The Bonk/over eating/winter

[Callas]

[email protected] wrote:
> That's way OTT for a 2 hour ride. Sure, eating a bit might help (and if the ride is closer to 3
> hours, or even more, then it's definitely a good idea to eat something) but a few snacks is fine
> rather than the force-feeding regime you suggest. Half an energy bar every 10 minutes would
> certainly dampen my enthusiasm for cycling!

IME, eating regularly while riding makes a significant difference to my performance, for all but the
shortest rides (say 5 miles).

--
Callas

 

[Callas]

[email protected] wrote:
> Callas wrote:
>
> >> I have noticed I seemed plagued by the bonk in the winter months - today I had 2 breakfasts,
> >> did around 40 miles, yet still got that dreaded cold sweat, and really having to concentrate -
> >> something else I have noticed is that I seem to be eating loads ?
>
> > You need to eat *while* you're riding.
>
> I find that I use up the pre-ride reserves at some point between 30 and 35 miles, riding briskly.
> If I trundle I can make 50 before stopping for a sarnie, but prefer to have a bun at elevenses

Inefficient - you should *not* be riding to the point where you carbohydrate reverses are depleted
and only THEN eating; it takes time for food into the stomach to turn into energy, and you need the
right sort of food, too - not bread and other complex carbs, but simple stuff that goes right into
the bloodstream.

> > You *must* eat energy bars, about half a bar at a time, once every 10 minutes or so, during
> > your ride.
>
> Must? For a 40 mile ride at an average of slightly over 20mph, with about 20lb of luggage, I
> find that one bog-standard muesli bar somewhere between 30 and 35 miles is sufficient to avoid
> the bonk.

Avoiding the bonk is not consummate with achieving optimal performance.

You may well avoiding bonking by what you do, but if you ate more, you'd avoid the bonk AND
ride faster.

> The best advice is to listen to your body. If you find that two breakfasts doesn't cut it, eat one
> breakfast and eat more on the ride. But energy bars every ten minutes? Every ten miles, perhaps.

Half a bar; e.g. one mouthful, every ten minutes, keeps a regular supply of simple carbs in your
bloodstream and greatly extends your internal reserves.

> I find I don't need to eat significantly on short rides like this anyway. I very rarely eat on
> the bike, and the only times when I've actually used energy bars have been when trying to
> complete a century in decent time. 80 miles or more at trundling pace can be achieved without
> eating on the fly.

Non-optimal performance due to lack of food during the ride. Eat while you ride and you'll improve
your performance significantly.

--
Callas

 

[Michael Macclan]

Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
> Runners are using energy at a greater rate.

I contend that it depends how fast the cyclist is riding and the gradient of the hill being climbed.
Time trialists and hill climbers probably have power outputs comparable with long distance runners.

--
Michael MacClancy

 

[Tony W]

"Michael MacClancy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
> > The best advice is to listen to your body.
>
> I beg to differ on this point. The body is a very unreliable guide. It tends to warn too late and
> then, often, catastrophically (hence: the
bonk).
> In respect to dehydration, 'any one of us can lose as much as 4 pints of fluids before getting
> thirsty'. It takes up to 20 minutes for the fluid
to
> be absorbed. Food also needs time to get digested so if you are bonking then the lesson is that
> you've left it too late.

Well, the bonk is nature's way of telling you to stop for a bit and eat something. It hit me
yesterday on a very gentle ride -- about 5 miles of warning that it was happening then -wham- a mile
or so from home the legs just went wobbly. Got home for a serious refuel, water and kip. All looked
much better an hour or so later.

There were two main reasons for the problem -- lack of miles recently and an over indulgence in the
wine on Saturday evening.

In very hot conditions dehydration sets in very quickly indeed. One can go from that '****, the
water bottle's empty to feeling very bad indeed within 10 to 15 mins of very gentle cycling.

But, for touring and leisure cycling (as opposed to high output, bum in the air, knees pounding type
cycling) sensible eating and drinking is sufficient. Over eating when cycling always seems to me to
be worse than slightly under eating.

T

 

[W K]

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Michael MacClancy wrote:
>
> > You'd be surprised how many people can run for more than an hour. 2000 ran the Wokingham Half
> > Marathon on Feb. 9th (me included) and probably getting on for half of them will have taken 1:50
> > or longer.
>
> Oh, no dispute - but I regularly ride for six or more hours in a day, and
so
> do many others. A marathon requires a load of training, a day ride of several hours duration
> doesn't.

Its the shock of each footfall that does it. I can run for a full two hours with about 25g of
carbohydrate at around my LT (guessed at 175). But this buggers my muscles and tendons up so I
cannot walk. (Although note: eating and running does cause stomach ache and worse)

I did 130 mins running at a sort of touring speed on saturday, I was sort of OK on sunday.

I've not tried this kind of speed on my bike recently. I will do when I've found the watchy-bit of
my aldi HRM.

 

[Just Zis Guy]

Callas wrote:

>> That's way OTT for a 2 hour ride. Sure, eating a bit might help (and if the ride is closer to 3
>> hours, or even more, then it's definitely a good idea to eat something) but a few snacks is fine
>> rather than the force-feeding regime you suggest. Half an energy bar every 10 minutes would
>> certainly dampen my enthusiasm for cycling!

> IME, eating regularly while riding makes a significant difference to my performance, for all but
> the shortest rides (say 5 miles).

I wouldn't know, but I'd be faintly surprised if eating increased my average speed much above the
current 20mph for a 40 mile journey.

And there is absoutely no way I would even consider eating on the ride if it was only of the order
of 5 miles - that's less than 20 minutes' riding!

--
Guy
===
I wonder if you wouldn't mind piecing out our imperfections with your thoughts; and while you're
about it perhaps you could think when we talk of bicycles, that you see them printing their proud
wheels i' the receiving earth; thanks awfully.

http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/09.shtml#103 http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/09.shtml#104

 

[Just Zis Guy]

Callas wrote:

>> I find that I use up the pre-ride reserves at some point between 30 and 35 miles, riding
>> briskly. If I trundle I can make 50 before stopping for a sarnie, but prefer to have a bun at
>> elevenses

> Inefficient - you should *not* be riding to the point where you carbohydrate reverses are depleted
> and only THEN eating; it takes time for food into the stomach to turn into energy, and you need
> the right sort of food, too - not bread and other complex carbs, but simple stuff that goes right
> into the bloodstream.

I have never, ever suffered the bonk. As I feel the "flat spot" I stop and put some more fuel in.
And inefficient it may be, but an average speed of
20.1mph from St Albans to Reading is perfectly acceptable for a near-40-year-old asthmatic with a
sedentary job

>>> You *must* eat energy bars, about half a bar at a time, once every 10 minutes or so, during
>>> your ride.

>> Must? For a 40 mile ride at an average of slightly over 20mph, with about 20lb of luggage, I
>> find that one bog-standard muesli bar somewhere between 30 and 35 miles is sufficient to avoid
>> the bonk.

> Avoiding the bonk is not consummate with achieving optimal performance. You may well avoiding
> bonking by what you do, but if you ate more, you'd avoid the bonk AND ride faster.

Maybe I would, but I'm sure I wouldn't need to eat at anything like ten minute intervals - and if I
did I would get fat instead of staying thin, which is a Bad Thing.

>> The best advice is to listen to your body. If you find that two breakfasts doesn't cut it, eat
>> one breakfast and eat more on the ride. But energy bars every ten minutes? Every ten miles,
>> perhaps.

> Half a bar; e.g. one mouthful, every ten minutes, keeps a regular supply of simple carbs in your
> bloodstream and greatly extends your internal reserves.

But my internal reserves already get me where I want to go at the speed I want to get there.

--
Guy
===
I wonder if you wouldn't mind piecing out our imperfections with your thoughts; and while you're
about it perhaps you could think when we talk of bicycles, that you see them printing their proud
wheels i' the receiving earth; thanks awfully.

http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/09.shtml#103 http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/09.shtml#104

 

[David Damerell]

Callas <[email protected]> wrote:
>[email protected] wrote:
>>Must? For a 40 mile ride at an average of slightly over 20mph, with about 20lb of luggage, I
>>find that one bog-standard muesli bar somewhere between 30 and 35 miles is sufficient to avoid
>>the bonk.
>Avoiding the bonk is not consummate with achieving optimal performance.

If you read the original post you will see that the remit is not to achieve optimal performance, but
to avoid the bonk.
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> flcl?

 

[Just Zis Guy]

Tony W wrote:

> Well, the bonk is nature's way of telling you to stop for a bit and eat something. It hit me
> yesterday on a very gentle ride -- about 5 miles of warning that it was happening then -wham- a
> mile or so from home the legs just went wobbly. Got home for a serious refuel, water and kip. All
> looked much better an hour or so later.

I think you have the right of it: the point (which I missed in my earlier reply) was that the bonk
doesn't set in with no warning, does it?

> There were two main reasons for the problem -- lack of miles recently and an over indulgence in
> the wine on Saturday evening.

Ah, lack of miles. Terrible. Can't be the wine, though

> In very hot conditions dehydration sets in very quickly indeed. One can go from that '****, the
> water bottle's empty to feeling very bad indeed within 10 to 15 mins of very gentle cycling.

Absolutely, especially if one has unwisely forgotten a hat.

> But, for touring and leisure cycling (as opposed to high output, bum in the air, knees pounding
> type cycling) sensible eating and drinking is sufficient. Over eating when cycling always seems to
> me to be worse than slightly under eating.

Yes, I agree. Plus, if you're going to pig yourself every time the wheels stop turning, you might as
well sit on your bum at home and not take any exercise for all the good it'll do you.

--
Guy
===
I wonder if you wouldn't mind piecing out our imperfections with your thoughts; and while you're
about it perhaps you could think when we talk of bicycles, that you see them printing their proud
wheels i' the receiving earth; thanks awfully.

http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/09.shtml#103 http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/09.shtml#104

 

[Just Zis Guy]

W K wrote:

>> A marathon requires a load of training, a day ride of several hours duration doesn't.

> Its the shock of each footfall that does it.

Partly - but remember also that your legs support your entire weight when running. That only happens
on a bike when you are out of the saddle and hoofing it - which accounts for a very small part of
most rides. I reckon that when cycling you simply do less work per unit time than when running, all
other factors aside.

ICBW, of course.

> I can run for a full two hours with about 25g of carbohydrate at around my LT (guessed at 175).

I can't I can do that on a bike, but not running. My knees give way.

> But this buggers my muscles and tendons up so I cannot walk. (Although note: eating and running
> does cause stomach ache and worse)

Heh! Tell me about it

> I did 130 mins running at a sort of touring speed on saturday, I was sort of OK on sunday.

Sure - a CTC day ride commonly involves 5 or 6 hours of saddle time, and I can still climb on the
bike and ride to work the next day. But I think we're basically in agreement here, unless I've
misunderstood you.

--
Guy
===
I wonder if you wouldn't mind piecing out our imperfections with your thoughts; and while you're
about it perhaps you could think when we talk of bicycles, that you see them printing their proud
wheels i' the receiving earth; thanks awfully.

http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/09.shtml#103 http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/09.shtml#104

 

[Michael Macclan]

W K wrote:
> I can run for a full two hours with about 25g of carbohydrate at around my LT (guessed at 175).
> But this buggers my muscles and tendons up so I cannot walk. (Although note: eating and running
> does cause stomach ache and worse)
>

If you're only taking 25g for the whole run you're probably consuming too little and running
suboptimally. The recommendation for running is 30-60g of carbs per hour, depending on intensity. If
you have stomach problems try a gel. In fact, try all of them until you find one that suits you.
Don't forget to drink water with it. Some sports drinks are also suitable sources of carbohydrate in
readily digestible form. The muscle and tendon problems are more likely to be connected with lack of
training - the tendons perhaps with poor shoes, too?
--
Michael MacClancy

 

[W K]

"Michael MacClancy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> W K wrote:
> > I can run for a full two hours with about 25g of carbohydrate at around my LT (guessed at 175).
> > But this buggers my muscles and tendons up so I cannot walk. (Although note: eating and running
> > does cause stomach ache and worse)
> >
>
> If you're only taking 25g for the whole run you're probably consuming too little and running
> suboptimally. The recommendation for running is 30-60g of carbs per hour, depending on intensity.
> If you have stomach problems
try
> a gel.

I do eat gel, and I don't get anywhere near a "bonk". I do have a reasonable dose of energy drink at
the start.

> In fact, try all of them until you find one that suits you. Don't forget to drink water with it.
> Some sports drinks are also suitable
sources
> of carbohydrate in readily digestible form. The muscle and tendon
problems
> are more likely to be connected with lack of training - the tendons
perhaps
> with poor shoes, too?

I had tendon problems on the bike too. They need time to toughen up, and indeed they have since
last year.

 

[W K]

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> W K wrote:
>
> >> A marathon requires a load of training, a day ride of several hours duration doesn't.
>
> > Its the shock of each footfall that does it.
>
> Partly - but remember also that your legs support your entire weight when running. That only
> happens on a bike when you are out of the saddle and hoofing it

Far more than your entire weight when you take the shock into account.

> - which accounts for a very small part of most rides.

Zero for you or I.

> I reckon that when cycling you simply do less work per unit time than when running, all other
> factors aside.

I'd judge it on the heart rate, and certainly in the past I was very capable of getting it just as
high on the bike, but one thing I do notice is that on a bike you do take short breaks when you
trundle or ease off.

 

[Michael Macclan]

David Damerell wrote:
> If you read the original post you will see that the remit is not to achieve optimal performance,
> but to avoid the bonk.

Well, the OP seems to have lost interest in the discussion and the thread has moved into a new
direction. Since when have you been the Custodian of the Thread's Relevancy?

Small, regular amounts of food are easier to digest than large helpings. A regular intake of energy
will both prevent the bonk and improve performance. What's the matter with that? Or do you just like
the idea of riding more slowly than you have to? (I have to admit that if you're not racing then you
probably can't be bothered. But the principle is correct.)
--
Michael MacClancy

 

[Wafflycathcsdir]

>The stuff I'm eating right now is particularly nice -- a mixture of wholemeal, granary and barley
>flour (all organic, natch) with a free range egg, separated and beaten, and just a touch of thick
>organic honey. Yum yum, piggy's bum. I'm a bread nutter, but it has to be the right bread.

I think I've fallen in love ;-P

Cheers, helen s (also a real bread freak)

~~~~~~~~~~
Flush out that intestinal parasite and/or the waste product before sending a reply!

Any speeliong mistake$ aR the resiult of my cats sitting on the keyboaRRRDdd
~~~~~~~~~~

 

[Dave]

"Neil D" <n**@NOmail.com> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> "Peter Rollason" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > I have noticed I seemed plagued by the bonk in the winter months - today
I
> > had 2 breakfasts, did around 40 miles, yet still got that dreaded cold sweat, and really having
> > to concentrate - something else I have noticed
is
> > that I seem to be eating loads ?
> >
> > Any thoughts
> >
> > No jokes
> >
> > Pete.
> >
> Only that I weaken/bonk around 25+m when I start riding again after my 2 month winter lay-off. In
> my case, I feel its because of the lack of aerobic fitness, which means
I
> burn far more "sugars" than when fit/trained. Normally, during summer/autumn, I can do 50~60m at
> the top end of the
150's
> bpm, none stop (>3hrs) without grub. Remember at 3c you have a massive wind-chill factor as well.
>
> You may want de-worming?
>
>
I've heard this is a great way to lose weight and stay thin, whilst still eating like a teenager
(non-anorexic!!). Anyone know if there's any adverse side effects and if not, where can I get hold
of some worms (intestinal parasites, not garden variety) Cheers, Dave. ;-)

 

[The Big Baguett]

In article <[email protected]>, wafflycathcsdirtycatlitter
<[email protected]> writes
>>The stuff I'm eating right now is particularly nice -- a mixture of wholemeal, granary and barley
>>flour (all organic, natch) with a free range egg, separated and beaten, and just a touch of thick
>>organic honey. Yum yum, piggy's bum. I'm a bread nutter, but it has to be the right bread.
>
>I think I've fallen in love ;-P
>
>Cheers, helen s (also a real bread freak)
>
A sourdough rye is a better aphrodisiac than oysters
--
The Big Baguette

 

[Tony W]

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Ah, lack of miles. Terrible. Can't be the wine, though

I suspect the third bottle was a bit 'off'

> Yes, I agree. Plus, if you're going to pig yourself every time the wheels stop turning, you might
> as well sit on your bum at home and not take any exercise for all the good it'll do you.

Not true. Its better to be fat but fit than just fat & flabby. Trust me, I'm an expert

T

 

[David Damerell]

Michael MacClancy <[email protected]> wrote:
>David Damerell wrote:
>>If you read the original post you will see that the remit is not to achieve optimal performance,
>>but to avoid the bonk.
>Well, the OP seems to have lost interest in the discussion and the thread has moved into a new
>direction. Since when have you been the Custodian of the Thread's Relevancy?

I'm not; but this "bite every ten minutes" nonsense was launched into the thread immediately.

>Small, regular amounts of food are easier to digest than large helpings. A regular intake of energy
>will both prevent the bonk and improve performance. What's the matter with that? Or do you just
>like the idea of riding more slowly than you have to?

Most of my riding is commuting. If I ate half an energy bar every ten minutes, I would eat four
energy bars in the course of a day's commute. Powerbars appear to sell for over a quid each. In
order to earn four pounds after tax I would have to work for about 20 minutes; so for this to
actually improve matters on an average workday I would have to reduce my 40-minute commute to 30
minutes each way. I don't think energy bars alone will increase an average speed of 17mph to 23mph,
somehow - I think I'd be lucky to push it to 17.5mph with fancy eating habits.]

[Clearly this analysis is much less in favour of energy bars if you flip burgers at minimum wage -
conversely if you are very well paid it may be worth purchasing energy bars to shave a few minutes
off the commute.]
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> flcl?

 

[Michael Macclan]

I have the solution!

Someone should design a bike with a hanger for an intravenous drip on it. That way we can drip the
glucose directly into the blood system and it will reach the muscles that much faster. Attach the
pump to a power meter on the bike and get a tailored dose every 30 seconds or so. No stomach
problems, no forgetting to eat every 10 minutes and glucose solution must be cheap if you make it
up at home!

Have to find a way to secure the canula into the vein/artery though. Bonking through sudden blood
loss wouldn't be good.
--
Michael MacClancy