the aerobic engine (mitochondria) and those nasty fast twitch fibres

[quenya]

Oops double post.

 

[edd]

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming .


Wow, if that's the debate going on then I've totally misread Edd's questions but that's a distinct possibility as I wrote that as I waited in an airport at the tail end of a travel day from hell and I was pretty punchy.

I took this question as 'when do actual adaptations occur' and I strongly believe they occur post workout not during the workout for the reasons listed. IOW, we stress our bodies with the work but it's when we get off the bike and recover that our bodies begin to adapt. Yeah, maybe that's too black and white as we're adapting every second of every day or IOW we're regenerating cells and tissue every second of every day and the question is whether that next batch of cells is just slightly better adapted to the stresses we're applying during training. But it takes an awful lot of new cells to see measurable improvement and that takes time as in days, weeks, months, and years. So from a practical standpoint we're not measurably fitter during the current workout but that fitness comes post workout(s).

So the part I was debating was the assertion that we are aerobically fittest as we step off the bike and then the fitness decays with time. That doesn't jive with my understanding of the time course of physiological adaptations or the general model of training stress, recovery, and super compensation.

But I don't see any of that as leaning towards single workouts vs. multiple daily workouts from a 'which is better for progress' standpoint but then maybe I'm missing something.

-Dave

I should apologise, I do bait the thread a bit to entice a variety in the responses.

That said there are huge differences in the time required in workout and post workout recovery for the adaption process for aerobic fitness training. I have no argument to what you are saying, in fact I totally agree with you. However in base building work at a easy pace for extended periods - the building of mitochondria occurs when ?



Single workouts v multiple daily workouts provide different training stimulus and different adaptation. The differences maybe very very subtle.
The stress the body is subject to is different, ie:

Single workouts greater demand on fuel (glycogen). Intensity may be slightly less because of a longer training duration. Recovery may be slightly more.

Multiple daily workouts may be shorter and more intense. Less demand of fuel. Recovery periods different as you may only be partially recovered on your second or third training session.

Ones not better or worse than the other - they are just going to produce slightly different results. It really depends what you are training for and what time you have available to train. I would really like to bend this back to base building work but I have to go to work.

 

[edd]

Originally Posted by quenya .

Looking at the PMC I can see where one might be led to believe that fitness begins to decay as soon as one steps from the bike, because the CTL (or LTS in skiba's terms) behaves that way and CTL for better or worse is often equated to 'fitness.'

IME a big training stress one weekend with a lighter than average week leaves me riding well a week later, once the fatigue has subsided, but I often find I'm really flying 2 weeks after a big weekend or big challenge ride even if I'm not as fresh as the prior week. I know that 2 weeks is less than the 6 weeks generally Dave mentioned (and has valid science/physiology whereas I have anecdote...) but I think these may be adaptations that happen in a shorter time frame that get lost in the 'wash' of a whole 6 week training cycle.

Overall fitness does not decay as soon as you get of the bike, in fact there is also "after burn" effect where your body is still under the stress of training for short time after you have stopped and then when recovery begins, to over compensate, improvement. I'm trying (through this thread) to delaminate aspect of the adaptation process, different things happen at different times over different periods of time.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Originally Posted by edd .


I should apologise, I do bait the thread a bit to entice a variety in the responses.....

I guess it's somewhat refreshing when someone openly admits to trolling the boards.

-Dave

 

[edd]

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming .


I guess it's somewhat refreshing when someone openly admits to trolling the boards.

-Dave

Trolling, bit harsh -

I was under the delusion that I was simply tossing berley.

 

[edd]

Best kept training secret:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RY78Yt3U9c

Getting back to the original post - the mitochondria thing - some might argue that recovery is best done on the bike.

 

[quenya]

Some 'might' argue that. There are certainly benefits to a recovery ride, but others may argue that recovery happens in bed... Personally I think recovery happens at virtually all times.

 

[Felt_Rider]

Originally Posted by quenya .

Personally I think recovery happens at virtually all times.

I am with you on this one.
I have my thoughts, but have limited time to discuss.

 

[danfoz]

Originally Posted by quenya .

Some 'might' argue that. There are certainly benefits to a recovery ride, but others may argue that recovery happens in bed... Personally I think recovery happens at virtually all times.

El pistoliero claimed his secret in 2010 was getting an extra 30 mins of sleep a night figuring by the end of the Tour he'd have a full nights sleep over his competitors. Whether it was the rest or the clenbuterol is anybody's guess.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Originally Posted by edd .

Trolling, bit harsh -

I was under the delusion that I was simply tossing berley.

Yeah, meant to have a smiley on that post

Yep, trolling has morphed into the big bad ugly of the internet and attempting to incite flame wars but a long time ago we used the term to describe intentionally baiting a debate or intentionally proposing ideas counter to your actual beliefs in an attempt to stir debate. Maybe not as ugly as the practice has become but there's definitely something disingenuous about baiting a debate only to back out later and say "hey I don't actually believe that". Basically leaving those who bothered to engage in your baited discussion feeling a bit manipulated in the process. Would you start a face to face discussion that way by asking a baited question only to back out of that stance later without at least prefacing with something like 'well to play the devil's advocate' or otherwise let those you're talking with know what kind of discussion they're having?

But no, not lumping you in with what trolling has devolved into.

-Dave

 

[edd]

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming .


Yeah, meant to have a smiley on that post

Yep, trolling has morphed into the big bad ugly of the internet and attempting to incite flame wars but a long time ago we used the term to describe intentionally baiting a debate or intentionally proposing ideas counter to your actual beliefs in an attempt to stir debate. Maybe not as ugly as the practice has become but there's definitely something disingenuous about baiting a debate only to back out later and say "hey I don't actually believe that". Basically leaving those who bothered to engage in your baited discussion feeling a bit manipulated in the process. Would you start a face to face discussion that way by asking a baited question only to back out of that stance later without at least prefacing with something like 'well to play the devil's advocate' or otherwise let those you're talking with know what kind of discussion they're having?

But no, not lumping you in with what trolling has devolved into.

-Dave

my intentions were to shine some light for those who apear to be in the dark and to learn from others who have a brighter light.

/img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif

 

[edd]

Originally Posted by danfoz .


El pistoliero claimed his secret in 2010 was getting an extra 30 mins of sleep a night figuring by the end of the Tour he'd have a full nights sleep over his competitors. Whether it was the rest or the clenbuterol is anybody's guess.

Sometimes the body has had enough sleep and the legs are still wanting more recovery. I remember not being able to sit comfortably in a chair due to leg fatigue and then feeling much better after spending 30 min on a indoor bike spinning air.