The cyclists training bible. Joe friel.



daveryanwyoming said:
Either way, your schedules use terms like Low Intensity, High Intensity. Those are pretty darn vague. High Intensity could be anything from a one hour time trial at your highest sustainable pace (another definition for Functional Threshold Power(FTP) or L4) to 4 minute hard as you can do them interval repeats (VO2 max or L5 work) all the way to 15 second top speed sprints and standing starts (NeuroMuscular Power work or L7). Anyway whether you subscribe to Friel or Hunter/Coggan and the power folks it helps to define your intensities in a measurable, repeatable way which both helps you to perform them and helps when discussing them.

FWIW I think Friel provides a good solid framework for traditional training and really helps in terms of providing a methodology for yearly planning. Having said that my own cycling fitness has improved dramatically through power training and in particular early season SST work instead of extended low intensity base miles. So I use Friel loosely for structuring a yearly plan, I use his 3-on, 1-off mesocycle planning, use his taper methodology, use his method of defining A, B, and C races and training and or tapering accordingly but I don't subscribe to his weight program nor his winter base work literally. If I recall correctly he also has disclaimers about using his programs without a year or more of training experience. I'm working from memory here but could swear I read a warning about using his plan as a beginner.

Anyway set up that coaching if it's in the budget. Just don't be surprised if you get feedback from this forum and elsewhere that doesn't support the Long Slow Distance (LSD) approach to winter training. It's one method with a long history, but not the only approach.

Good luck,
-Dave
Well high intensity might be muscualr endurance one month. The next it would be VO2max depending on your yearly plan and what weaknesses you want to work on or what event your training for.

I have to be honest, I haven't really got a f***in clue what to do now. 2hrs is along time on a turbo trainer (last night) and some weeks I may have to do a 3hr session on it. Im sure its kind of obvious to you why my motivation has dwindled ten fold since starting this thread. There seems to be so much conflicting advice out there. Ive read somewhere that 60-70% is basic endurance and aerobic capacity. Its also energy efficient and recovery zone. This is what I have been doing all week. (medium duration, low intensity). Aussie says that I should be doing it at about 70-75%. My notes here say this develops cardiovascular system. (these notes are not from joe friels book btw). I would have thought that these long distance endurance rides would be at 60-70%. I don't know now and I don't feel like doing anything on the bike until I do know. Ill just have to get along to the coach.

Would things just be more straightforward for me if I splashed out on a used Powertap?
 
credit_agro said:
Would things just be more straightforward for me if I splashed out on a used Powertap?
Yes, at least on this forum most people use terminology of A Coggan. Besides the power meter, the book "Training and Racing with Power meter" is recommended.
 
wiredued said:
If you are not ready to spend big on a power meter just get the Kurt Kinetic Road machine with the speed to power computer it is only $324. http://www.1upusa.com/kurtkinetictrainer.htm it is worth it and a great motivator. Andy's book is a good idea. http://www.amazon.com/Training-Racing-Power-Meter-Hunter/dp/1931382794/sr=1-1/qid=1166099313/ref=sr_1_1/105-8192470-2306026?ie=UTF8&s=books
I only got a new turbo trainer 2 weeks ago. TacX swing so....
Anyways, I think you can pick powertaps up on ebay for about $500-$550.

Im not sure whether to commit though. As I said in my original post ive only been on the bike since October. Fair enough I like it and im enjoying it so far but alot of money has been spent between clothes, bike, TT etc.
Who knows what next year will bring! Maybe I should just go with friels plan for now with local coach input. Ill think about it.
 
They might have a speed to power formula on their site or some cycling geek with a PT and the same trainer on the power training forum may have figured it out already. If not my post on page one really is a way to find the sweet spot without the hardware. Just get in that zone and check your cadence, gear combo and then HRM. Use cadence and gear combo for the first 15 minutes then in the last 5 minutes HRM should be on target. Right now 52/21 at 92 rpm is SST for me.

credit_agro said:
I only got a new turbo trainer 2 weeks ago. TacX swing so....
Anyways, I think you can pick powertaps up on ebay for about $500-$550.

Im not sure whether to commit though. As I said in my original post ive only been on the bike since October. Fair enough I like it and im enjoying it so far but alot of money has been spent between clothes, bike, TT etc.
Who knows what next year will bring! Maybe I should just go with friels plan for now with local coach input. Ill think about it.
 
is this sub-forum "power trainers" verses the "base build and peak" guys?

:)
 
credit_agro said:
I only got a new turbo trainer 2 weeks ago. TacX swing so....
Anyways, I think you can pick powertaps up on ebay for about $500-$550.

Im not sure whether to commit though. As I said in my original post ive only been on the bike since October. Fair enough I like it and im enjoying it so far but alot of money has been spent between clothes, bike, TT etc.
Who knows what next year will bring! Maybe I should just go with friels plan for now with local coach input. Ill think about it.
Don't lose faith.

The most important thing about a training plan, in my eyes, is the thought that goes into it. The second most important thing is the execution of said plan.

You have started to think critically about what kind of training will take you to the goals that you have defined for yourself.

Listen to other people's views and learn from the different directions, but stay your course. Don't lose sight of the big picture.

Follow the plan that you have thought about and constructed for yourself. When it comes time to evaluate the plan, at the end of the upcoming season, do so critically. Then you can figure out what worked for you and what didn't. Then you can create another yearly plan for the following season that takes into account your increased level of aerobic fitness and your new goals.

One thing that you need to understand is that some of the thoughts that you are getting on this forum are from people that have been training longer than you.

Honestly, because you don't have much aerobic fitness at this time, you will see an adaptation by doing zone 2, like you have detailed. Conversely, as you build your fitness, you will have to increase either the volume or the intensity to keep adapting to the stress.

Jim
 
It's obviously important to train correctly, but I'm starting to believe that super-exact, precise training techniques run a very distant 3rd to being lean, and knowing when your body needs a hard riding or rest.
In my opnion, it's almost pointless having a great motor if the rider is 15 pounds over weight

The fastest guys I see around aren't ones who know their EXACT interval length, wattage and/or HR, they're the guys who are lean and race the most, but not too much.:)

I'm continually haunted by the thought many pros coming off no specific training -- just a gutbusting season -- then pulling out great time-trials at the Worlds. Brad McGee came straight off the 2004 Tour and took 4000m silver at the Olympics. LeMond rode his guts out for 3 weeks then did that amazing time-trial in '89.

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm gunna focus on losing 15 pounds instead of focusing on where I could improve my interval work.

anyway......:)
 
credit_agro said:
I only got a new turbo trainer 2 weeks ago. TacX swing
I own a Tacx Swing (I use it for pre-race warmup) and I posted some power/speed numbers a couple of months ago. You can use this trainer to target specific adaptations if you use a % of max sustainable speed approach to setting intensities. But, beware of two issues. The first is that tires make a big difference in absolute watts (if you find my posts you will see the difference because I switched tires in the middle of my tests). This is irrelevant for setting intensities for intervals (so long as you don't switch tires after you get your benchmarks), but is relevant to any attempt to interpret speed numbers as absolute watts numbers. The second is that the power/speed relationship drifts a bit during the course of an interval even after you've warmed up the trainer (~2-4% during the course of a 20min interval IIRC). All trainers do this and you can make adjustments if you have an idea how much the trainer drifts as a function of time. You can either increase your speed slightly during the course of the interval or (if you want to ride at a constant speed) add a little speed to your target so that it averages out at your target. I imagine you want to know your absolute watts, but I think this is a waste of time. The only thing that is important is that you ride at an appropriate intensity for the adaptation you are targeting. It is largely irrelevant how many watts that is.

P.S., here's the thread I referred to http://www.cyclingforums.com/t358629.html
 
RapDaddyo said:
I own a Tacx Swing (I use it for pre-race warmup) and I posted some power/speed numbers a couple of months ago. You can use this trainer to target specific adaptations if you use a % of max sustainable speed approach to setting intensities. But, beware of two issues. The first is that tires make a big difference in absolute watts (if you find my posts you will see the difference because I switched tires in the middle of my tests). This is irrelevant for setting intensities for intervals (so long as you don't switch tires after you get your benchmarks), but is relevant to any attempt to interpret speed numbers as absolute watts numbers. The second is that the power/speed relationship drifts a bit during the course of an interval even after you've warmed up the trainer (~2-4% during the course of a 20min interval IIRC). All trainers do this and you can make adjustments if you have an idea how much the trainer drifts as a function of time. You can either increase your speed slightly during the course of the interval or (if you want to ride at a constant speed) add a little speed to your target so that it averages out at your target. I imagine you want to know your absolute watts, but I think this is a waste of time. The only thing that is important is that you ride at an appropriate intensity for the adaptation you are targeting. It is largely irrelevant how many watts that is.

P.S., here's the thread I referred to http://www.cyclingforums.com/t358629.html
Right this is incredibly handy. Ill be able to get an idea of RPE from the trainer aswell for use out on the road.

Cheers. I haven't time to read properly over the linked thread at the moment but ill read it this evening.
 
credit_agro said:
I have to be honest, I haven't really got a f***in clue what to do now. 2hrs is along time on a turbo trainer (last night) and some weeks I may have to do a 3hr session on it. Im sure its kind of obvious to you why my motivation has dwindled ten fold since starting this thread. There seems to be so much conflicting advice out there.

If you will take some advice from a rider who is probably pretty similar to you (me). I was in your same situation this time last year. I put a lot of time and money into riding, buying new gear, researching different training plans, and eventually getting burnt out of riding and racing because everything I did did not result in any first place rides for Cat5. By the time my season was over in September, I hated riding and I have not had any desire to ride until recently. Just within the last few weeks I have started to have the drive to jump on the bike. For this reason I am going to give you the following advice:

Take the advice of the great Eddy Merckx: "Ride Lots!". You are a beginner. If you want to race, that is great but there is no need for a brand new rider to get themselves into a super rigid training schedule. Cycling is like any other skill in life. It is a process of motor development. When you first went to school, you probably did not attend school for the length of time you would have in college or graduate school. Treat cycling in the same manner. Treat your first year like elementary school. It should be a learning process, but much of it should also be fun. Get your feet wet, find out what you are good at, make some friends, and develop the initial skills needed for success later.

Second, do not discouraged by the conflicting reports, but rather indulge in them! Think of any science or discipline out there. Is there ever one way of approaching a problem, one philosophy to explain all of history, etc? No! Cycling is the same. Remember that all of this is exercise science. It is another science. The only problem is that our experimental groups are human beings, therefore it is not a perfect science. Being a registered cycling coach myself, I would recomend that you start riding to ride. Just have fun with it, but do keep fitness development in mind. Give yourself recovery when need be (make sure there is at least one day off the bike or only doing light spinning at around 65% MHR). The rest of the time go out and hit it. This can be a hard group ride, solo hard ride, long ride at a steady pace, etc. At this point, the most important aspect is riding. Do this for 12-16 weeks. As you do all of this, keep reading the forums, purchase more books, hit up the internet, and find some training plans that appeal to you (make sure they come from a credible source obviously). As you come closer to completing the 12-16 weeks of just riding, start thinking about one race you would like to prepare for and use some of the techniques in Friel's book to set out a training plan (feel free to use other expert's techniques). It is not a static thing where if you combine different aspects of different training plans you will void the positive effects of training.

Lastly, do not make the mistake I did and spend more time researching the newest gadgets, buying a ton of equipment, and forgetting that the most important thing is to ride. I hope that helps! I know it sounds frustrating but relax! How much are you gonna enjoy this sport if you are this stressed when doing your training? Make some goals for yourself and have fun! Don't make the mistakes I did! :)
~Nick
 
Why not do both? An increase of 24 watts will feel like you lost 10 pounds only your pants will still fit it's a win win situation.:)

531Aussie said:
It's obviously important to train correctly, but I'm starting to believe that super-exact, precise training techniques run a very distant 3rd to being lean, and knowing when your body needs a hard riding or rest.
In my opnion, it's almost pointless having a great motor if the rider is 15 pounds over weight

The fastest guys I see around aren't ones who know their EXACT interval length, wattage and/or HR, they're the guys who are lean and race the most, but not too much.:)

I'm continually haunted by the thought many pros coming off no specific training -- just a gutbusting season -- then pulling out great time-trials at the Worlds. Brad McGee came straight off the 2004 Tour and took 4000m silver at the Olympics. LeMond rode his guts out for 3 weeks then did that amazing time-trial in '89.

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm gunna focus on losing 15 pounds instead of focusing on where I could improve my interval work.

anyway......:)
 
ccrnnr9 said:
do not make the mistake I did and spend more time researching the newest gadgets, buying a ton of equipment, and forgetting that the most important thing is to ride.
I would not put a power meter in this category (i.e., gadget). The thing about a PM for a newbie is that it provides irrefutable evidence of increases in sustainable power. If you can sustain 10W more for a given duration than you could before, that's progress. As humans, we like evidence of progress. It provides additional motivation, which leads to more progress and so on. Increasing one's power may not be the same thing as winning a race, but I find it enormously satisfying and motivational.
 
RapDaddyo said:
I would not put a power meter in this category (i.e., gadget). The thing about a PM for a newbie is that it provides irrefutable evidence of increases in sustainable power. If you can sustain 10W more for a given duration than you could before, that's progress. As humans, we like evidence of progress. It provides additional motivation, which leads to more progress and so on. Increasing one's power may not be the same thing as winning a race, but I find it enormously satisfying and motivational.
I agree completely. I just wanted to throw my word of caution out there that although it is common sense that a gadget cannot make you perform better by itself, it is worth being said.
 
ccrnnr9 said:
Take the advice of the great Eddy Merckx: "Ride Lots!".
I'm okay with that, as a starting point. However, I would be wary of the natural corollary to that philosophy, which is "if improvement/goals/success don't come, Ride More!" At some point the methods need to be questioned, rather than just the volume.

Which team are you on, Nick? I do many of the club rides around Olathe/Overland Park/Lenexa.
 
frenchyge said:
I'm okay with that, as a starting point. However, I would be wary of the natural corollary to that philosophy, which is "if improvement/goals/success don't come, Ride More!" At some point the methods need to be questioned, rather than just the volume.
I agree completely. I should have mentioned that in my first post. "Ride lots" does not translate to ride more=more success. There is a delicate line, but generally speaking, as a beginner it is a good idea to get a good amount of experience riding. The only way to do that is to get on the bike more. That is all I meant by that. There should still be a careful effort to limit ride times and to make sure every athlete gets adequate recovery.

I ride for Cowtown Cycling based out of the North Kansas City area. Personally I reside in Liberty but I go to college at Truman State University in Kirksville, MO. I participated in almost every one of the tuesday night crits in lenexa this past summer.
~Nick
 
wiredued said:
Why not do both? An increase of 24 watts will feel like you lost 10 pounds only your pants will still fit it's a win win situation.:)
hmmmm....good point
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ccrnnr9 said:
I ride for Cowtown Cycling based out of the North Kansas City area. Personally I reside in Liberty but I go to college at Truman State University in Kirksville, MO. I participated in almost every one of the tuesday night crits in lenexa this past summer.
~Nick
I'm sure I saw you out there then. I'm on SKC Racing. See you in the spring. :)
 

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