On 25 Nov 2004 20:07:07 GMT,
[email protected] (R15757) wrote in message
<
[email protected]>:
>>>>Why ride in the traffic? To be where they are looking.
>The fact that you think making yourself
>visible to motorists is your most important
>task in traffic, well, it blows my mind.
I'm sure it does. I find that being seen makes quite a difference to
your chances of being wiped out.
>It
>blows my mind that so many other people
>think the same way. You should know that
>nobody who has a similar amount of experience
>that I have thinks that way. They can't
>afford to.
Really? Are you sure of that? Or are you just quibbling because you
are trying to undermine the whole EC idea as a way of justifying
things you do which are against the teachings of EC?
It seems to me that riding in the traffic lane for the reasons I
stated - to be where they are looking and to be treated properly as a
vehicle with a rightful place on the road - is a sound approach. I
know a lot of cycle messengers don't hold with old-fashioned notions
like traffic laws, keeping off the footway and so on, but nobody
pretends that they are any more typical of the average cyclist than a
taxi driver is typical of the average driver.
>I urge you to take more responsibility for
>yourself, instead of willfully placing it in the
>eyes of strangers.
Ah, so the reason I am placing myself in the traffic lane to be seen
and to be treated as traffic is because I am abrogating all
responsibility for my safety to others. The lights, the reflective
clothing, the flag, the mirror, the vigilance, the scanning for escape
routes - all this is because I am trusting those munificent cagers to
keep me safe. Whereas the cyclist who rides in the gutter assuming
that they will be seen anyway, despite being away from the drivers'
sight lines, are what? That is the default mode for untrained adult
cyclists. Me, I have taken much more responsibility for my own
safety. I take the lane when circumstances demand it, including on
the narrow bridges I negotiate daily, because I know that if I don't
manage the traffic behind, some of them will fail to understand how
much space I need and try to overtake.
This is what it teaches in Cyclecraft, which you denounced.
What, precisely, am I doing wrong, other than doing it for what you
perceive to be the wrong reason?
>>I think you are confusing your experience as a messenger for the
>>experience of ordinary folks. That would account for some of the
>>observed facts, anyway.
>How so? Remember that I have about 75,000
>non-messenger miles in addition to the 160K+
>I have accumulated as a working courier.
>Are you saying that because I have passed a
>certain point, my experience no longer counts?
>At what point did that happen? 10,000 hours
>or so?
The point at which it changes is the point at which you become a
messenger, plying for hire against the clock. Your motivations are
completely different from the average cyclist, and your behaviour will
reflect that. I have a lot of miles, too, but all as a regular
cyclist - touring or commuting.
Are you claiming that taxi drivers are the world's best drivers?
One thing I do know: the average working life of a motorcycle
messenger in London is stated to be two years, after which they either
can't hack it any more or get wiped out.
I have not read more than the abstract of the Harvard study which said
"Urban bicycle messengers [...] suffer a very high rate of
occupational injury", but it is an inherently plausible argument. A
bike messenger was killed in London recently when he stopped, leaning
against the left side of a left-turning heavy truck. Now I am all for
giving people the benefit of the doubt, but knowing the way messengers
ride, it seems most likely that he was using the truck as a prop to
avoid unclipping. I - and just about every other cyclist I know -
would *never* stop alongside a truck like that.
Bike messengers also regularly report being doored. Cyclists I know
*do not ride* in the door zone - it is right against EC.
I am to saying you do these things, but these are things we have all
seen messengers do. Just as taxi drivers are not the model for
everyday driving behaviour, messengers are not held up as the model
for everyday cyclists.
And even then, some of the things you say you do - like riding out in
the traffic lane - come straight from EC. You just don't seem to like
the reason Forester gives for doing it! I really don't get where you
are coming from here.
>>I ride every day in traffic, on a low-down recumbent. You think I
>>don't know what I'm doing? Well screw you.
>No need to get nasty. Why don't you
>critique the substance of my argument as
>I have done to yours.
But you haven't! All you've done is told me I'm doing the right thing
for the wrong reasons! I am more inclined to trust the man who taught
me the right thing in the first place, here.
>That you think
>being visible to motorists is more important
>than anything else is a striking indication that
>you do not in fact know what you're doing.
Do tell: how do you stay alive without being visible?
>Extremely different than yours is the only way
>it is extreme.
Also extremely different form Frank's, and that of a lot of other
people including the writer of at least one standard text on cycling.
And I *still* don't get why you think it is wrong to ride in the
traffic in order to be seen and treated as a vehicle, but right to do
it in order to "create space" - in free flowing traffic, most of the
road *is* space. Space is only an issue when some bozo goes past, and
the way I ride they have to see me and pass me properly, because I am
where they are looking! I think you are arguing about labels, for
reasons which I cannot fathom.
To hear you talk anyone would think I was advocating cowering in the
gutter with a reflective jacket on - nothing could be further from the
truth, and nothing could be less like my riding style. The fact
remains, there is a lot of mileage in making sure that I give drivers
the best possible chance of seeing me.
Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
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