The cause for Floyd's positive test...?

[fscyclist]

Well, I held off posting until today when the results of Floyd's test was confirmed as positive for testosterone. However, I'm still puzzled by two things:
1. Why would he only test + on one day for testosterone? Doesn't seem risk:benefit is worth it for one day of use. He certainly may have been using throughout, but that doesn't explain why he only tested + on just one day.
2. He's a pro and if he was careful he shouldn't test positive. In order to test positive either someone was careless or something went awry.

Anyway, here are my theories as to why Floyd has a confirmed + result (note many of them may be indirectly explained by the ingestion of 6 alcoholic drinks):

1. He injected the wrong stuff. I wonder if these guys empty vials of legal substances such as "vitamins" and then replace it with the banned substances to avoid being caught (or just relabel vials). So his "Vitamin B" vial that he thought contained EPO or some other substance was actually mistakenly filled with test. Or it could be he or his souigneur didn't check the label carefully.

2. He gave himself the wrong dose. Either he drew up the wrong dose or he reconstituted the stuff from powder form with the wrong amount of saline.

3. He passed out before giving himself the proper epitest dose.

4. It's not his urine. I remember reading in Voet's book about a case where a rider tested positive for a substance he knew he didn't take. Well, that's because he was doping and was submitting his mechanic's urine as his own. Problem was his mechanic was doping.

Just wanted to throw a few theories out there. Interested in what people think and if you have any other ideas.

 

[azdroptop]

Not sure why his later samples were fine? It's not like synthetic testosterone is metabolized that quickly.

 

[Bro Deal]

Not sure why his later samples were fine? It's not like synthetic testosterone is metabolized that quickly.

According to cycling news testosterone has a half life of about an hour.

"Blood and urine levels increase after taking testosterone. But because the half-life of testosterone is very short, about one hour, blood and urine levels return to normal very quickly. Thus, measuring testosterone levels in urine is not an effective means of detecting steroid abuse."

I would think that this is the reason for testosterone patches. They deliver a slow steady dosage over many hours.

I think what Landis probably did is inject himself with a massive dose of testosterone in order to aid recovery from stage 16. By the time the test for stage 17 came around, nearly all the testosterone had cleared his system, making his testosterone levels near normal. The dose of testosterone suppressed his epitestosterone levels, spiking his test:epitest ratio.

The results of the IRMS test are harder to explain.

 

[azdroptop]

According to cycling news testosterone has a half life of about an hour.

"Blood and urine levels increase after taking testosterone. But because the half-life of testosterone is very short, about one hour, blood and urine levels return to normal very quickly. Thus, measuring testosterone levels in urine is not an effective means of detecting steroid abuse."

I would think that this is the reason for testosterone patches. They deliver a slow steady dosage over many hours.

I think what Landis probably did is inject himself with a massive dose of testosterone in order to aid recovery from stage 16. By the time the test for stage 17 came around, nearly all the testosterone had cleared his system, making his testosterone levels near normal. The dose of testosterone suppressed his epitestosterone levels, spiking his test:epitest ratio.

The results of the IRMS test are harder to explain.

Interesting. Thanks for posting that info.

 

[Felt_Rider]

To be more specific testosterone suspension is the one that has a short half life of about a day, but labs (like Balco Labs) can create designer drugs that are similar to the pharmaceutical drugs with less esters and probably creating a shorter half life than these versions.

I suppose there is not an instruction book that comes with these type telling the athlete how to specifically use them or how to keep a rational mind if one experiences a bad stage.



Link 1

Link 2

 

[fscyclist]

I think what Landis probably did is inject himself with a massive dose of testosterone in order to aid recovery from stage 16. By the time the test for stage 17 came around, nearly all the testosterone had cleared his system, making his testosterone levels near normal. The dose of testosterone suppressed his epitestosterone levels, spiking his test:epitest ratio.

Understand your theory, but my understanding is that is why they must inject/take epitest; to normalize the ratio. Whether he takes massive injections or slow dose patches, he will suppress his own production of test and epitest. I would think they would have this stuff down and know how much epitest to give for a certain test dose. Again, I'm a little surprised a pro at this level is getting caught unless someone was very careless (of course Phonak's record speaks to this).

 

[fscyclist]

Not sure why his later samples were fine? It's not like synthetic testosterone is metabolized that quickly.

I went to the website of one of the testosterone patches and they state that their elimination half life is 70 minutes. We usually state something is completely cleared after 5-6 half lives so your talking only 6 hours for all the drug to be eliminated. I'm sure other formulations of testosterone vary significantly.

The key to beating the test, however, is to keep your test:epitest less than 4:1. They won't screen for exogenous sources (so I've read) unless that ratio is abnormal. As long as your ratio is okay, your actual testosterone levels could be off the charts and I don't think it would raise any red flags. I could be wrong about that as they may test absolute levels of testosterone, but from what I've read that doesn't seem to be the case.

 

[Serafino]

I went to the website of one of the testosterone patches and they state that their elimination half life is 70 minutes. We usually state something is completely cleared after 5-6 half lives so your talking only 6 hours for all the drug to be eliminated. I'm sure other formulations of testosterone vary significantly.

The key to beating the test, however, is to keep your test:epitest less than 4:1. They won't screen for exogenous sources (so I've read) unless that ratio is abnormal. As long as your ratio is okay, your actual testosterone levels could be off the charts and I don't think it would raise any red flags. I could be wrong about that as they may test absolute levels of testosterone, but from what I've read that doesn't seem to be the case.

But wasn't it the case that the T levels were normal and the E levels low? IIRC, the T levels were not elevated (I've seen nothing from the UCI to say they were) but the ratio was skewed. Supposedly, the E levels were low, hence the high T:E ratio.

Sloppy journalism obscures the issues as do the bashers. It would be nice to get to the bottom of the situation without the hybole and self serving tyrants like Tricky **** Pound clouding the issue.

 

[fscyclist]

But wasn't it the case that the T levels were normal and the E levels low? IIRC, the T levels were not elevated (I've seen nothing from the UCI to say they were) but the ratio was skewed. Supposedly, the E levels were low, hence the high T:E ratio.

If you dope with testosterone, you will have a very low epitest level since your body will suppress its production. So when they say he has a normal test level but a low epitest level that's not surprising for a doper; in fact it would be the expected result if you forgot to give yourself epitest (or too little a dose). See #3 in the original post.

 

[Serafino]

If you dope with testosterone, you will have a very low epitest level since your body will suppress its production. So when they say he has a normal test level but a low epitest level that's not surprising for a doper; in fact it would be the expected result if you forgot to give yourself epitest (or too little a dose). See #3 in the original post.

What are you basing this statement on? You're not citing BRO as an "expert" are you?

"It has been shown that exogenous administration of testosterone does not affect levels of epitestosterone in the body. As a result, tests to determine the ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone in urine are used to find athletes who are doping."

WIKI on EPI

"It (EPI) apparently parallels the formation of testosterone (T), but on the other hand its concentration is not influenced by exogenous administration of testosterone. This fact creates the basis of the present doping control of testosterone abuse"

Institute of Endocrinology Abstract on Epistestosterone

"Testosterone is a naturally occurring hormone responsible for the development of male reproductive organs and secondary sexual characteristics.
Epitestosterone is a chemically similar natural steroid that is produced independently of testosterone.
The normal testosterone (T) to epitestosterone (E) ratio in urine varies from individual to individual and on average is one to one.
This ratio does not vary significantly within an individual unless a testosterone or related preparation is taken or some pathological condition exists. In such cases, the testosterone level can increase. The epitestosterone level will remain unaffected because it is made through a different bio-synthetic pathway."

Austrilian Gov't on T:E

 

[fscyclist]

What are you basing this statement on? You're not citing BRO as an "expert" are you?

"It has been shown that exogenous administration of testosterone does not affect levels of epitestosterone in the body. As a result, tests to determine the ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone in urine are used to find athletes who are doping."

Thanks for the correction. I knew I'd learn something by posting on this board. I looked it up elsewhere and you are indeed correct. However, I read in an article this week that epitest was a metabolite and would thus be affected. I guess I shouldn't trust the press.

Anyway, getting back to the point of the ratio. A ratio is just that. One substance is "high" and the other "low" so the levels are relative to each other. So to say he has a "low" epitest level not a "high" test doesn't mean anything. His test level may not have been above "normal" ranges, but if it was 11 times the epitest level (as reported elsewhere) then it was higher than it should be. The key is the ratio should be balanced, and I'm wondering why it wasn't. Any ideas?

 

[Bro Deal]

"It has been shown that exogenous administration of testosterone does not affect levels of epitestosterone in the body. As a result, tests to determine the ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone in urine are used to find athletes who are doping."

So this cyclingnews story is wrong, no?

"Because testosterone cannot be converted to epitestosterone, an elevated ratio suggests doping; moreover, exogenous testosterone lowers the body's production of epitestosterone, further increasing the T/E ratio. In 1982, the IOC Medical Commission set a T/E ratio of 6/1 as the cut-off value for a positive test; WADA recently lowered the threshold to 4/1. The prevalence of urinary T/E ratio greater than 6/1 in healthy, non-steroid users is less than 0.8 percent. However, there are documented cases of non-doping athletes with T/E ratios greater than 6/1; as a result, additional testing is required to determine the etiology of the elevated ratio."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2006/testosterone_testing

So what caused Landis' epitestosterone level to plummet? Too bad there is so much **** reporting from true believers. The issue has been muddied.

 

[fscyclist]

What are you basing this statement on? You're not citing BRO as an "expert" are you?

"It has been shown that exogenous administration of testosterone does not affect levels of epitestosterone in the body. As a result, tests to determine the ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone in urine are used to find athletes who are doping."

Maybe I spoke too soon. Testosterone (T) and Epitestosterone (E) are formed by separate pathways as you pointed out, but apparently administration of T drives the E level lower. I'm not sure of the mechanism, but here's the article abstract.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=8439522&dopt=Abstract

Note the statment "The lowest dosage T administration did not affect the androgen profile, while higher dosages generally increased urinary excretions of T metabolites (TG, T sulfate, glucuronides of androsterone, etiocholanolone, 5 alpha- and 5 beta-androstane-3 alpha,17 beta-diol) and decreased excretions of conjugates of epitestosterone (ET) and its precursor androgen 5-androstene-3 beta,17 alpha-diol."

I also found this article about trying to find a good test to determine if people are administering E exogenously.
http://www.clinchem.org/cgi/content/full/48/4/629

Note the quote "When testosterone is administered, the excretion rate of urinary testosterone increases, the excretion rate of epitestosterone declines (6), and the T/E ratio increases." This quote cites the article I mentioned in the lines above.

 

[Bro Deal]

Note the quote "When testosterone is administered, the excretion rate of urinary testosterone increases, the excretion rate of epitestosterone declines (6), and the T/E ratio increases."

That is interesting that the TE ratio is depended on changed in excretion rates. What happens when an athlete goes through ten to twelve liters of fluid in six hours?

 

[azdroptop]

So this cyclingnews story is wrong, no?

"Because testosterone cannot be converted to epitestosterone, an elevated ratio suggests doping; moreover, exogenous testosterone lowers the body's production of epitestosterone, further increasing the T/E ratio. In 1982, the IOC Medical Commission set a T/E ratio of 6/1 as the cut-off value for a positive test; WADA recently lowered the threshold to 4/1. The prevalence of urinary T/E ratio greater than 6/1 in healthy, non-steroid users is less than 0.8 percent. However, there are documented cases of non-doping athletes with T/E ratios greater than 6/1; as a result, additional testing is required to determine the etiology of the elevated ratio."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2006/testosterone_testing

So what caused Landis' epitestosterone level to plummet? Too bad there is so much **** reporting from true believers. The issue has been muddied.

I can't imagine one dose the night before decreasing production so quickly?

 

[karlotta]

Dr. Gary Wadler (WADA, USADA) wasn't so sure:

"Taking doses of synthetic testosterone would not raise the body's production of the natural hormone, and if anything it might suppress that production, Wadler said. It also might suppress production of epitestosterone."

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/sp20060803a2.html

What are you basing this statement on? You're not citing BRO as an "expert" are you?

"It has been shown that exogenous administration of testosterone does not affect levels of epitestosterone in the body. As a result, tests to determine the ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone in urine are used to find athletes who are doping."

WIKI on EPI

"It (EPI) apparently parallels the formation of testosterone (T), but on the other hand its concentration is not influenced by exogenous administration of testosterone. This fact creates the basis of the present doping control of testosterone abuse"

Institute of Endocrinology Abstract on Epistestosterone

"Testosterone is a naturally occurring hormone responsible for the development of male reproductive organs and secondary sexual characteristics.
Epitestosterone is a chemically similar natural steroid that is produced independently of testosterone.
The normal testosterone (T) to epitestosterone (E) ratio in urine varies from individual to individual and on average is one to one.
This ratio does not vary significantly within an individual unless a testosterone or related preparation is taken or some pathological condition exists. In such cases, the testosterone level can increase. The epitestosterone level will remain unaffected because it is made through a different bio-synthetic pathway."

Austrilian Gov't on T:E