the eating intelligence



B

bob

Guest
I have been plotting this post for some time, as i made it through my first
year of maintaining a 40+ pound weight loss.

I noticed that the more heated debate in this group mainly came from people
who said it was just a matter of eating less, and those who, if they did not
flat out disagree, at least tried to say that it was more complicated than
that. As I said once last year, saying that eating less is the key to losing
weight is like saying the key to not dying is to keep breathing. It is one
of those truisms that is so central as to be largely useless in day to day
practice. Mostly it misses the real problem, which is not about the eating
itself, but control over the eating.

Indeed, in this group and around other people, people can be divided into
two camps, those who understand the problems of people trying to diet (eat
less) and those who do not understand what the fuss is about. Just do it (or
more correctly, don't do it). The second group, usually people who have
never had a problem with their weight, view it as a simple thing, not worthy
of the anguish so many of us with weight problem talk about.

As i began acquiring the ability (through low carb) to control my eating
more at will, I began developing a theory about the issue that can explain
one group to another. My background work experience is in the medical field
with a subset of AI known as Expert Systems, which are specialized computer
programs that assist in decision. One of the things that fascinates me was
the expert systems utilized by the brain, and the study of what happens to
people when one of these systems goes wrong.

Expert systems in the human brain function just like their computer
counterparts, they focus on only one task, and bend the consciousness of the
person towards that task. There are a host of these systems that have been
identified, and usually one or more of these systems work in opposition to
one another, and we exist in point of equilibrium between competing systems.

The classic example of this are two perception expert systems, the first
that notices things that are different, needing more attention, and the
opposing one that tries to make sense of everything to prevent needless
distractions. If something goes wrong with the second system, the person
will have what is known as blinded sight, where one can see, but cannot
really make sense of anything they see. If the first system fails, (usually
as the result of a stroke) a truly spectacular syndrome known as "false
limb" syndrome can occur. In this syndrome, the victim will not view a limb
(usually paralzed by the stroke) as their own, and claim it is not theirs,
or say it is someone elses. The "make sense of it all" intelligence will not
be held in check by the damaged "hey what is different here?" intelligence
and will spin out of control ideas to account for the paralysis. What is
remarkable about this is that the patient is usually completely rational in
every other sense, can talk intelligently, make other kinds of decisions and
observations, but in this one thing will say something completely off the
wall. "that's my brother's arm" where is your brother? "In cleveland". A
doctor i spoke to one day that had recently seen a case said that it shook
her whole concept about what conscious intelligence really meant. If
something as fundamental as our body self recognition could be warped so out
of control while the rest of our rationality remained intact, she felt that
she had lost her bearings on what human rationality was.

What has this to do with dieting? Well, very clearly there is an important
expert system (or systems) whose main job is to remind us to eat. Given the
time and planning that went into obtaining food for primative man (requiring
preparations hours, days or even a year or more in advance), this system is
fairly involved and must have a significant role in our consciousness. Of
course, this consciousness has way too much to do when food is as readily
available as it is these days. Like the stroke victim, it can warp our
perception and rational thought. I know i have driven home while thinking
very consciously about what I should eat to maintain my diet, only to get
home, and before bed, find that I have violated every single rational
thought i had driving home. Like the stroke victim, what i thought when i
got those triscuits and peanutbutter made perfect sense at the time.

Clearly, some people have stronger eating intellegences than others, or
perhaps some have stronger intellegence systems that keep the eating
intelligence in check. For me, the low carb diet shut my eating intelligence
off, and as carbs were added back, brought it back in a much more manageable
form. As i moved towards a managable diet, I began to see the tricks that
the eating intelligence would play on me. I began creating work arounds and
counter-tricks (removing certain foods from the house slowly drinking a
glass of wine while cooking, etc.) to deal with my eating intelligence.

So those of you who have no problem with over eating (exactly why are you in
this group anyway?) should be a bit more understanding, and those who do,
recognize you are dealing with a very crafty being (yourself) that is next
to impossible to defeat in its unrestrained form, so weakening, and
outwitting it is our best bet.

Bob
200+/160/160.5
maint. since 12/09/2003
 
B

bob

Guest
"Ignoramus3578" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> I lost 50 lbs by eating less, maintained for 10 months, was at normal
> weight, my weight was not changing, and yet I was hungry and food
> obsessed most of the time. It took dropping wheat and starches to stop
> that.


"hungry and food obsessed", that says it all. I remember that in the 80's
and 90s when i did sugar busters and low fat. the most i ever managed to
lose was 15 pounds, and it began coming back immediately. That you lost 50
pounds and kept it off for 10 months is an incredible feat in the face of
that little voice that kept saying...eat eat eat....

Like you, when i adjusted carbs, the voice went away. (during an extended
induction, i had to put reminder tasks in my outlook calendar to eat) It was
a really bizarre experience. Having that drive gone so suddenly and so
completely actually allowed me to try and sort it out a little and see what
habits in my behavior and personality were a function of the food drive. I
attribute my success with the diet to responding to and utilizing that lack
of hunger mind to create new behaviors and habits (example: as my weight
dropped, i upped my exercise, pushing the limits now expanded by the feeling
of lightness that comes with newly lost weight and turning that into habit
before the feeling went away.) The people i know who succeeded only short
term with low carb seemed to me to fail to establish new behavior patterns
during that period when the no hunger sign is out.

bob
 
T

Tom

Guest
"bob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> "Ignoramus3578" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> > I lost 50 lbs by eating less, maintained for 10 months, was at normal
> > weight, my weight was not changing, and yet I was hungry and food
> > obsessed most of the time. It took dropping wheat and starches to stop
> > that.

>
> "hungry and food obsessed", that says it all. I remember that in the 80's
> and 90s when i did sugar busters and low fat. the most i ever managed to
> lose was 15 pounds, and it began coming back immediately. That you lost 50
> pounds and kept it off for 10 months is an incredible feat in the face of
> that little voice that kept saying...eat eat eat....
>
> Like you, when i adjusted carbs, the voice went away. (during an extended
> induction, i had to put reminder tasks in my outlook calendar to eat) It

was
> a really bizarre experience. Having that drive gone so suddenly and so
> completely actually allowed me to try and sort it out a little and see

what
> habits in my behavior and personality were a function of the food drive. I
> attribute my success with the diet to responding to and utilizing that

lack
> of hunger mind to create new behaviors and habits (example: as my weight
> dropped, i upped my exercise, pushing the limits now expanded by the

feeling
> of lightness that comes with newly lost weight and turning that into habit
> before the feeling went away.) The people i know who succeeded only short
> term with low carb seemed to me to fail to establish new behavior patterns
> during that period when the no hunger sign is out.


Yes, almost everyone I personally know that had lost the weight on
lo-carb, ended up going back to the old habits. The diet works great. It
seems that eating this way for the long term is the difficult part.
Tom
210/180/180
>
> bob
>
>
 
B

bob

Guest
I second that request.
as i entered maintenance, i was struck by how little info was available on
the net about long term low carbing. the studies i read seemed to confirm
that more people had success losing weight with low carb than had success
keeping it off. Is low carb more of a weight loss plan than a weight
maintaining plan? if so what are people transitioning to?

this is not an academic question for me, i had committed to one year of low
carb maintenance, no tinkering. that year has passed, and while i feel no
urge to experiment, the lack of many long termers does give me pause and
make me wonder if i should be looking at something else.


"Ignoramus3578" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:42:22 GMT, Tom <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> "bob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]
>>> "Ignoramus3578" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]
>>> > I lost 50 lbs by eating less, maintained for 10 months, was at normal
>>> > weight, my weight was not changing, and yet I was hungry and food
>>> > obsessed most of the time. It took dropping wheat and starches to stop
>>> > that.
>>>
>>> "hungry and food obsessed", that says it all. I remember that in the
>>> 80's
>>> and 90s when i did sugar busters and low fat. the most i ever managed to
>>> lose was 15 pounds, and it began coming back immediately. That you lost
>>> 50
>>> pounds and kept it off for 10 months is an incredible feat in the face
>>> of
>>> that little voice that kept saying...eat eat eat....
>>>
>>> Like you, when i adjusted carbs, the voice went away. (during an
>>> extended
>>> induction, i had to put reminder tasks in my outlook calendar to eat) It

>> was
>>> a really bizarre experience. Having that drive gone so suddenly and so
>>> completely actually allowed me to try and sort it out a little and see

>> what
>>> habits in my behavior and personality were a function of the food drive.
>>> I
>>> attribute my success with the diet to responding to and utilizing that

>> lack
>>> of hunger mind to create new behaviors and habits (example: as my weight
>>> dropped, i upped my exercise, pushing the limits now expanded by the

>> feeling
>>> of lightness that comes with newly lost weight and turning that into
>>> habit
>>> before the feeling went away.) The people i know who succeeded only
>>> short
>>> term with low carb seemed to me to fail to establish new behavior
>>> patterns
>>> during that period when the no hunger sign is out.

>>
>> Yes, almost everyone I personally know that had lost the weight on
>> lo-carb, ended up going back to the old habits. The diet works great. It
>> seems that eating this way for the long term is the difficult part.

>
> I am curious, can you expand on this a little bit? I am very
> interested in how to stick to this diet long term, what the challenges
> are etc. I have been on it for 5 months and so far, it is not
> difficult. Obviously 5 months does not qualify as long term.
>
> --
> 223/172.2/180
 
T

The Low-Carb Bartender

Guest
"> I noticed that the more heated debate in this group mainly came from
people
> who said it was just a matter of eating less, and those who, if they did
> not flat out disagree, at least tried to say that it was more complicated
> than that.


It's not the diet that causes failure, it's the dieter. To me, losing weight
is simply a means to an end.

Keeping the weight off---by practicing moderation, and not deprivation, is
the key.

The Low Carb Bartender
 
D

Dave LCHF

Guest
Bob, your post makes my top ten list, and I'm saving it.

You have a new take on my cardinal view on dieting. My view is that people
distort their perception of food quantity, when hungry. Your comparison to
phantom limbs is amazing.

Thus, willpower fails in the conflict with hunger.

Strategy: I call the body's regulatory system for calorie intake a "calorie
thermostat." To lose weight, one must manipulate the calorie thermostat. I
see two ways to do this. First, is by eating a very low carb and high fat
diet. This adjusts the thermostat to a lower setting. For the second
manipulation: I see the calorie thermostat as having two thresholds. If
one eats low carb high fat (LCHF) to just feel comfortable and satisfied
with calorie quantity, you are operating at what I will call "thermostat
threshold A." This will produce slow weightloss for the obese, since the
LCHF diet has lowered thermostat threshold A. I define calorie "thermostat
threshold B" as the level where one has made a conscious effort to restrict
calories, and the calorie thermostat has just kicked in to distort the mind
to force one to fail at the conscious task of restriction. My second
strategy of weight control is to live near calorie thermostat threshold B.
Threshold A works, but threshold B works faster.

hysteresis : "The lagging of an effect behind its cause."

The calorie thermostat (at both A & B) has a lot of hysteresis. I estimate
a 2 to 3 week delay in the pattern of calorie thermostat levels. Thus, if I
push my calories too low this week, my calorie thermostat thresholds are
likely to be at higher levels in about a month. Conversely, if I eat an
extra hundred calories per day this week, the threshold will likely drop by
as much about a month from now.

With all this in mind, one must maintain a mild steady effort to reduce
portions, while allowing a bit of extra food as the hunger crops up.

IMHO: A single day of increased calories will not disrupt progress as
measured about 2 months after the event. Thus one can have feast days, and
still lose weight. However, too many feast days will slow progress long
term. Having high calorie days about 2 weeks apart, seems to be a workable
strategy. I like to do this. I suspect that occasional feasting is a
natural thing, but YMMV.

copyright 2004 Dave Filice
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/LowCarbHighFat/


"bob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> I have been plotting this post for some time, as i made it through my

first
> year of maintaining a 40+ pound weight loss.
>
> I noticed that the more heated debate in this group mainly came from

people
> who said it was just a matter of eating less, and those who, if they did

not
> flat out disagree, at least tried to say that it was more complicated than
> that. As I said once last year, saying that eating less is the key to

losing
> weight is like saying the key to not dying is to keep breathing. It is one
> of those truisms that is so central as to be largely useless in day to day
> practice. Mostly it misses the real problem, which is not about the eating
> itself, but control over the eating.
>
> Indeed, in this group and around other people, people can be divided into
> two camps, those who understand the problems of people trying to diet (eat
> less) and those who do not understand what the fuss is about. Just do it

(or
> more correctly, don't do it). The second group, usually people who have
> never had a problem with their weight, view it as a simple thing, not

worthy
> of the anguish so many of us with weight problem talk about.
>
> As i began acquiring the ability (through low carb) to control my eating
> more at will, I began developing a theory about the issue that can explain
> one group to another. My background work experience is in the medical

field
> with a subset of AI known as Expert Systems, which are specialized

computer
> programs that assist in decision. One of the things that fascinates me was
> the expert systems utilized by the brain, and the study of what happens to
> people when one of these systems goes wrong.
>
> Expert systems in the human brain function just like their computer
> counterparts, they focus on only one task, and bend the consciousness of

the
> person towards that task. There are a host of these systems that have been
> identified, and usually one or more of these systems work in opposition to
> one another, and we exist in point of equilibrium between competing

systems.
>
> The classic example of this are two perception expert systems, the first
> that notices things that are different, needing more attention, and the
> opposing one that tries to make sense of everything to prevent needless
> distractions. If something goes wrong with the second system, the person
> will have what is known as blinded sight, where one can see, but cannot
> really make sense of anything they see. If the first system fails,

(usually
> as the result of a stroke) a truly spectacular syndrome known as "false
> limb" syndrome can occur. In this syndrome, the victim will not view a

limb
> (usually paralzed by the stroke) as their own, and claim it is not theirs,
> or say it is someone elses. The "make sense of it all" intelligence will

not
> be held in check by the damaged "hey what is different here?" intelligence
> and will spin out of control ideas to account for the paralysis. What is
> remarkable about this is that the patient is usually completely rational

in
> every other sense, can talk intelligently, make other kinds of decisions

and
> observations, but in this one thing will say something completely off the
> wall. "that's my brother's arm" where is your brother? "In cleveland". A
> doctor i spoke to one day that had recently seen a case said that it shook
> her whole concept about what conscious intelligence really meant. If
> something as fundamental as our body self recognition could be warped so

out
> of control while the rest of our rationality remained intact, she felt

that
> she had lost her bearings on what human rationality was.
>
> What has this to do with dieting? Well, very clearly there is an important
> expert system (or systems) whose main job is to remind us to eat. Given

the
> time and planning that went into obtaining food for primative man

(requiring
> preparations hours, days or even a year or more in advance), this system

is
> fairly involved and must have a significant role in our consciousness. Of
> course, this consciousness has way too much to do when food is as readily
> available as it is these days. Like the stroke victim, it can warp our
> perception and rational thought. I know i have driven home while thinking
> very consciously about what I should eat to maintain my diet, only to get
> home, and before bed, find that I have violated every single rational
> thought i had driving home. Like the stroke victim, what i thought when i
> got those triscuits and peanutbutter made perfect sense at the time.
>
> Clearly, some people have stronger eating intellegences than others, or
> perhaps some have stronger intellegence systems that keep the eating
> intelligence in check. For me, the low carb diet shut my eating

intelligence
> off, and as carbs were added back, brought it back in a much more

manageable
> form. As i moved towards a managable diet, I began to see the tricks that
> the eating intelligence would play on me. I began creating work arounds

and
> counter-tricks (removing certain foods from the house slowly drinking a
> glass of wine while cooking, etc.) to deal with my eating intelligence.
>
> So those of you who have no problem with over eating (exactly why are you

in
> this group anyway?) should be a bit more understanding, and those who do,
> recognize you are dealing with a very crafty being (yourself) that is next
> to impossible to defeat in its unrestrained form, so weakening, and
> outwitting it is our best bet.
>
> Bob
> 200+/160/160.5
> maint. since 12/09/2003
>
>
 
T

Tom

Guest
"Ignoramus3578" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:42:22 GMT, Tom <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > "bob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]
> >> "Ignoramus3578" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> news:[email protected]
> >> > I lost 50 lbs by eating less, maintained for 10 months, was at normal
> >> > weight, my weight was not changing, and yet I was hungry and food
> >> > obsessed most of the time. It took dropping wheat and starches to

stop
> >> > that.
> >>
> >> "hungry and food obsessed", that says it all. I remember that in the

80's
> >> and 90s when i did sugar busters and low fat. the most i ever managed

to
> >> lose was 15 pounds, and it began coming back immediately. That you lost

50
> >> pounds and kept it off for 10 months is an incredible feat in the face

of
> >> that little voice that kept saying...eat eat eat....
> >>
> >> Like you, when i adjusted carbs, the voice went away. (during an

extended
> >> induction, i had to put reminder tasks in my outlook calendar to eat)

It
> > was
> >> a really bizarre experience. Having that drive gone so suddenly and so
> >> completely actually allowed me to try and sort it out a little and see

> > what
> >> habits in my behavior and personality were a function of the food

drive. I
> >> attribute my success with the diet to responding to and utilizing that

> > lack
> >> of hunger mind to create new behaviors and habits (example: as my

weight
> >> dropped, i upped my exercise, pushing the limits now expanded by the

> > feeling
> >> of lightness that comes with newly lost weight and turning that into

habit
> >> before the feeling went away.) The people i know who succeeded only

short
> >> term with low carb seemed to me to fail to establish new behavior

patterns
> >> during that period when the no hunger sign is out.

> >
> > Yes, almost everyone I personally know that had lost the weight on
> > lo-carb, ended up going back to the old habits. The diet works great. It
> > seems that eating this way for the long term is the difficult part.

>
> I am curious, can you expand on this a little bit? I am very
> interested in how to stick to this diet long term, what the challenges
> are etc. I have been on it for 5 months and so far, it is not
> difficult. Obviously 5 months does not qualify as long term.
>
> --
> 223/172.2/180


I agree Ig. I have asked my friends what has happened. For some reason,
they feel that they are missing out on too many food choices not available
to them on lo-carb. I have tried to explain to them that it seems a good way
to eat and that I have not experienced the same problem. They did not have
any medical problems that I'm aware of. Perhaps they did not benefit from it
as much as others have, so they don't have added rewards to stick with it.
My acid reflux is totally gone. Shoulder joint aches are gone as well.
Maybe, if all I had gotten was weight loss, then I may have been more
inclined to think this is only a temporary way to eat until the goal is
achieved. They have stated though, that it is a good way to lose weight if
they need to do it again. So are they going down the same paths as other
diets? Only eat the way it says until the weight is gone and then it's back
to the way it was? I'm confused about it myself. If the diet works so well,
then why wouldn't people stick to it long term? One other thing. Some of
them still think that carbs are very important to a proper diet. Even though
they had eaten lo-carb for 3 to 6 months. I think I'm missing something. I
don't see it as they do. To me, it is healthy, and I intend to keep eating
like this.
Tom
 
T

Tom

Guest
"Ignoramus3578" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 18:21:33 GMT, Tom <[email protected]> wrote:
> > "Ignoramus3578" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> I am curious, can you expand on this a little bit? I am very
> >> interested in how to stick to this diet long term, what the challenges
> >> are etc. I have been on it for 5 months and so far, it is not
> >> difficult. Obviously 5 months does not qualify as long term.
> >>

> >
> > I agree Ig. I have asked my friends what has happened. For some
> > reason, they feel that they are missing out on too many food choices
> > not available to them on lo-carb. I have tried to explain to them
> > that it seems a good way to eat and that I have not experienced the
> > same problem.

>
> Personally, I am not constrained by say having to travel. So I cook
> for myself whatever I want, or eat out (we have a grilled chicken
> place). Visiting friends etc, can sometimes be quite a strain on the
> diet though.
>
> > They did not have any medical problems that I'm aware of. Perhaps
> > they did not benefit from it as much as others have, so they don't
> > have added rewards to stick with it. My acid reflux is totally
> > gone. Shoulder joint aches are gone as well.

>
> My acid reflux went away as soon as I started eating less, even before
> low carbing, but it took going low carb to get rid of knee pain.


Perhaps the amount of benefits plays a major role in whether a person
decides to change lifestyle for the rest of their life.
>
>
> --
> 223/172.4/180
 
B

bob

Guest
Tom, I don't see any conceptual problem with a diet being a good way to lose
weight only. The problem is, as this thread has mentioned, there seems to be
very little data to go on.

While I and others feel better on low carb, to be fair, it is far more
likely that the good feeling is the weight loss we recently experienced (and
or the increased exercise). We must be careful to sep. the effects of the
weight loss and the effects of low carb. The only way to know for sure is to
plan and execute a "normal" maintenance diet and see how we feel. I am not
ready to do this yet, but am thinking about it. My main concern would be:
are all the hunger cravings going to come back and will i be able to manage
them. The secondary concer would be whether i have any other health effects
(cholesterol, joint pain etc)

I have not felt like I am "missing out" on a lot of good foods. I love to
cook, and cook things that taste great and are low carb. Deserts were never
the main problem for me, even though i like them, at least while on low
carb, the temptation has been easy to resist. Portions and snacking were the
issue. I was convinced that sugar was a pervasive problem before i started
low carb and remain convinced. I view my refusal to buy any food ingredient
that has more than 3 grams of sugar as a perm change not subject to
negotiation. the carbs I have added back are whole grain, and low volume. I
did have 2 red lobster refined flour cheese buscuits when i took my college
student daughter out to eat the other day, and expect that that kind of
infrequent, low level "feasting" will be part of my routine in the future. I
just still fear at this point that if i had a carb bomb like that every
night with supper, that the hunger and the portions would begin increasing.



"Tom" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:Ng%[email protected]
> achieved. They have stated though, that it is a good way to lose weight if
> they need to do it again. So are they going down the same paths as other
> diets? Only eat the way it says until the weight is gone and then it's
> back
> to the way it was? I'm confused about it myself. If the diet works so
> well,
> then why wouldn't people stick to it long term? One other thing. Some of
> them still think that carbs are very important to a proper diet. Even
> though
> they had eaten lo-carb for 3 to 6 months. I think I'm missing something. I
> don't see it as they do. To me, it is healthy, and I intend to keep eating
> like this.
> Tom
>
>
 
T

The Low-Carb Bartender

Guest

> IMHO: A single day of increased calories will not disrupt progress as
> measured about 2 months after the event. Thus one can have feast days,
> and
> still lose weight.


It's like the old story of the kid whose mother says he can't have a cookie
before dinner. She walks out of the kitchen, he climbs up on the counter and
gorges on the entire contents of the cookie jar. Why? Because he was told he
couldn't have one cookie.

It boils down to moderation, and not deprivation.

The Low Carb Bartender
 
M

MU

Guest
On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:42:22 GMT, Tom wrote:

> Yes, almost everyone I personally know that had lost the weight on
> lo-carb, ended up going back to the old habits. The diet works great. It
> seems that eating this way for the long term is the difficult part.


That's because nothing really changed.
 
B

bob

Guest
It would be inaccurate to say nothing changed. Something did change (weight,
waistlines). the problem seems to be that behaviors and habits did not
change.

"MU" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:42:22 GMT, Tom wrote:
>
>> Yes, almost everyone I personally know that had lost the weight on
>> lo-carb, ended up going back to the old habits. The diet works great. It
>> seems that eating this way for the long term is the difficult part.

>
> That's because nothing really changed.
 
B

bob

Guest
you are right, your experience fits the test model...and is a worthwhile
data point.



"Ignoramus3578" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 19:37:30 GMT, bob <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> Tom, I don't see any conceptual problem with a diet being a good way to
>> lose
>> weight only. The problem is, as this thread has mentioned, there seems to
>> be
>> very little data to go on.
>>
>> While I and others feel better on low carb, to be fair, it is far more
>> likely that the good feeling is the weight loss we recently experienced
>> (and
>> or the increased exercise).

>
> My low carbing was a much cleaner experiment than the experience of
> most other people here.
>
> I did NOT lose weight on low carb. I lost weight by eating less.
>
> I switched to LC at normal weight. I have not lost a single pound on
> LC. I started LC at 172.586 7 day average weight, and am now at
> 172.400 7 day average weight. 0.186 lbs lost in 5 months. I am fine
> with that.
>
> The only improvement that LC brought about, was cessation of knee pain
> that I had. I suspect that it is the result of giving up grains.
>
> Effect of eating less and losing weight was dramatic: I have no more
> heartburn, no more colds, no more jock itch, better and less sleep, no
> more tired feet, I could go on forever. I also perform better in bed
> than 1.5 years ago.
>
> LC did not reverse any of these improvements, but it also stopped knee
> pain.
>
>> We must be careful to sep. the effects of the weight loss and the
>> effects of low carb. The only way to know for sure is to plan and
>> execute a "normal" maintenance diet and see how we feel. I am not
>> ready to do this yet, but am thinking about it.

>
> I have done just that, in reverse.
>
>> My main concern would be: are all the hunger cravings going to come
>> back

>
> Probably.
>
>> and will i be able to manage them.

>
> Not known, but what helped me slightly was eating a lot of vegetables.
>
>> The secondary concer would be whether i have any other health
>> effects (cholesterol, joint pain etc)

>
> Check and see.
>
>> I have not felt like I am "missing out" on a lot of good foods. I
>> love to cook, and cook things that taste great and are low
>> carb. Deserts were never the main problem for me, even though i like
>> them, at least while on low carb, the temptation has been easy to
>> resist. Portions and snacking were the issue. I was convinced that
>> sugar was a pervasive problem before i started low carb and remain
>> convinced.

>
> It agrees with my experiences. I also completely banned sugar from my
> life, except in minute quantities. (like herring).
>
> --
> 223/172.4/180
 
R

Roger Zoul

Guest
The Low-Carb Bartender wrote:
::: IMHO: A single day of increased calories will not disrupt progress
::: as measured about 2 months after the event. Thus one can have
::: feast days, and
::: still lose weight.
::
:: It's like the old story of the kid whose mother says he can't have a
:: cookie before dinner. She walks out of the kitchen, he climbs up on
:: the counter and gorges on the entire contents of the cookie jar.
:: Why? Because he was told he couldn't have one cookie.
::
:: It boils down to moderation, and not deprivation.

But most of us "naturally fat" people know nothing of moderation. So, if it
boils down to moderation, how are we supposed to be able to reach that
state? IMO, this is just like saying "eat less".
 
T

Tom

Guest
"Ignoramus3578" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 19:15:19 GMT, Tom <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >> My acid reflux went away as soon as I started eating less, even before
> >> low carbing, but it took going low carb to get rid of knee pain.

> >
> > Perhaps the amount of benefits plays a major role in whether a

person
> > decides to change lifestyle for the rest of their life.

>
> I do not yet know if I will keep this lifestyle for the rest of my
> life; I will only keep it for as long as it makes sense.


I definitely agree. If for some reason it is proven that the way I'm
eating is dangerous, I would not hesitate to change my diet. Despite vastly
different opinions about the diet, I don't see any evidence of it being
harmful. So far, I have only seen good health from it. I can't see going
back to eating large amounts of junk food no matter what the change would be
in the end though. Time will tell.


Benefits
> definitely do play but, also, I think that different people have a
> varying degree to which they would attempt to finish what they
> started. Some are like bulldogs and some are like butterflies.


I suppose everyone has their own methods and reasons why they choose to
do things in a certain pattern.
Tom
>
>
> --
> 223/172.4/180
 
T

Tom

Guest
"bob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Tom, I don't see any conceptual problem with a diet being a good way to

lose
> weight only. The problem is, as this thread has mentioned, there seems to

be
> very little data to go on.


Right. There is a lot of conflicting info that a person has to wade
through. And the only problem I see with someone only using the diet for
weight loss, is that they may end up yo-yo dieting and could possibly worse
off in the end. If A person can maintain with eating a different way after
the weight is gone, I see know problem.
>
> While I and others feel better on low carb, to be fair, it is far more
> likely that the good feeling is the weight loss we recently experienced

(and
> or the increased exercise). We must be careful to sep. the effects of the
> weight loss and the effects of low carb. The only way to know for sure is

to
> plan and execute a "normal" maintenance diet and see how we feel. I am not
> ready to do this yet, but am thinking about it. My main concern would be:
> are all the hunger cravings going to come back and will i be able to

manage
> them. The secondary concer would be whether i have any other health

effects
> (cholesterol, joint pain etc)


You are correct. It's not like I did a scientific study on myself. When
I was at normal weight up to my middle 30's, I had no problem with acid
reflux. The shear weight itself of the stomach area being pulled to one side
may be in fact a greater influence than the diet itself. Because the
problems disappeared at the same time it is difficult to know for sure. I
did some experiments in the earlier stage of the diet to see if wheat
products were the key. I did suffer from heartburn that night. But, thinking
back, it is possible that I ate to much at the time and that could be the
problem. My achy shoulders could even have been attributed to increased fat
causing decrease of motion and also lack of muscle around the joint could
have been a problem. Even in simple observations, there could be many
variations. I can not deny that one possiblity is better than another. All I
can say is that I feel good right now and I have no physical ailments due to
the way I eat. Is it just the weightloss itself? It's very possible.
>
> I have not felt like I am "missing out" on a lot of good foods. I love to
> cook, and cook things that taste great and are low carb. Deserts were

never
> the main problem for me, even though i like them, at least while on low
> carb, the temptation has been easy to resist. Portions and snacking were

the
> issue. I was convinced that sugar was a pervasive problem before i started
> low carb and remain convinced. I view my refusal to buy any food

ingredient
> that has more than 3 grams of sugar as a perm change not subject to
> negotiation. the carbs I have added back are whole grain, and low volume.

I
> did have 2 red lobster refined flour cheese buscuits when i took my

college
> student daughter out to eat the other day, and expect that that kind of
> infrequent, low level "feasting" will be part of my routine in the future.

I
> just still fear at this point that if i had a carb bomb like that every
> night with supper, that the hunger and the portions would begin

increasing.

Increased hunger after not being as strict will be my fear. So far my
weight is managable and I like that my food choices are not sweet. My energy
levels 'feel to me' to be stable and I really like that. It suits my
lifestyle as well. I don't care to be super happy, and I don't like being as
far down either. I don't feel the need at this point to increase carb
levels. If I increase my activity level even more, I may find I need to, but
so far it hasn't been a problem. I will monitor my overall health after
another year or 2, as well as medical check-ups to be certain that I'm not
harming myself. Either way, I'm willing to risk my life if it means I'm
making an investment for my upcoming old age. It certainly is not worse than
what I was doing before. It could be that if a diet is higher in fat(even
though it's lo-carb) and there is a huge amount of weight gain, it's
possible that a person may have been better off gaining the weight with
carbs. Would the arteries clog up more? I'm just speculating here on the
next thing to try and find any evidence on. By the way, your original post
was an interesting read.
Tom
>
>
>
> "Tom" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:Ng%[email protected]
> > achieved. They have stated though, that it is a good way to lose weight

if
> > they need to do it again. So are they going down the same paths as other
> > diets? Only eat the way it says until the weight is gone and then it's
> > back
> > to the way it was? I'm confused about it myself. If the diet works so
> > well,
> > then why wouldn't people stick to it long term? One other thing. Some of
> > them still think that carbs are very important to a proper diet. Even
> > though
> > they had eaten lo-carb for 3 to 6 months. I think I'm missing something.

I
> > don't see it as they do. To me, it is healthy, and I intend to keep

eating
> > like this.
> > Tom
> >
> >

>
>
 
T

Tom

Guest
"Ignoramus3578" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 20:42:09 GMT, Tom <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > "Ignoramus3578" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]
> >> On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 19:15:19 GMT, Tom <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> My acid reflux went away as soon as I started eating less, even

before
> >> >> low carbing, but it took going low carb to get rid of knee pain.
> >> >
> >> > Perhaps the amount of benefits plays a major role in whether a

> > person
> >> > decides to change lifestyle for the rest of their life.
> >>
> >> I do not yet know if I will keep this lifestyle for the rest of my
> >> life; I will only keep it for as long as it makes sense.

> >
> > I definitely agree. If for some reason it is proven that the way I'm
> > eating is dangerous, I would not hesitate to change my diet. Despite

vastly
> > different opinions about the diet, I don't see any evidence of it being
> > harmful. So far, I have only seen good health from it. I can't see going
> > back to eating large amounts of junk food no matter what the change

would be
> > in the end though. Time will tell.

>
> I am wondering if you are familiar with personality typing and whether
> you read Keirsey's Please Understand Me II. Specifically, do you think
> that you belong to the Rational category.


I have never heard of it. I'll google it and see if I can come up with
something. Or, if you have a link to something on line? I would be
interested to read it.
Tom
>
> --
> 223/172.4/180
 
T

The Low-Carb Bartender

Guest
"> :: It boils down to moderation, and not deprivation.
>
> But most of us "naturally fat" people know nothing of moderation. So, if
> it
> boils down to moderation, how are we supposed to be able to reach that
> state? IMO, this is just like saying "eat less".


It's called personal responsibility. Start dealing with it, like dropping
the weak excuse of being "naturally fat."
 
T

The Low-Carb Bartender

Guest

>
> I am with you here. It is hard for me to do moderation, and I am a
> naturally fat person also. So, Itry to stick to some plan that does
> not require moderation.


Well then, just keep eating away, gourging when you want, and you'll still
be posting your woes here years from now.
 
T

Tom

Guest
"Ignoramus3578" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 20:42:09 GMT, Tom <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > "Ignoramus3578" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]
> >> On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 19:15:19 GMT, Tom <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> My acid reflux went away as soon as I started eating less, even

before
> >> >> low carbing, but it took going low carb to get rid of knee pain.
> >> >
> >> > Perhaps the amount of benefits plays a major role in whether a

> > person
> >> > decides to change lifestyle for the rest of their life.
> >>
> >> I do not yet know if I will keep this lifestyle for the rest of my
> >> life; I will only keep it for as long as it makes sense.

> >
> > I definitely agree. If for some reason it is proven that the way I'm
> > eating is dangerous, I would not hesitate to change my diet. Despite

vastly
> > different opinions about the diet, I don't see any evidence of it being
> > harmful. So far, I have only seen good health from it. I can't see going
> > back to eating large amounts of junk food no matter what the change

would be
> > in the end though. Time will tell.

>
> I am wondering if you are familiar with personality typing and whether
> you read Keirsey's Please Understand Me II. Specifically, do you think
> that you belong to the Rational category.


Hmm. I went to the website. I guess it would have to be a combination of
rational and idealist. I have varied interests and do like to find out the
truth about whatever I can. To give an example; I have a guide that was
written based on military backcountry survival. In it, it states that if you
were to eat snow, you would become dehydrated and die. Sure enough, some
digging around at the library revealed that some people do believe this
because snow melts down to 1/10th it's original size when melted. And
something to do about energy required would cause a water deficit. I've
mentioned it to some, and in fact some do believe it. It does not make sense
to me that it is that way. Other people may be happy with this info. I do
not believe it. And I'm not scared to be vocal about it even if I am in
error. But throughout history there are examples like this kind of
information that were believed for years, but then ended up being wrong. I
think this is one of them.
http://www.nicomeklscouting.ca/program/thingsdo/wintquiz.pdf

As for the idealist side of me, I tend to think I like to help people get
through life and do not like to see anyone suffer. But I'm not a social
worker type person. So it's a smaller part of me I guess than the rational
part. Even though some on this board may not feel that I am rational at
times bacause I don't always agree with what they say. :)
Tom
>
> --
> 223/172.4/180