The cyclist's spokesman



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Hi Simon

Did you reply to the question:

CAN YOU SHED LIGHT ON CYCLISTS' HABITS? Will Mr Mason and Mr Minns reply to the question, that has
been asked by a number of your correspondents. The question is: Why do so many cyclists ride
during... <http://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=61023&command=displayContent&sourc-
eNode=60575&contentPK=5429197>

On going to <http://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/index.jsp>, selecting "Local News" and searching for
"cyclist", the first thing I came across was:

GIRL SHOCKED AFTER ROBBERY West Hull: A 13-year-old girl was left shaken and scared when she was
robbed by a hooded cyclist. The girl was walking along a snicket when a cyclist approached from...
<http://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=61023&command=displayContent&sourceNode=6057-
5&contentPK=5419543>

Not just any old cyclist, you'll note, but a hooded cyclist. Not only are we now branded incompetent
road - or pavement - users. Now we're put into the same category as gun-toting gangsters. At least
that was my initial impression.

Regards James

PS What's a snicket?

--
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/c.butty/Dscf0632.jpg
 
James Hodson <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> Hi Simon
>
> Did you reply to the question:

Pay attention at the back there! What do you think this whole thread was about?

> CAN YOU SHED LIGHT ON CYCLISTS' HABITS? Will Mr Mason and Mr Minns reply to the question, that has
> been asked by a number of your correspondents. The question is: Why do so many cyclists ride
> during... <http://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=61023&command=displayContent&sou-
> rceNode=60575&contentPK=5429197>
>
> On going to <http://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/index.jsp>, selecting "Local News" and searching for
> "cyclist", the first thing I came across was:
>
> GIRL SHOCKED AFTER ROBBERY West Hull: A 13-year-old girl was left shaken and scared when she was
> robbed by a hooded cyclist. The girl was walking along a snicket when a cyclist approached from...
> <http://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=61023&command=displayContent&sourceNode=60-
> 575&contentPK=5419543>
>
> Not just any old cyclist, you'll note, but a hooded cyclist. Not only are we now branded
> incompetent road - or pavement - users. Now we're put into the same category as gun-toting
> gangsters. At least that was my initial impression.
>
> Regards James
>
> PS What's a snicket?

It's an alleyway or passageway between two houses or buildings that peds can use as a shortcut
between roads. No cycling is allowed. Simon
 
"Frank°" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> >
> Apart from it is perfectly legal for peds to cross against the red man.

Yes, I know and sometimes do so.

But Simon was asked to explain why someone else, who because they have cycle riding in common with
him, acts in a certain manner on a bicycle, basically he replied because they are human and listed a
few other human traits. That's the point of his reply, and doesn't warrant a childish discussion on
the legality of crossing the Queens Highway.

Pete
 
On Mon, 5 May 2003 21:30:38 +0100 someone who may be Peter Grange
<peter@REMOVE_THISplgrange.demon.co.uk> wrote this:-

>But how annoying are those who press the request button, then cross against the red man, and later
>cause other road users, who _would_ be breaking the law if they crossed the red light, to wait
>around for no good reason. Ho Hum.

You should be annoyed with the designers of the crossing, not the pedestrians.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E I will always explain revoked
keys, unless the UK government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.
 
In news:[email protected], David Hansen
<[email protected]> typed:
>
> You should be annoyed with the designers of the crossing, not the pedestrians.

all the crossings in Reading have devices which point towards the ped crossing area, so if a ped
activates a crossing demand (by pressing the button) but has already crossed by the time the lights
would change the crossing demand is cancelled and the traffic is not stopped. I thought this would
be the general case elsewhere; however it may only be that Reading has been extensively redeveloped
in the last 10 years and so this new equipment is commonplace.

They are everywhere by the Oracle shopping centre. A more paranoid friend thought that the crossings
were full of cameras so the old bill could watch everybody. (Untrue; the cameras are all up on the
walls where they have a better view).

Perhaps some parts of the UK still have street crossings with lights operated by motorised cams
switching microswitches at mains voltage. ( Didn't they once have *words* on the aspects and CROSS /
DON'T CROSS) instead of the red/green man?

Alex
 
On Tue, 06 May 2003 20:09:22 +0100, David Hansen scrawled: )>But how annoying are those who press
the request button, then cross )>against the red man ) ) You should be annoyed with the designers of
the crossing, not the ) pedestrians.

Well. A bit of column A, and a bit of column B. Pedestrians don't /have/ to show good road
etiquette, but as a ped I always try and avoid pressing the crossing button if there's just a
cyclist coming, or just one car. I would like to think other people would be that considerate too.

It's mild ignorance of one's environment to not do it; although such behaviour isn't in any way
morally reprehensible or anything so severe, it can be difficult not to get annoyed at the daze in
which many people wander around.

J-P
--
Everybody lies to polls, and everybody starts to tease, so tell your boy you'll never believe, and
tell your boy you don't believe, now tell your cousin, walking walking walking walking walking
walking, everybody lies to polls, and everybody starts to tell, everyone wants to be there
 
On Thu, 8 May 2003 08:15:10 +0000 (UTC), j-p.s <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Tue, 06 May 2003 20:09:22 +0100, David Hansen scrawled: )>But how annoying are those who press
> the request button, then cross )>against the red man ) ) You should be annoyed with the designers
> of the crossing, not the ) pedestrians.
>
> Well. A bit of column A, and a bit of column B. Pedestrians don't /have/ to show good road
> etiquette, but as a ped I always try and avoid pressing the crossing button if there's just a
> cyclist coming, or just one car. I would like to think other people would be that considerate too.
>
> It's mild ignorance of one's environment to not do it; although such behaviour isn't in any way
> morally reprehensible or anything so severe, it can be difficult not to get annoyed at the daze in
> which many people wander around.
>
I must admit that unless it is 100% certain that I will be able to cross before the lights change
then I always push the button. The lights take so long to change and the car drivers are so skillful
at making the gaps just too small to cross.

The real problem is that most crossings won't change until there is a gap in the traffic (or you
have been waiting for >120 seconds) so it is almost guaranteed that the majority of people will have
crossed before the lights change but, as a pedestrian, you can't know whether the gap will occur
before or after the 120 seconds, 240 seconds or whatever that particular crossing has been set to.

Regards,

Tim.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light.

http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/
 
On Thu, 8 May 2003 08:28:10, Tim Woodall <[email protected]> wrote:

> I must admit that unless it is 100% certain that I will be able to cross before the lights change
> then I always push the button.

So do I.

Mind you, the pelican just up teh road from me seems to invariably adopt the policy of waiting 'till
there's no traffic coming and _then_ changing teh lights. I wonder what good this does - I can wait
till theres no traffic coming and then cross without assistance from illuminated cartoon men.

Personally, I think town centre pelicans should default to green man / red for cars and only change
to green for traffic only when a motorist has pulled up to the line and waited 120 seconds. Combined
traffic calming and pedestrian improvement, but I've never come across such a scheme - why not?

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|
 
Ian Smith wrote:

> Personally, I think town centre pelicans should default to green man / red for cars and only
> change to green for traffic only when a motorist has pulled up to the line and waited 120 seconds.
> Combined traffic calming and pedestrian improvement, but I've never come across such a scheme -
> why not?
>
> regards, Ian SMith

Because it would also hold up *cyclists*? Either that or the cyclists would ignore the lights which,
contrary to the opinions espoused by the "Daily Mail" and similar menaces to society, is *not*
always the case at present.

Dave Larrington - http://legslarry.crosswinds.net/
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
===========================================================
 
Ian Smith wrote:
> Personally, I think town centre pelicans should default to green man / red for cars and only
> change to green for traffic only when a motorist has pulled up to the line and waited 120 seconds.

I think waiting for 120 seconds (in a car or on a bike) when there were clearly no peds crossing
would be a little frustrating. Personally, I'd prefer that the lights change to amber immediately
the button is pressed, unless it's been green for less than 30-60 seconds.

When the Victoria Road crossing was installed along the Bath-Bristol cyclepath a couple of years
ago, it was set up so that by default the lights were red for both road users and cyclepath users.
In the road direction, the lights would automatically change to green when traffic approached (and
it worked fine for bikes, I tested it several times going in both directions the day the lights were
turned on). In the cyclepath direction, it was necessary to press a button to get a green light.

The problem with this was that it caused a lot of confusion as to who was going when. It was very
common that I'd be standing at the crossing, seeing no point in pressing the button because there
was only one car coming which could get a green light and be out of my way by the time I'd pressed
it. The motorist, OTOH, would expect me to go because he had a red light, and would often wait for
me to go even after his light had turned green.

It was a lot easier to cross that road before the crossing was installed. Fortunately it's now on a
more conventional setting, remaining green for road users until a cyclepath user presses the button.
I very seldom press the button - no point stopping the traffic on the road when I can usually cross
immediately without doing so.

--
Danny Colyer (remove safety to reply) ( http://www.juggler.net/danny ) Recumbent cycle page:
http://www.speedy5.freeserve.co.uk/recumbents/ "He who dares not offend cannot be honest." -
Thomas Paine
 
In article <[email protected]>, one of infinite monkeys
at the keyboard of Ian Smith <[email protected]> wrote:

> Mind you, the pelican just up teh road from me seems to invariably adopt the policy of waiting
> 'till there's no traffic coming and _then_ changing teh lights. I wonder what good this does - I
> can wait till theres no traffic coming and then cross without assistance from illuminated
> cartoon men.

I've seen some of those. I particularly remember one just between where my parents used to live in
Brighton and the beach.

Well-designed lights are the opposite. As a pedestrian in Sheffield some years ago I never had to
wait more than a few seconds after pressing the button, yet the overall flow of traffic (of all
sizes) never seemed to suffer in consequence, even when I was that traffic.

--
Axis of Evil: Whose economy needs ever more wars? Arms Exports $bn: USA 14.2, UK 5.1, vs France 1.5,
Germany 0.8 (The Economist, July 2002)
 
[email protected] wrote: ( Well-designed lights are the opposite. As a pedestrian in Sheffield )
some years ago I never had to wait more than a few seconds after ( pressing the button, yet the
overall flow of traffic (of all sizes) ) never seemed to suffer in consequence, even when I was
that traffic.

There's one of those on the A525 in the middle of Coedpoeth (between the laundrette and the cafe...
which are of course run by the same person). I'm almost invariably a pedestrian there, and reckon
the crossing is a positive liability because the traffic doesn't have time to stop before the lights
go red; you have to allow at least one car through on red because you know you wouldn't have been
able to stop in the circumstances. It doesn't help that by the time that car has gone through it's
starting to turn back again.

When I were a lad (about a hundred years, as it happens, after it were all trees round there -- so
much for the industrial revolution) it was a Belisha beacon controlled crossing and it worked much
better. I get nostalgic for Belisha beacons: there's one in central Oxford but it doesn't work
because hardly any of the traffic knows when it is meant to stop.

Nostalgia isn't what it used to be. There is now a speed camera in Coedpoeth, on the uphill side of
the road on one of the steeper bits of the straight hill where it goes up three hundred metres in
about three kilometres. I don't understand it: everybody I knew who has been killed on that hill was
going down.
 
On Thu, 8 May 2003 20:00:53 +0100, Danny Colyer <[email protected]> wrote: <snip stuff about
cyclepath crossing>
>
> button. I very seldom press the button - no point stopping the traffic on the road when I can
> usually cross immediately without doing so.
>

If the crossing shows a red bicycle rather than a red man then you MUST stop and wait for the
green man.

(Well you don't have to but that's what the law says ;-)

Regards,

Tim.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light.

http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/
 
"Mr R@t \(2.3 zulu-alpha\) [comms room 2]" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...

> Perhaps some parts of the UK still have street crossings with lights operated by motorised cams
> switching microswitches at mains voltage. ( Didn't they once have *words* on the aspects and CROSS
> / DON'T CROSS) instead of the red/green man?

Yes they did have words on them. My memory may be faulty but I seem to remember the light saying
"CROSS NOW" rather than just "CROSS". In the 1960's there was an experiment between Wood Green and
Turnpike Lane with a series of lights showing an animated stick man alternately walking or standing
still. Again I may be wrong but I think special legislation was enacted just for this area making it
an offence to cross against the lights or not at them. The lights were there for years.

--
Dave...
 
Tim Woodall <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...

> I must admit that unless it is 100% certain that I will be able to cross before the lights change
> then I always push the button.

I must confess that when I was child it was 100% certain I would push the button whether I wanted to
cross or not. :)

--
Dave...
 
Tim Woodall wrote:
> If the crossing shows a red bicycle rather than a red man then you MUST stop and wait for the
> green man.

You know how you forget little details when you see the same thing every day? I'd have to check, but
I think it's a toucan crossing.

It certainly has red and green men. I think it has red and green bikes as well. HC rule 65 applies,
rule 66 doesn't. So I don't think I'm any under legal obligation to stop and wait, but I shall have
to check exactly what sort of crossing it is and then refer to the relevant legislation.

--
Danny Colyer (remove safety to reply) ( http://www.juggler.net/danny ) Recumbent cycle page:
http://www.speedy5.freeserve.co.uk/recumbents/ "He who dares not offend cannot be honest." -
Thomas Paine
 
In article <[email protected]>, Peter Grange wrote:
>But how annoying are those who press the request button, then cross against the red man, and later
>cause other road users, who _would_ be breaking the law if they crossed the red light, to wait
>around for no good reason.

Pressing the request button when the road is already clear and crossing without waiting at all would
be silly, but I've never seen that done. Pressing the button when there is traffic and then crossing
when a gap appears long before the lights change is common, makes obvious sense, and results in less
overall waiting (the other road users have to wait for the lights in both cases).

Which are you complaining about?
 
In article <[email protected]>, Ian Smith wrote:
>On Thu, 8 May 2003 08:28:10, Tim Woodall <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I must admit that unless it is 100% certain that I will be able to cross before the lights
>> change then I always push the button.
>
>
>So do I.
>
>Mind you, the pelican just up teh road from me seems to invariably adopt the policy of waiting
>'till there's no traffic coming and _then_ changing teh lights. I wonder what good this does - I
>can wait till theres no traffic coming and then cross without assistance from illuminated
>cartoon men.
>
>Personally, I think town centre pelicans should default to green man / red for cars and only
>change to green for traffic only when a motorist has pulled up to the line and waited 120
>seconds. Combined traffic calming and pedestrian improvement, but I've never come across such a
>scheme - why not?
>
>regards, Ian SMith
>--
> |\ /| no .sig
> |o o|
> |/ \|
 
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