The beginning of the end for Isis?



B

Bomba

Guest
So, after the repeated problems with Isis, one of the main
proponents of the system has released an alternative system.
Race Face has produced the 'X-Type' with external bearings
in a similar fashion to Shimano's Octalink.

The reasoning behind these designs is that the BB shell is
too small to fit in decent bearings and a decent spindle.
So, why not just make the BB shells bigger?

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"bomba" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:p[email protected]...
> So, after the repeated problems with Isis, one of the main
> proponents of the system has released an alternative
> system. Race Face has produced the 'X-Type' with external
> bearings in a similar fashion to Shimano's
Octalink.
>
> The reasoning behind these designs is that the BB shell is
> too small to fit in decent bearings and a decent spindle.
> So, why not just make the BB shells bigger?

Industry inertia. Seen any bikes with 1.5" heads recently?

Andy Chequer
 
On Fri, 14 May 2004 10:27:07 +0100, Andy Chequer wrote:

>> The reasoning behind these designs is that the BB shell
>> is too small to fit in decent bearings and a decent
>> spindle. So, why not just make the BB shells bigger?
>
> Industry inertia. Seen any bikes with 1.5" heads recently?

The 1.5" headset was a limited idea, that is still in use
for many of the bikes for which it was designed (freeride
single-crown bikes).

A larger BB shell would benefit all mtbs. But of course, you
have to get past industry intertia, as you say.

--
a.m-b FAQ: http://www.j-harris.net/bike/ambfaq.htm

b.bmx FAQ: http://www.t-online.de/~jharris/bmx_faq.htm
 
"bomba" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:p[email protected]...
> On Fri, 14 May 2004 10:27:07 +0100, Andy Chequer wrote:
>
> >> The reasoning behind these designs is that the BB shell
> >> is too small to fit in decent bearings and a decent
> >> spindle. So, why not just make the
BB
> >> shells bigger?
> >
> > Industry inertia. Seen any bikes with 1.5" heads
> > recently?
>
> The 1.5" headset was a limited idea, that is still in use
> for many of the bikes for which it was designed (freeride
> single-crown bikes).
>
> A larger BB shell would benefit all mtbs. But of course,
> you have to get past industry intertia, as you say.
>

The Spanish BB is the way forward

http://flybikesbmx.com/noticias/spanishbb02eng.htm

Steve.
 
"bomba" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:p[email protected]...
> On Fri, 14 May 2004 10:27:07 +0100, Andy Chequer wrote:
>
> >> The reasoning behind these designs is that the BB shell
> >> is too small to fit in decent bearings and a decent
> >> spindle. So, why not just make the
BB
> >> shells bigger?
> >
> > Industry inertia. Seen any bikes with 1.5" heads
> > recently?
>
> The 1.5" headset was a limited idea, that is still in use
> for many of the bikes for which it was designed (freeride
> single-crown bikes).
>
> A larger BB shell would benefit all mtbs. But of course,
> you have to get past industry intertia, as you say.

JOOI, what were the issues with ISIS? ISTR that some cheaper
ones were getting failed axles but I'm guessing that the
bearings are the likely weak point.

Anecdotal as it may be, but Binkie's had taper Syncros
cranks/UN91 for a couple of years and I've had no hassles.
I don't leave the ground much but my Clydesdale legs
generally bring out the worst in crank/BB combos. All I'm
saying is that design is one aspect, materials and
manufacture are others.

Spanish thing Spadey pointed out is interesting though. That
press fit or threaded?

Andy Chequer
 
On Fri, 14 May 2004 11:08:08 +0200, bomba <[email protected]>
wrote:

>So, after the repeated problems with Isis, one of the main
>proponents of the system has released an alternative
>system. Race Face has produced the 'X-Type' with external
>bearings in a similar fashion to Shimano's Octalink.
>
>The reasoning behind these designs is that the BB shell is
>too small to fit in decent bearings and a decent spindle.
>So, why not just make the BB shells bigger?

Nice discussion on BB's, Bill The mind serves properly as a
window glass rather than as a reflector, that is, the mind
should give an immediate view instead of an interpretation
of the world.
:-]
 
"Andy Chequer" <andy@(youdontwantthisbitinit)thisisasparagus.com> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
>
> "bomba" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:p[email protected]...
> > On Fri, 14 May 2004 10:27:07 +0100, Andy Chequer wrote:
> >
> > >> The reasoning behind these designs is that the BB
> > >> shell is too small
to
> > >> fit in decent bearings and a decent spindle. So, why
> > >> not just make
the
> BB
> > >> shells bigger?
> > >
> > > Industry inertia. Seen any bikes with 1.5" heads
> > > recently?
> >
> > The 1.5" headset was a limited idea, that is still in
> > use for many of
the
> > bikes for which it was designed (freeride single-crown
> > bikes).
> >
> > A larger BB shell would benefit all mtbs. But of course,
> > you have to get past industry intertia, as you say.
>
> JOOI, what were the issues with ISIS? ISTR that some
> cheaper ones were getting failed axles but I'm guessing
> that the bearings are the likely
weak
> point.
>
> Anecdotal as it may be, but Binkie's had taper Syncros
> cranks/UN91 for a couple of years and I've had no hassles.
> I don't leave the ground much but my Clydesdale legs
> generally bring out the worst in crank/BB combos. All
I'm
> saying is that design is one aspect, materials and
> manufacture are others.
>
> Spanish thing Spadey pointed out is interesting though.
> That press fit or threaded?
>
> Andy Chequer

I suspect its press fit, but I could be wrong. If they
combined it with Profiles new evolution style BB then it
would be superb - good size axle and bearings, press fit so
no threads to feck up and easy installation/removal

"The Evolution bottom bracket confronts these variations
with a male/female threaded cup design that secures itself
to the outside edges of the frame bottom bracket shell. With
use of the proprietary Evolution wrenches (included with
your Evolution purchase when ordering online), the Evolution
bottom bracket is self-installing and self-removing by
either tightening or loosening the respective halves to each
other. No more presses, hammers and chisels needed! Because
the Evolution bottom bracket is essentially a single unit
when it is installed, perfect bearing alignment is achieved
thus allowing the crank arm assembly to spin freely like
never before"

http://www.profileracing.com/

Steve.
 
"bomba" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:p[email protected]...
> So, after the repeated problems with Isis, one of the main
> proponents of the system has released an alternative
> system. Race Face has produced the 'X-Type' with external
> bearings in a similar fashion to Shimano's
Octalink.

I was looking at that new system in the LBS the other day,
it actually follows the design of the Bulls Eye Crank also.
Its fricking expensive but it looks promising.

- CA-G

Can-Am Girls Kick Ass!
 
>The reasoning behind these designs is that the BB shell is
>too small to fit in decent bearings and a decent spindle.
>So, why not just make the BB shells bigger?

Or better yet, just make the spindle skinnier. Granted it
couldn't be hollow, but you could use some kind of tapered
press fit to attach the cranks to the spindle - I suppose a
square shape would work pretty well....

-Andrew "if it ain't broke..." Thorne
 
On Fri, 14 May 2004 11:20:46 +0100, Andy Chequer wrote:

> JOOI, what were the issues with ISIS? ISTR that some
> cheaper ones were getting failed axles but I'm guessing
> that the bearings are the likely weak point.

Indeed. Many people have had problems with the bearing life
in the Isis system, which is speculated to be caused by
using smaller bearings than the taper design.

> Spanish thing Spadey pointed out is interesting though.
> That press fit or threaded?

Press fit at a guess. The problem is that Fly are working on
their own. If they'd garnered support from frame and parts
manufacturers beforehand, I could see it becoming more
widespread. However, even if they do succeed in the BMX
world, getting a tranferal to the MTB market is a whole
other 'bouillon de poisson'.

--
a.m-b FAQ: http://www.j-harris.net/bike/ambfaq.htm

b.bmx FAQ: http://www.t-online.de/~jharris/bmx_faq.htm
 
bomba said:

> So, after the repeated problems with Isis, one of the main
> proponents of the system has released an alternative
> system. Race Face has produced the 'X-Type' with external
> bearings in a similar fashion to Shimano's Octalink.
>
> The reasoning behind these designs is that the BB shell is
> too small to fit in decent bearings and a decent spindle.
> So, why not just make the BB shells bigger?

It does look like it is on its way out. Good riddance IMO.
According to the info I have seen, I can't think of any
disadvantage with the new system. It is just as light,
stiffer, more durable and best of all from my point of view
is that it doesn't depend on a press fit, so you can take
them apart as often as you want without wearing them out. I
disagree with Carla. The new Race Face cranks aren't any
more expensive than a Turbine with a good bottom bracket,
but the Shimano XT is definitely more expensive than the old
XT. I would say that the main reasons Race Face and Shimano
made do with the current BB design is that neither of them
make frames, and if a different BB shell was needed, it
couldn't be retrofitted to last year's bikes. It sounds all
good to me and I'm going to buy one as soon as I can.
 
"SuperSlinky" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> but the Shimano XT is definitely more expensive than the
> old >XT.

All Shimano products went up in price for 2004. Most of the
pricing is outrageously marked up.

- CA-G

Can-Am Girls Kick Ass!
 
Carla A-G said:

> All Shimano products went up in price for 2004. Most of
> the pricing is outrageously marked up.
>
> - CA-G
>
> Can-Am Girls Kick Ass!

All the more reason to support Race Face instead of Shimano.
As soon as the X-type Deus arrives at the LBS I'm going to
have them install one on the Titus and move my old cranks to
a Special-ed hardtail I'm building up.
 
bomba <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> So, after the repeated problems with Isis, one of the main
> proponents of the system has released an alternative
> system. Race Face has produced the 'X-Type' with external
> bearings in a similar fashion to Shimano's Octalink.

Make that two of the main proponents, Truvative announced an
external bearing road crank/BB set a couple of months ago.

R
 
"SuperSlinky" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> All the more reason to support Race Face instead of
> Shimano. As soon as the X-type Deus arrives at the LBS I'm
> going to have them install one on the Titus and move my
> old cranks to a Special-ed hardtail I'm building up.

I just picked up a new Race Face crankset and Race Face BB
for my new bike.

- CA-G

Can-Am Girls Kick Ass!
 
"bomba" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:p[email protected]...
> On Fri, 14 May 2004 10:44:56 -0400, Carla A-G wrote:
>
> > All Shimano products went up in price for 2004.
>
> Probably due to the weak dollar against the Yen.

Also has a lot to do with all this war ********, it
usually results in mark ups for the pricing of all metals
(steel, titanium, alu, etc.). I suspect this will also
result in an increase in pricing for complete bikes in the
very near future.

> > Most of the pricing is outrageously marked up.
>
> Are we talking mountain bikes in general now, or just
> Shimano?

All their road stuff is the same outrageous pricing.

> At least you don't live in Europe...

Sometimes I wish I did...

- CA-G

Can-Am Girls Kick Ass!
 
"Andy Chequer" <andy@(youdontwantthisbitinit)thisisasparagus.com> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "bomba" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:p[email protected]...
> > So, after the repeated problems with Isis, one of the
> > main proponents of the system has released an
> > alternative system. Race Face has produced the 'X-Type'
> > with external bearings in a similar fashion to Shimano's
> Octalink.
> >
> > The reasoning behind these designs is that the BB shell
> > is too small to fit in decent bearings and a decent
> > spindle. So, why not just make the BB shells bigger?
>
> Industry inertia. Seen any bikes with 1.5" heads recently?
>
> Andy Chequer

Talk to Cannondale. http://www.cannondale.com/bikes/innovat-
ion/sihollowgram.html

/s
 
"supabonbon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Talk to Cannondale.
http://www.cannondale.com/bikes/innovation/sihollowgram.html

Proprietary components and parts cause nothing but
headaches. What happens when something breaks and you need
to replace it? You are SOL if its not an industry wide
standard available item because you either not going to find
it anymore or you will have to wait a very long time to get
one. I'd rather stick to industry standard components and
parts, you have much more availability from a variety of
manufacturers.

- CA-G

Can-Am Girls Kick Ass!
 
On Fri, 14 May 2004 11:46:43 -0400, "Carla A-G"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>"bomba" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:p[email protected]...
>> On Fri, 14 May 2004 10:44:56 -0400, Carla A-G wrote:
>>
>> > All Shimano products went up in price for 2004.
>>
>> Probably due to the weak dollar against the Yen.
>
>Also has a lot to do with all this war ********, it
>usually results in mark ups for the pricing of all metals
>(steel, titanium, alu, etc.). I suspect this will also
>result in an increase in pricing for complete bikes in the
>very near future.

Huh?

Sources for this info?

Metal prices have increased due to the Iraq war?