phosphoric
    > acid are another acidosis-inducing ingredient of diet, especially among
    > young people (Barzel 1995). [...]''
    >
    > - http://herkules.oulu.fi/isbn9514253620/html/x193.html
    > --


    It does not follow that a diet a that is rich in animal protein usually or
    even often leads to a mild chronic acidosis or that this is harmful.

    Again, it is far more improtant that people do other things, like avoid
    obesity and be more active.

    Jeff

    > __________
    > |im |yler http://timtyler.org/ [email protected]
     
  17. In <[email protected]>, Jeff wrote:

    > Of course it is not foolproof. But it works so well that normally we don't
    > need to worry about blood or body pH.


    When we do, it's almost always respiratory.

    --
    | Microsoft: "A reputation for releasing inferior software will make |
    | it more difficult for a software vendor to induce customers to pay |
    | for new products or new versions of existing products." |
    end
     
  18. Tim Tyler

    Tim Tyler Guest

    In sci.med.nutrition Robert <[email protected]> wrote:

    : Any person with kidney stones would tell how unproductive diet is in
    : avoiding stone formation. The best thing to do is drink plenty of
    : water to dilute anything there but rest assured to total acid load
    : excretion is the same only diluted in the volume.

    ``Kidney Stones: Diet Is Important for Prevention''

    The factors involved in the formation of kidney stones vary. One dietary
    factor is an excess of refined sugars and carbohydrates. This causes the
    pancreas to secrete more insulin, which in turn causes more calcium to
    be excreted in the urine. When an increase in the concentration of one
    of the stone forming minerals is present, the likelihood of stone
    formation increases.''

    - http://www.healthyroads.com/mylibrary/data/ash_ref/htm/art_kidneystones.asp

    ``Changing your diet can dramatically reduce your risk of making more
    kidney stones.''

    - http://www.marinurology.com/articles/calculi/dietary.htm
    --
    __________
    |im |yler http://timtyler.org/ [email protected]
     
  19. Carole

    Carole Guest

    "Jeff" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > "alan jones" <[email protected]_com> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > > > I live my kidneys.

    > >
    > > You may even love your kidneys, but to say an healthy kidney nurtralises
    > > the effect of a food's pH, is to totally miss the point. Foodstuff still

    > place a
    > > "dietary hydrogen (H+) load" upon the kidneys. What happens when through
    > > a faulty life style and poor information the bulk of that load is acid

    > forming?
    > >
    > > " The liver and kidneys have a limited capability to neutralise and
    > > eliminate a certain about of acids. "

    >
    > True. However, humans evolved with a variety of diets in a variety of areas
    > of the world. Limited does not mean that we come anywhere near the limites
    > without normal diets.
    >
    > > " It is estimated that the liver and kidneys can clean up about 8 units
    > > a day. One pound of meat can generate as much as 18 units of uric
    > > acid. If the liver and kidneys can only handle 8 of the 18 units of

    > uric
    > > acid, who or what does the rest? The answer, minerals. "

    >
    > Actaully, the anwer is urine. Uric acid, urea and other wastes is why we
    > pee.
    >
    > >

    > http://groups.google.com/[email protected]&output=gplain
    > >
    > > http://www.healthlibrary.com/reading/ncure/chap11.htm

    >
    > This site is totally stupid. I already mentioned, the kidneys get rid of
    > excess acid in urine.


    That isn't strictly true. What happens in the case of gout? This is
    when a person has too much uric acid which can't be eliminated and it
    forms crystals which accumulate around the feet and cause agony in the
    sufferer.

    I don't think modern medicine really has much of an idea about
    treating this condition because I once knew a bloke who got regular
    attacks which were very debilitating, causing him to have to stay home
    with his feet up. He had been to the top rheumatic specialists in
    Australia and they prescribed a drug called butazoladene (sp?) which
    wouldn't stop an attack once it occurred, just prevented an attack.
    However the side effects were dangerous if he took too much of the
    drug.

    I told him about sodium phosphate and sodium sulphate tablets which he
    took a couple each day for a year and never got an attack during that
    period. Then he did an experiment and went off them and the attacks
    began to return. He ended up swearing by the cellsalts and said he
    would recommend them to any other sufferer of the condition, over the
    drugs.

    Sodium phosphate is known as the acid neutraliser and sodium sulphate
    removes poison charged fluids from the cells, the poison I assume is
    waste products from food metabolism.

    > you need to provide real evidence this diet works, like peer-reviewed
    > journal articles, not stupid web sites.


    Bullshit. Everybody knows that conventional medicine is geared towards
    pharmaceutical drugs and denies the efficacy of foods, vitamins and
    minerals in treating conditions.

    > > The kidney works well enough until it doesn't. The old adage 'prevention
    > > is better than cure' comes readily to mind. Prevention lies with the

    > information
    > > about us and our willingness to take heed.

    >
    > Can you provide evidence that in people without known kidney disease, too
    > much meat leads to kidney or liver damage? In people with kidney disease, it
    > is known that limiting protein prolongs the life of the kidneys.


    Just open your eyes and ears to all the chronic disease in our society
    which modern medicine is at a complete loss to cure. Work it out for
    yourself - modern medicine isn't going to "spill the beans" on itself,
    is it?

    Modern medicine is unable to cure asthma, allergies, dementia,
    arthritis, rheumatism, diabetes and so on. All chronic diseases
    resulting from faulty diets - but they won't tell you that, you figure
    it out from reading alternative health information and thinking for
    yourself.

    Carole
    http://www.austarmetro.com.au/~hubbca/cellsalts.htm
     
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