The advandtage of incompatibility?

[Ivar Hesselager]

Technically speaking, what makes a Shimano 10 speed hub incompatible with
9 speed cassettes? Since Shimano 9 speed hubs are compatible with 10 speed
cassettes, what reason could Shimano possibly have to choose to make the
10 speed hubs incompatible with the 9 speed cassettes?

I have one bike with 9 speed STI and one with 10 speed STI – and I am
perfectly happy with both of them. I have no problems nor any advantages
with the 10 speed.

Now I am going to build a new pair of semi aero wheels that I can use on
either bike. I have been able to find a DA 7700 rear hub in Britain and a
front hub in Germany. Evidently 9 speed hubs are beginning to get scarce.

I can see that DT Swiss also has chosen to make their newest hubs
incompatible with 9 speed cassettes and STI’s. What is their gain? I see
only disadvantages.


Ivar of Denmark


--
Sendt med Operas banebrydende postklient:
http://www.opera.com/mail/

 

[Kurd]

Shimano's new aluminum freehub bodies' splines are taller than the 9 speed
freehub bodies.

 

[bfd]

On Jun 29, 3:23 pm, "Ivar Hesselager" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Technically speaking, what makes a Shimano 10 speed hub incompatible with
> 9 speed cassettes? Since Shimano 9 speed hubs are compatible with 10 speed
> cassettes, what reason could Shimano possibly have to choose to make the
> 10 speed hubs incompatible with the 9 speed cassettes?
>
The only Shimano 10 rear hub that is incompatible with its 8 or 9
speed cassette is the Dura Ace 10 model 7800 rear hub. ALL other
shimano 10 hubs will work with 8 or 9 speed cassette.

Why is the Dura Ace 10 model 7800 rear hub incompatible with 8 or 9
speed cassette? Here's Shimano's response:

"2004 Dura-Ace (10-speed) Freehubs were completely redsigned. The
Freehub body is now attached to the axle, rather than to the shell.
The purpose of this was to save weight and to have the pawls act at a
larger radius.

Also in an effort to save weight, the 2004 Dura-Ace Freehub body is
aluminum. Aluminum Freehub bodies from various other manufacturers
have been a bit dodgy, because the material doesn't hold up well
against the concentrated pressure of steel sprockets. For this model
hub, Shimano raised the Freehub body splines to provide more secure
engagement. *As a result the 2004 Dura-Ace Freehub won't fit older
cassettes.*"

"Dura-Ace 10 freehubs have taller splines than other Shimano models.
As a result, it is not possible to install cassettes other than 10-
speed models on Dura-Ace 7800 hubs. It is not, however necessary to
use Dura-Ace 10 speed cassettes. The Ultegra 10 speed cassettes also
accommodate the taller splines of the 7800 hubs.

The interchangeability issue only applies to that particular hub. The
10-speed cassettes will fit on any Shimano 8- or 9-speed Freehub with
no problems.

The Ultegra 10-speed group introduced for the 2005 model year has no
such limit for the standard hubs, but there is one Ultegra complete
wheelset that shares this limitation."

link: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/dura-ace.html#hubs

Note -

 

[[email protected]]

On Jun 29, 4:23 pm, "Ivar Hesselager" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Technically speaking, what makes a Shimano 10 speed hub incompatible with
> 9 speed cassettes? Since Shimano 9 speed hubs are compatible with 10 speed
> cassettes, what reason could Shimano possibly have to choose to make the
> 10 speed hubs incompatible with the 9 speed cassettes?
>
> I have one bike with 9 speed STI and one with 10 speed STI - and I am
> perfectly happy with both of them. I have no problems nor any advantages
> with the 10 speed.
>
> Now I am going to build a new pair of semi aero wheels that I can use on
> either bike. I have been able to find a DA 7700 rear hub in Britain and a
> front hub in Germany. Evidently 9 speed hubs are beginning to get scarce.
>
> I can see that DT Swiss also has chosen to make their newest hubs
> incompatible with 9 speed cassettes and STI's. What is their gain? I see
> only disadvantages.
>
> Ivar of Denmark
>
> --
> Sendt med Operas banebrydende postklient:http://www.opera.com/mail/



You are clearly looking for the answer in the wrong newsgroup. This is
rec.bicycles.technology. You need to post your question in
rec.bicycles.economics.

Inocmpatibility is a strategy of capitalism to be able to fabicate
needs and design new commodities to meet those needs. The strategy is
called "planned obsolence". This allows a company to make more money.
If shimano continued to sell 9 speed hubs that were compatible with 10
speed cassettes, it would make less profit than by forcing everone who
has a 9 speed hub to get a 10 speed one if they want the extra
sprocket.

Andres

 

[Kurd]

> The only Shimano 10 rear hub that is incompatible with its 8 or 9
> speed cassette is the Dura Ace 10 model 7800 rear hub. ALL other
> shimano 10 hubs will work with 8 or 9 speed cassette.
>

That's not exactly true, the WH-6600 is also 10 speed only.

 

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> Inocmpatibility is a strategy of capitalism to be able to fabicate
> needs and design new commodities to meet those needs. The strategy is
> called "planned obsolence". This allows a company to make more money.
> If shimano continued to sell 9 speed hubs that were compatible with 10
> speed cassettes, it would make less profit than by forcing everone who
> has a 9 speed hub to get a 10 speed one if they want the extra
> sprocket.


I'm as cynical as the next guy (often more so), but I don't think your
answer rings true. Shimano's not a stupid company, and no doubt understands
that their insistence on incompatibility betweeen 10 & 9/8-speed systems
costs them quite a few sales, by opening the door a bit further for all the
other wheel & hub manufacturers out there. The net effect, in other words,
is negative (for Shimano wheel & hub sales), not positive.

I think they honestly believe that the deeper cuts in their cassette mech
are a good thing (which they are) and pretty much a requirement for
reliable, long-term operation on an aluminum body. Not that that's what I
believe, but it's certainly been pointed out strongly here, in the past,
that cassette cogs on everyone else's aluminum bodies tend to dig in and
rotate around the body a bit.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA


<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Jun 29, 4:23 pm, "Ivar Hesselager" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> Technically speaking, what makes a Shimano 10 speed hub incompatible with
>> 9 speed cassettes? Since Shimano 9 speed hubs are compatible with 10
>> speed
>> cassettes, what reason could Shimano possibly have to choose to make the
>> 10 speed hubs incompatible with the 9 speed cassettes?
>>
>> I have one bike with 9 speed STI and one with 10 speed STI - and I am
>> perfectly happy with both of them. I have no problems nor any advantages
>> with the 10 speed.
>>
>> Now I am going to build a new pair of semi aero wheels that I can use on
>> either bike. I have been able to find a DA 7700 rear hub in Britain and a
>> front hub in Germany. Evidently 9 speed hubs are beginning to get scarce.
>>
>> I can see that DT Swiss also has chosen to make their newest hubs
>> incompatible with 9 speed cassettes and STI's. What is their gain? I see
>> only disadvantages.
>>
>> Ivar of Denmark
>>
>> --
>> Sendt med Operas banebrydende postklient:http://www.opera.com/mail/
>
>
>
> You are clearly looking for the answer in the wrong newsgroup. This is
> rec.bicycles.technology. You need to post your question in
> rec.bicycles.economics.
>
> Inocmpatibility is a strategy of capitalism to be able to fabicate
> needs and design new commodities to meet those needs. The strategy is
> called "planned obsolence". This allows a company to make more money.
> If shimano continued to sell 9 speed hubs that were compatible with 10
> speed cassettes, it would make less profit than by forcing everone who
> has a 9 speed hub to get a 10 speed one if they want the extra
> sprocket.
>
> Andres
>

 

[David L. Johnson]

Ivar Hesselager wrote:
>
> I can see that DT Swiss also has chosen to make their newest hubs
> incompatible with 9 speed cassettes and STI’s. What is their gain? I see
> only disadvantages.

?? If someone wants 10-speed they have to buy a new hub. Sounds like
their gain is the sale of an unnecessary replacement hub.

--

David L. Johnson

Accept risk. Accept responsibility. Put a lawyer out of business.

 

[jim beam]

Ivar Hesselager wrote:
> Technically speaking, what makes a Shimano 10 speed hub incompatible
> with 9 speed cassettes? Since Shimano 9 speed hubs are compatible with
> 10 speed cassettes, what reason could Shimano possibly have to choose to
> make the 10 speed hubs incompatible with the 9 speed cassettes?
>
> I have one bike with 9 speed STI and one with 10 speed STI – and I am
> perfectly happy with both of them. I have no problems nor any advantages
> with the 10 speed.
>
> Now I am going to build a new pair of semi aero wheels that I can use on
> either bike. I have been able to find a DA 7700 rear hub in Britain and
> a front hub in Germany. Evidently 9 speed hubs are beginning to get scarce.
>
> I can see that DT Swiss also has chosen to make their newest hubs
> incompatible with 9 speed cassettes and STI’s. What is their gain? I see
> only disadvantages.
>
>

the advantage is the use of an aluminum freehub body and consequent
weight saving. shallow splines and aluminum freehub bodies don't mix.

 

[Ivar Hesselager]

Thankyouall for your input. I accept there is some technical advandtage
in the new design of the freewheel body in the 10 speed hub. They
aparantly didn't change it only to make it incompatible.

But it seems obvious to me, that Shimano could have chosen to design the
free wheel body for mutual compatibility - accepting that the 9 speed
cassettes wouldn't benefit from the higher splines. I think it should be
possible to renew only the freewheel body and keep the hub unchanged for 9
or 10 speed.


Ivar

 

[jim beam]

Ivar Hesselager wrote:
> Thankyouall for your input. I accept there is some technical advandtage
> in the new design of the freewheel body in the 10 speed hub. They
> aparantly didn't change it only to make it incompatible.
>
> But it seems obvious to me, that Shimano could have chosen to design the
> free wheel body for mutual compatibility - accepting that the 9 speed
> cassettes wouldn't benefit from the higher splines. I think it should be
> possible to renew only the freewheel body and keep the hub unchanged for
> 9 or 10 speed.
>
>
> Ivar


bottom line, if shimano really wanted, they could have changed to a
completely different spline pattern and immediately stopped production
of any 9-speed parts. instead, we have high end parts that accept other
high end parts, low end parts that accept both, and continued production
of 9-speed components in the very serviceable [and cheap] tiagra line.
it's not such a big deal.

 

[A Muzi]

> Ivar Hesselager wrote:
>> Thankyouall for your input. I accept there is some technical
>> advandtage in the new design of the freewheel body in the 10 speed
>> hub. They aparantly didn't change it only to make it incompatible.
>> But it seems obvious to me, that Shimano could have chosen to design
>> the free wheel body for mutual compatibility - accepting that the 9
>> speed cassettes wouldn't benefit from the higher splines. I think it
>> should be possible to renew only the freewheel body and keep the hub
>> unchanged for 9 or 10 speed.

jim beam wrote:
> bottom line, if shimano really wanted, they could have changed to a
> completely different spline pattern and immediately stopped production
> of any 9-speed parts. instead, we have high end parts that accept other
> high end parts, low end parts that accept both, and continued production
> of 9-speed components in the very serviceable [and cheap] tiagra line.
> it's not such a big deal.

Mr Beam and I are at one today. Most 9 bikes can go Ten with a cassette,
chain and shifter. Cheaply if you wish. Several vendors offer a spectrum
of products.

The world has real problems but this isn't one.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[Bill Lloyd]

On 2007-06-29 15:40:46 -0700, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> said:

> On Jun 29, 4:23 pm, "Ivar Hesselager" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> Technically speaking, what makes a Shimano 10 speed hub incompatible with
>> 9 speed cassettes? Since Shimano 9 speed hubs are compatible with 10 speed
>> cassettes, what reason could Shimano possibly have to choose to make the
>> 10 speed hubs incompatible with the 9 speed cassettes?
>>
>> I have one bike with 9 speed STI and one with 10 speed STI - and I am
>> perfectly happy with both of them. I have no problems nor any advantages
>> with the 10 speed.
>>
>> Now I am going to build a new pair of semi aero wheels that I can use on
>> either bike. I have been able to find a DA 7700 rear hub in Britain and a
>> front hub in Germany. Evidently 9 speed hubs are beginning to get scarce.
>>
>> I can see that DT Swiss also has chosen to make their newest hubs
>> incompatible with 9 speed cassettes and STI's. What is their gain? I see
>> only disadvantages.
>>
>> Ivar of Denmark
>>
>> --
>> Sendt med Operas banebrydende postklient:http://www.opera.com/mail/
>
>
>
> You are clearly looking for the answer in the wrong newsgroup. This is
> rec.bicycles.technology. You need to post your question in
> rec.bicycles.economics.
>
> Inocmpatibility is a strategy of capitalism to be able to fabicate
> needs and design new commodities to meet those needs. The strategy is
> called "planned obsolence". This allows a company to make more money.
> If shimano continued to sell 9 speed hubs that were compatible with 10
> speed cassettes, it would make less profit than by forcing everone who
> has a 9 speed hub to get a 10 speed one if they want the extra
> sprocket.
>
> Andres

Not completely true. The 10-speed cassettes have deeper splines, which
mean there's more surface area to interface with the cogsets. This
means you can use an aluminum freehub body without experiencing the
"notching" that you'd get with the old design (Shimano only made steel
or Ti cassette bodies of the old design, but 3rd parties used aluminum
in many cases). Using an aluminum body with the old design would notch
(not as bad with the cassettes on the carriers), and sometimes you
couldn't get the cogs off the body when they'd notched it real well.
Or, at least, it took a lot of work.

There are some definite advantages to the new design.

 

[Hank Wirtz]

On Jun 29, 7:31 pm, "David L. Johnson" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Ivar Hesselager wrote:
>
> > I can see that DT Swiss also has chosen to make their newest hubs
> > incompatible with 9 speed cassettes and STI's. What is their gain? I see
> > only disadvantages.
>
> ?? If someone wants 10-speed they have to buy a new hub. Sounds like
> their gain is the sale of an unnecessary replacement hub.

You're not paying attention. 10-speed cassettes work on all 8/9 speed
hubs. The incompatibility lies in trying to put an 8 or 9 speed
cassette on a FH-7800 hub.

 

[Ivar Hesselager]

Den 01.07.2007 kl. 01:40 skrev A Muzi <[email protected]>:

>> Ivar Hesselager wrote:
>>> Thankyouall for your input. I accept there is some technical
>>> advandtage in the new design of the freewheel body in the 10 speed
>>> hub. They aparantly didn't change it only to make it incompatible.
>>> But it seems obvious to me, that Shimano could have chosen to design
>>> the free wheel body for mutual compatibility - accepting that the 9
>>> speed cassettes wouldn't benefit from the higher splines. I think it
>>> should be possible to renew only the freewheel body and keep the hub
>>> unchanged for 9 or 10 speed.
>
> jim beam wrote:
>> bottom line, if shimano really wanted, they could have changed to a
>> completely different spline pattern and immediately stopped production
>> of any 9-speed parts. instead, we have high end parts that accept
>> other high end parts, low end parts that accept both, and continued
>> production of 9-speed components in the very serviceable [and cheap]
>> tiagra line. it's not such a big deal.
>
> Mr Beam and I are at one today. Most 9 bikes can go Ten with a cassette,
> chain and shifter. Cheaply if you wish. Several vendors offer a spectrum
> of products.
>
> The world has real problems but this isn't one.


The problem is, that you forgot, what my problem was: to find a new hub in
no less than Ultegra quality for at new wheel to my only three years old 9
speed racer. Sure it's not a real problem. It's only a challenge. But
it's even a greater challenge to understand, what in the world of bicycle
technology should prohibit Shimano from making a Ultegra 10 speed hub that
is compatible with the 9 speed cassettes.
You didn't beam a lot of light on that question. Marketing interest seems
to be the best explanation given so far. Imagining that Shimano could
have done even worse doesn’t make them any better.

Ivar

 

[Hank Wirtz]

On Jul 6, 2:56 pm, "Ivar Hesselager" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Den 01.07.2007 kl. 01:40 skrev A Muzi <[email protected]>:
>
>
>
>
>
> >> Ivar Hesselager wrote:
> >>> Thankyouall for your input. I accept there is some technical
> >>> advandtage in the new design of the freewheel body in the 10 speed
> >>> hub. They aparantly didn't change it only to make it incompatible.
> >>> But it seems obvious to me, that Shimano could have chosen to design
> >>> the free wheel body for mutual compatibility - accepting that the 9
> >>> speed cassettes wouldn't benefit from the higher splines. I think it
> >>> should be possible to renew only the freewheel body and keep the hub
> >>> unchanged for 9 or 10 speed.
>
> > jim beam wrote:
> >> bottom line, if shimano really wanted, they could have changed to a
> >> completely different spline pattern and immediately stopped production
> >> of any 9-speed parts. instead, we have high end parts that accept
> >> other high end parts, low end parts that accept both, and continued
> >> production of 9-speed components in the very serviceable [and cheap]
> >> tiagra line. it's not such a big deal.
>
> > Mr Beam and I are at one today. Most 9 bikes can go Ten with a cassette,
> > chain and shifter. Cheaply if you wish. Several vendors offer a spectrum
> > of products.
>
> > The world has real problems but this isn't one.
>
> The problem is, that you forgot, what my problem was: to find a new hub in
> no less than Ultegra quality for at new wheel to my only three years old 9
> speed racer. Sure it's not a real problem. It's only a challenge. But
> it's even a greater challenge to understand, what in the world of bicycle
> technology should prohibit Shimano from making a Ultegra 10 speed hub that
> is compatible with the 9 speed cassettes.
> You didn't beam a lot of light on that question. Marketing interest seems
> to be the best explanation given so far. Imagining that Shimano could
> have done even worse doesn't make them any better.
>
> Ivar- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

FH-6600. There's your guy. Compatible with either 9 or 10 speeds.

It may have confused things when someone mentioned WH-6600, the
Ultegra wheelset that has the aluminum FH body, and is 10-speed only,
but the standalone hub still has the steel 8/9/10 compatible body.

 

[A Muzi]

>>> Ivar Hesselager wrote:
>>>> Thankyouall for your input. I accept there is some technical
>>>> advandtage in the new design of the freewheel body in the 10 speed
>>>> hub. They aparantly didn't change it only to make it incompatible.
>>>> But it seems obvious to me, that Shimano could have chosen to design
>>>> the free wheel body for mutual compatibility - accepting that the 9
>>>> speed cassettes wouldn't benefit from the higher splines. I think it
>>>> should be possible to renew only the freewheel body and keep the hub
>>>> unchanged for 9 or 10 speed.

>> jim beam wrote:
>>> bottom line, if shimano really wanted, they could have changed to a
>>> completely different spline pattern and immediately stopped
>>> production of any 9-speed parts. instead, we have high end parts
>>> that accept other high end parts, low end parts that accept both, and
>>> continued production of 9-speed components in the very serviceable
>>> [and cheap] tiagra line. it's not such a big deal.

> A Muzi <[email protected]>:
>> Mr Beam and I are at one today. Most 9 bikes can go Ten with a
>> cassette, chain and shifter. Cheaply if you wish. Several vendors
>> offer a spectrum of products.
>> The world has real problems but this isn't one.

Ivar Hesselager wrote:
> The problem is, that you forgot, what my problem was: to find a new hub
> in no less than Ultegra quality for at new wheel to my only three years
> old 9 speed racer. Sure it's not a real problem. It's only a
> challenge. But it's even a greater challenge to understand, what in
> the world of bicycle technology should prohibit Shimano from making a
> Ultegra 10 speed hub that is compatible with the 9 speed cassettes.
> You didn't beam a lot of light on that question. Marketing interest
> seems to be the best explanation given so far. Imagining that Shimano
> could have done even worse doesn’t make them any better.

I could have been more clear but I though that was covered already.
There are lots of eight/nine hubs (mid-90s to present) which can accept
a Ten cassette; Velocity, Phil, any 8/9 Shimano product, dozens of
aftermarket label hubs. Only the latest Shimano Ult/DA models are 'ten
only'. Don't forget SRAM/AmClassic Ten cassettes on those 8/9 hubs.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971