the eating intelligence

Discussion in 'Food and nutrition' started by bob, Dec 15, 2004.

  1. bob

    bob Guest

    I have been plotting this post for some time, as i made it through my first
    year of maintaining a 40+ pound weight loss.

    I noticed that the more heated debate in this group mainly came from people
    who said it was just a matter of eating less, and those who, if they did not
    flat out disagree, at least tried to say that it was more complicated than
    that. As I said once last year, saying that eating less is the key to losing
    weight is like saying the key to not dying is to keep breathing. It is one
    of those truisms that is so central as to be largely useless in day to day
    practice. Mostly it misses the real problem, which is not about the eating
    itself, but control over the eating.

    Indeed, in this group and around other people, people can be divided into
    two camps, those who understand the problems of people trying to diet (eat
    less) and those who do not understand what the fuss is about. Just do it (or
    more correctly, don't do it). The second group, usually people who have
    never had a problem with their weight, view it as a simple thing, not worthy
    of the anguish so many of us with weight problem talk about.

    As i began acquiring the ability (through low carb) to control my eating
    more at will, I began developing a theory about the issue that can explain
    one group to another. My background work experience is in the medical field
    with a subset of AI known as Expert Systems, which are specialized computer
    programs that assist in decision. One of the things that fascinates me was
    the expert systems utilized by the brain, and the study of what happens to
    people when one of these systems goes wrong.

    Expert systems in the human brain function just like their computer
    counterparts, they focus on only one task, and bend the consciousness of the
    person towards that task. There are a host of these systems that have been
    identified, and usually one or more of these systems work in opposition to
    one another, and we exist in point of equilibrium between competing systems.

    The classic example of this are two perception expert systems, the first
    that notices things that are different, needing more attention, and the
    opposing one that tries to make sense of everything to prevent needless
    distractions. If something goes wrong with the second system, the person
    will have what is known as blinded sight, where one can see, but cannot
    really make sense of anything they see. If the first system fails, (usually
    as the result of a stroke) a truly spectacular syndrome known as "false
    limb" syndrome can occur. In this syndrome, the victim will not view a limb
    (usually paralzed by the stroke) as their own, and claim it is not theirs,
    or say it is someone elses. The "make sense of it all" intelligence will not
    be held in check by the damaged "hey what is different here?" intelligence
    and will spin out of control ideas to account for the paralysis. What is
    remarkable about this is that the patient is usually completely rational in
    every other sense, can talk intelligently, make other kinds of decisions and
    observations, but in this one thing will say something completely off the
    wall. "that's my brother's arm" where is your brother? "In cleveland". A
    doctor i spoke to one day that had recently seen a case said that it shook
    her whole concept about what conscious intelligence really meant. If
    something as fundamental as our body self recognition could be warped so out
    of control while the rest of our rationality remained intact, she felt that
    she had lost her bearings on what human rationality was.

    What has this to do with dieting? Well, very clearly there is an important
    expert system (or systems) whose main job is to remind us to eat. Given the
    time and planning that went into obtaining food for primative man (requiring
    preparations hours, days or even a year or more in advance), this system is
    fairly involved and must have a significant role in our consciousness. Of
    course, this consciousness has way too much to do when food is as readily
    available as it is these days. Like the stroke victim, it can warp our
    perception and rational thought. I know i have driven home while thinking
    very consciously about what I should eat to maintain my diet, only to get
    home, and before bed, find that I have violated every single rational
    thought i had driving home. Like the stroke victim, what i thought when i
    got those triscuits and peanutbutter made perfect sense at the time.

    Clearly, some people have stronger eating intellegences than others, or
    perhaps some have stronger intellegence systems that keep the eating
    intelligence in check. For me, the low carb diet shut my eating intelligence
    off, and as carbs were added back, brought it back in a much more manageable
    form. As i moved towards a managable diet, I began to see the tricks that
    the eating intelligence would play on me. I began creating work arounds and
    counter-tricks (removing certain foods from the house slowly drinking a
    glass of wine while cooking, etc.) to deal with my eating intelligence.

    So those of you who have no problem with over eating (exactly why are you in
    this group anyway?) should be a bit more understanding, and those who do,
    recognize you are dealing with a very crafty being (yourself) that is next
    to impossible to defeat in its unrestrained form, so weakening, and
    outwitting it is our best bet.

    Bob
    200+/160/160.5
    maint. since 12/09/2003
     
    Tags:


  2. bob

    bob Guest

    "Ignoramus3578" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > I lost 50 lbs by eating less, maintained for 10 months, was at normal
    > weight, my weight was not changing, and yet I was hungry and food
    > obsessed most of the time. It took dropping wheat and starches to stop
    > that.


    "hungry and food obsessed", that says it all. I remember that in the 80's
    and 90s when i did sugar busters and low fat. the most i ever managed to
    lose was 15 pounds, and it began coming back immediately. That you lost 50
    pounds and kept it off for 10 months is an incredible feat in the face of
    that little voice that kept saying...eat eat eat....

    Like you, when i adjusted carbs, the voice went away. (during an extended
    induction, i had to put reminder tasks in my outlook calendar to eat) It was
    a really bizarre experience. Having that drive gone so suddenly and so
    completely actually allowed me to try and sort it out a little and see what
    habits in my behavior and personality were a function of the food drive. I
    attribute my success with the diet to responding to and utilizing that lack
    of hunger mind to create new behaviors and habits (example: as my weight
    dropped, i upped my exercise, pushing the limits now expanded by the feeling
    of lightness that comes with newly lost weight and turning that into habit
    before the feeling went away.) The people i know who succeeded only short
    term with low carb seemed to me to fail to establish new behavior patterns
    during that period when the no hunger sign is out.

    bob
     
  3. Tom

    Tom Guest

    "bob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]outheast.rr.com...
    > "Ignoramus3578" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > > I lost 50 lbs by eating less, maintained for 10 months, was at normal
    > > weight, my weight was not changing, and yet I was hungry and food
    > > obsessed most of the time. It took dropping wheat and starches to stop
    > > that.

    >
    > "hungry and food obsessed", that says it all. I remember that in the 80's
    > and 90s when i did sugar busters and low fat. the most i ever managed to
    > lose was 15 pounds, and it began coming back immediately. That you lost 50
    > pounds and kept it off for 10 months is an incredible feat in the face of
    > that little voice that kept saying...eat eat eat....
    >
    > Like you, when i adjusted carbs, the voice went away. (during an extended
    > induction, i had to put reminder tasks in my outlook calendar to eat) It

    was
    > a really bizarre experience. Having that drive gone so suddenly and so
    > completely actually allowed me to try and sort it out a little and see

    what
    > habits in my behavior and personality were a function of the food drive. I
    > attribute my success with the diet to responding to and utilizing that

    lack
    > of hunger mind to create new behaviors and habits (example: as my weight
    > dropped, i upped my exercise, pushing the limits now expanded by the

    feeling
    > of lightness that comes with newly lost weight and turning that into habit
    > before the feeling went away.) The people i know who succeeded only short
    > term with low carb seemed to me to fail to establish new behavior patterns
    > during that period when the no hunger sign is out.


    Yes, almost everyone I personally know that had lost the weight on
    lo-carb, ended up going back to the old habits. The diet works great. It
    seems that eating this way for the long term is the difficult part.
    Tom
    210/180/180
    >
    > bob
    >
    >
     
  4. bob

    bob Guest

    I second that request.
    as i entered maintenance, i was struck by how little info was available on
    the net about long term low carbing. the studies i read seemed to confirm
    that more people had success losing weight with low carb than had success
    keeping it off. Is low carb more of a weight loss plan than a weight
    maintaining plan? if so what are people transitioning to?

    this is not an academic question for me, i had committed to one year of low
    carb maintenance, no tinkering. that year has passed, and while i feel no
    urge to experiment, the lack of many long termers does give me pause and
    make me wonder if i should be looking at something else.


    "Ignoramus3578" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:42:22 GMT, Tom <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >> "bob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> news:[email protected]
    >>> "Ignoramus3578" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>> news:[email protected]
    >>> > I lost 50 lbs by eating less, maintained for 10 months, was at normal
    >>> > weight, my weight was not changing, and yet I was hungry and food
    >>> > obsessed most of the time. It took dropping wheat and starches to stop
    >>> > that.
    >>>
    >>> "hungry and food obsessed", that says it all. I remember that in the
    >>> 80's
    >>> and 90s when i did sugar busters and low fat. the most i ever managed to
    >>> lose was 15 pounds, and it began coming back immediately. That you lost
    >>> 50
    >>> pounds and kept it off for 10 months is an incredible feat in the face
    >>> of
    >>> that little voice that kept saying...eat eat eat....
    >>>
    >>> Like you, when i adjusted carbs, the voice went away. (during an
    >>> extended
    >>> induction, i had to put reminder tasks in my outlook calendar to eat) It

    >> was
    >>> a really bizarre experience. Having that drive gone so suddenly and so
    >>> completely actually allowed me to try and sort it out a little and see

    >> what
    >>> habits in my behavior and personality were a function of the food drive.
    >>> I
    >>> attribute my success with the diet to responding to and utilizing that

    >> lack
    >>> of hunger mind to create new behaviors and habits (example: as my weight
    >>> dropped, i upped my exercise, pushing the limits now expanded by the

    >> feeling
    >>> of lightness that comes with newly lost weight and turning that into
    >>> habit
    >>> before the feeling went away.) The people i know who succeeded only
    >>> short
    >>> term with low carb seemed to me to fail to establish new behavior
    >>> patterns
    >>> during that period when the no hunger sign is out.

    >>
    >> Yes, almost everyone I personally know that had lost the weight on
    >> lo-carb, ended up going back to the old habits. The diet works great. It
    >> seems that eating this way for the long term is the difficult part.

    >
    > I am curious, can you expand on this a little bit? I am very
    > interested in how to stick to this diet long term, what the challenges
    > are etc. I have been on it for 5 months and so far, it is not
    > difficult. Obviously 5 months does not qualify as long term.
    >
    > --
    > 223/172.2/180
     
  5. "> I noticed that the more heated debate in this group mainly came from
    people
    > who said it was just a matter of eating less, and those who, if they did
    > not flat out disagree, at least tried to say that it was more complicated
    > than that.


    It's not the diet that causes failure, it's the dieter. To me, losing weight
    is simply a means to an end.

    Keeping the weight off---by practicing moderation, and not deprivation, is
    the key.

    The Low Carb Bartender
     
  6. Dave LCHF

    Dave LCHF Guest

    Bob, your post makes my top ten list, and I'm saving it.

    You have a new take on my cardinal view on dieting. My view is that people
    distort their perception of food quantity, when hungry. Your comparison to
    phantom limbs is amazing.

    Thus, willpower fails in the conflict with hunger.

    Strategy: I call the body's regulatory system for calorie intake a "calorie
    thermostat." To lose weight, one must manipulate the calorie thermostat. I
    see two ways to do this. First, is by eating a very low carb and high fat
    diet. This adjusts the thermostat to a lower setting. For the second
    manipulation: I see the calorie thermostat as having two thresholds. If
    one eats low carb high fat (LCHF) to just feel comfortable and satisfied
    with calorie quantity, you are operating at what I will call "thermostat
    threshold A." This will produce slow weightloss for the obese, since the
    LCHF diet has lowered thermostat threshold A. I define calorie "thermostat
    threshold B" as the level where one has made a conscious effort to restrict
    calories, and the calorie thermostat has just kicked in to distort the mind
    to force one to fail at the conscious task of restriction. My second
    strategy of weight control is to live near calorie thermostat threshold B.
    Threshold A works, but threshold B works faster.

    hysteresis : "The lagging of an effect behind its cause."

    The calorie thermostat (at both A & B) has a lot of hysteresis. I estimate
    a 2 to 3 week delay in the pattern of calorie thermostat levels. Thus, if I
    push my calories too low this week, my calorie thermostat thresholds are
    likely to be at higher levels in about a month. Conversely, if I eat an
    extra hundred calories per day this week, the threshold will likely drop by
    as much about a month from now.

    With all this in mind, one must maintain a mild steady effort to reduce
    portions, while allowing a bit of extra food as the hunger crops up.

    IMHO: A single day of increased calories will not disrupt progress as
    measured about 2 months after the event. Thus one can have feast days, and
    still lose weight. However, too many feast days will slow progress long
    term. Having high calorie days about 2 weeks apart, seems to be a workable
    strategy. I like to do this. I suspect that occasional feasting is a
    natural thing, but YMMV.

    copyright 2004 Dave Filice
    http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/LowCarbHighFat/


    "bob" <[email protected]otriad.spamrr.evercom> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > I have been plotting this post for some time, as i made it through my

    first
    > year of maintaining a 40+ pound weight loss.
    >
    > I noticed that the more heated debate in this group mainly came from

    people
    > who said it was just a matter of eating less, and those who, if they did

    not
    > flat out disagree, at least tried to say that it was more complicated than
    > that. As I said once last year, saying that eating less is the key to

    losing
    > weight is like saying the key to not dying is to keep breathing. It is one
    > of those truisms that is so central as to be largely useless in day to day
    > practice. Mostly it misses the real problem, which is not about the eating
    > itself, but control over the eating.
    >
    > Indeed, in this group and around other people, people can be divided into
    > two camps, those who understand the problems of people trying to diet (eat
    > less) and those who do not understand what the fuss is about. Just do it

    (or
    > more correctly, don't do it). The second group, usually people who have
    > never had a problem with their weight, view it as a simple thing, not

    worthy
    > of the anguish so many of us with weight problem talk about.
    >
    > As i began acquiring the ability (through low carb) to control my eating
    > more at will, I began developing a theory about the issue that can explain
    > one group to another. My background work experience is in the medical

    field
    > with a subset of AI known as Expert Systems, which are specialized

    computer
    > programs that assist in decision. One of the things that fascinates me was
    > the expert systems utilized by the brain, and the study of what happens to
    > people when one of these systems goes wrong.
    >
    > Expert systems in the human brain function just like their computer
    > counterparts, they focus on only one task, and bend the consciousness of

    the
    > person towards that task. There are a host of these systems that have been
    > identified, and usually one or more of these systems work in opposition to
    > one another, and we exist in point of equilibrium between competing

    systems.
    >
    > The classic example of this are two perception expert systems, the first
    > that notices things that are different, needing more attention, and the
    > opposing one that tries to make sense of everything to prevent needless
    > distractions. If something goes wrong with the second system, the person
    > will have what is known as blinded sight, where one can see, but cannot
    > really make sense of anything they see. If the first system fails,

    (usually
    > as the result of a stroke) a truly spectacular syndrome known as "false
    > limb" syndrome can occur. In this syndrome, the victim will not view a

    limb
    > (usually paralzed by the stroke) as their own, and claim it is not theirs,
    > or say it is someone elses. The "make sense of it all" intelligence will

    not
    > be held in check by the damaged "hey what is different here?" intelligence
    > and will spin out of control ideas to account for the paralysis. What is
    > remarkable about this is that the patient is usually completely rational

    in
    > every other sense, can talk intelligently, make other kinds of decisions

    and
    > observations, but in this one thing will say something completely off the
    > wall. "that's my brother's arm" where is your brother? "In cleveland". A
    > doctor i spoke to one day that had recently seen a case said that it shook
    > her whole concept about what conscious intelligence really meant. If
    > something as fundamental as our body self recognition could be warped so

    out
    > of control while the rest of our rationality remained intact, she felt

    that
    > she had lost her bearings on what human rationality was.
    >
    > What has this to do with dieting? Well, very clearly there is an important
    > expert system (or systems) whose main job is to remind us to eat. Given

    the
    > time and planning that went into obtaining food for primative man

    (requiring
    > preparations hours, days or even a year or more in advance), this system

    is
    > fairly involved and must have a significant role in our consciousness. Of
    > course, this consciousness has way too much to do when food is as readily
    > available as it is these days. Like the stroke victim, it can warp our
    > perception and rational thought. I know i have driven home while thinking
    > very consciously about what I should eat to maintain my diet, only to get
    > home, and before bed, find that I have violated every single rational
    > thought i had driving home. Like the stroke victim, what i thought when i
    > got those triscuits and peanutbutter made perfect sense at the time.
    >
    > Clearly, some people have stronger eating intellegences than others, or
    > perhaps some have stronger intellegence systems that keep the eating
    > intelligence in check. For me, the low carb diet shut my eating

    intelligence
    > off, and as carbs were added back, brought it back in a much more

    manageable
    > form. As i moved towards a managable diet, I began to see the tricks that
    > the eating intelligence would play on me. I began creating work arounds

    and
    > counter-tricks (removing certain foods from the house slowly drinking a
    > glass of wine while cooking, etc.) to deal with my eating intelligence.
    >
    > So those of you who have no problem with over eating (exactly why are you

    in
    > this group anyway?) should be a bit more understanding, and those who do,
    > recognize you are dealing with a very crafty being (yourself) that is next
    > to impossible to defeat in its unrestrained form, so weakening, and
    > outwitting it is our best bet.
    >
    > Bob
    > 200+/160/160.5
    > maint. since 12/09/2003
    >
    >
     
  7. Tom

    Tom Guest

    "Ignoramus3578" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:42:22 GMT, Tom <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > > "bob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]
    > >> "Ignoramus3578" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >> news:[email protected]
    > >> > I lost 50 lbs by eating less, maintained for 10 months, was at normal
    > >> > weight, my weight was not changing, and yet I was hungry and food
    > >> > obsessed most of the time. It took dropping wheat and starches to

    stop
    > >> > that.
    > >>
    > >> "hungry and food obsessed", that says it all. I remember that in the

    80's
    > >> and 90s when i did sugar busters and low fat. the most i ever managed

    to
    > >> lose was 15 pounds, and it began coming back immediately. That you lost

    50
    > >> pounds and kept it off for 10 months is an incredible feat in the face

    of
    > >> that little voice that kept saying...eat eat eat....
    > >>
    > >> Like you, when i adjusted carbs, the voice went away. (during an

    extended
    > >> induction, i had to put reminder tasks in my outlook calendar to eat)

    It
    > > was
    > >> a really bizarre experience. Having that drive gone so suddenly and so
    > >> completely actually allowed me to try and sort it out a little and see

    > > what
    > >> habits in my behavior and personality were a function of the food

    drive. I
    > >> attribute my success with the diet to responding to and utilizing that

    > > lack
    > >> of hunger mind to create new behaviors and habits (example: as my

    weight
    > >> dropped, i upped my exercise, pushing the limits now expanded by the

    > > feeling
    > >> of lightness that comes with newly lost weight and turning that into

    habit
    > >> before the feeling went away.) The people i know who succeeded only

    short
    > >> term with low carb seemed to me to fail to establish new behavior

    patterns
    > >> during that period when the no hunger sign is out.

    > >
    > > Yes, almost everyone I personally know that had lost the weight on
    > > lo-carb, ended up going back to the old habits. The diet works great. It
    > > seems that eating this way for the long term is the difficult part.

    >
    > I am curious, can you expand on this a little bit? I am very
    > interested in how to stick to this diet long term, what the challenges
    > are etc. I have been on it for 5 months and so far, it is not
    > difficult. Obviously 5 months does not qualify as long term.
    >
    > --
    > 223/172.2/180


    I agree Ig. I have asked my friends what has happened. For some reason,
    they feel that they are missing out on too many food choices not available
    to them on lo-carb. I have tried to explain to them that it seems a good way
    to eat and that I have not experienced the same problem. They did not have
    any medical problems that I'm aware of. Perhaps they did not benefit from it
    as much as others have, so they don't have added rewards to stick with it.
    My acid reflux is totally gone. Shoulder joint aches are gone as well.
    Maybe, if all I had gotten was weight loss, then I may have been more
    inclined to think this is only a temporary way to eat until the goal is
    achieved. They have stated though, that it is a good way to lose weight if
    they need to do it again. So are they going down the same paths as other
    diets? Only eat the way it says until the weight is gone and then it's back
    to the way it was? I'm confused about it myself. If the diet works so well,
    then why wouldn't people stick to it long term? One other thing. Some of
    them still think that carbs are very important to a proper diet. Even though
    they had eaten lo-carb for 3 to 6 months. I think I'm missing something. I
    don't see it as they do. To me, it is healthy, and I intend to keep eating
    like this.
    Tom
     
  8. Tom

    Tom Guest

    "Ignoramus3578" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 18:21:33 GMT, Tom <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > "Ignoramus3578" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >> I am curious, can you expand on this a little bit? I am very
    > >> interested in how to stick to this diet long term, what the challenges
    > >> are etc. I have been on it for 5 months and so far, it is not
    > >> difficult. Obviously 5 months does not qualify as long term.
    > >>

    > >
    > > I agree Ig. I have asked my friends what has happened. For some
    > > reason, they feel that they are missing out on too many food choices
    > > not available to them on lo-carb. I have tried to explain to them
    > > that it seems a good way to eat and that I have not experienced the
    > > same problem.

    >
    > Personally, I am not constrained by say having to travel. So I cook
    > for myself whatever I want, or eat out (we have a grilled chicken
    > place). Visiting friends etc, can sometimes be quite a strain on the
    > diet though.
    >
    > > They did not have any medical problems that I'm aware of. Perhaps
    > > they did not benefit from it as much as others have, so they don't
    > > have added rewards to stick with it. My acid reflux is totally
    > > gone. Shoulder joint aches are gone as well.

    >
    > My acid reflux went away as soon as I started eating less, even before
    > low carbing, but it took going low carb to get rid of knee pain.


    Perhaps the amount of benefits plays a major role in whether a person
    decides to change lifestyle for the rest of their life.
    >
    >
    > --
    > 223/172.4/180
     
  9. bob

    bob Guest

    Tom, I don't see any conceptual problem with a diet being a good way to lose
    weight only. The problem is, as this thread has mentioned, there seems to be
    very little data to go on.

    While I and others feel better on low carb, to be fair, it is far more
    likely that the good feeling is the weight loss we recently experienced (and
    or the increased exercise). We must be careful to sep. the effects of the
    weight loss and the effects of low carb. The only way to know for sure is to
    plan and execute a "normal" maintenance diet and see how we feel. I am not
    ready to do this yet, but am thinking about it. My main concern would be:
    are all the hunger cravings going to come back and will i be able to manage
    them. The secondary concer would be whether i have any other health effects
    (cholesterol, joint pain etc)

    I have not felt like I am "missing out" on a lot of good foods. I love to
    cook, and cook things that taste great and are low carb. Deserts were never
    the main problem for me, even though i like them, at least while on low
    carb, the temptation has been easy to resist. Portions and snacking were the
    issue. I was convinced that sugar was a pervasive problem before i started
    low carb and remain convinced. I view my refusal to buy any food ingredient
    that has more than 3 grams of sugar as a perm change not subject to
    negotiation. the carbs I have added back are whole grain, and low volume. I
    did have 2 red lobster refined flour cheese buscuits when i took my college
    student daughter out to eat the other day, and expect that that kind of
    infrequent, low level "feasting" will be part of my routine in the future. I
    just still fear at this point that if i had a carb bomb like that every
    night with supper, that the hunger and the portions would begin increasing.



    "Tom" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:Ng%[email protected]
    > achieved. They have stated though, that it is a good way to lose weight if
    > they need to do it again. So are they going down the same paths as other
    > diets? Only eat the way it says until the weight is gone and then it's
    > back
    > to the way it was? I'm confused about it myself. If the diet works so
    > well,
    > then why wouldn't people stick to it long term? One other thing. Some of
    > them still think that carbs are very important to a proper diet. Even
    > though
    > they had eaten lo-carb for 3 to 6 months. I think I'm missing something. I
    > don't see it as they do. To me, it is healthy, and I intend to keep eating
    > like this.
    > Tom
    >
    >
     

  10. > IMHO: A single day of increased calories will not disrupt progress as
    > measured about 2 months after the event. Thus one can have feast days,
    > and
    > still lose weight.


    It's like the old story of the kid whose mother says he can't have a cookie
    before dinner. She walks out of the kitchen, he climbs up on the counter and
    gorges on the entire contents of the cookie jar. Why? Because he was told he
    couldn't have one cookie.

    It boils down to moderation, and not deprivation.

    The Low Carb Bartender
     
  11. MU

    MU Guest

    On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:42:22 GMT, Tom wrote:

    > Yes, almost everyone I personally know that had lost the weight on
    > lo-carb, ended up going back to the old habits. The diet works great. It
    > seems that eating this way for the long term is the difficult part.


    That's because nothing really changed.
     
  12. bob

    bob Guest

    It would be inaccurate to say nothing changed. Something did change (weight,
    waistlines). the problem seems to be that behaviors and habits did not
    change.

    "MU" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:42:22 GMT, Tom wrote:
    >
    >> Yes, almost everyone I personally know that had lost the weight on
    >> lo-carb, ended up going back to the old habits. The diet works great. It
    >> seems that eating this way for the long term is the difficult part.

    >
    > That's because nothing really changed.
     
  13. bob

    bob Guest

    you are right, your experience fits the test model...and is a worthwhile
    data point.



    "Ignoramus3578" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 19:37:30 GMT, bob <[email protected]>
    > wrote:
    >> Tom, I don't see any conceptual problem with a diet being a good way to
    >> lose
    >> weight only. The problem is, as this thread has mentioned, there seems to
    >> be
    >> very little data to go on.
    >>
    >> While I and others feel better on low carb, to be fair, it is far more
    >> likely that the good feeling is the weight loss we recently experienced
    >> (and
    >> or the increased exercise).

    >
    > My low carbing was a much cleaner experiment than the experience of
    > most other people here.
    >
    > I did NOT lose weight on low carb. I lost weight by eating less.
    >
    > I switched to LC at normal weight. I have not lost a single pound on
    > LC. I started LC at 172.586 7 day average weight, and am now at
    > 172.400 7 day average weight. 0.186 lbs lost in 5 months. I am fine
    > with that.
    >
    > The only improvement that LC brought about, was cessation of knee pain
    > that I had. I suspect that it is the result of giving up grains.
    >
    > Effect of eating less and losing weight was dramatic: I have no more
    > heartburn, no more colds, no more jock itch, better and less sleep, no
    > more tired feet, I could go on forever. I also perform better in bed
    > than 1.5 years ago.
    >
    > LC did not reverse any of these improvements, but it also stopped knee
    > pain.
    >
    >> We must be careful to sep. the effects of the weight loss and the
    >> effects of low carb. The only way to know for sure is to plan and
    >> execute a "normal" maintenance diet and see how we feel. I am not
    >> ready to do this yet, but am thinking about it.

    >
    > I have done just that, in reverse.
    >
    >> My main concern would be: are all the hunger cravings going to come
    >> back

    >
    > Probably.
    >
    >> and will i be able to manage them.

    >
    > Not known, but what helped me slightly was eating a lot of vegetables.
    >
    >> The secondary concer would be whether i have any other health
    >> effects (cholesterol, joint pain etc)

    >
    > Check and see.
    >
    >> I have not felt like I am "missing out" on a lot of good foods. I
    >> love to cook, and cook things that taste great and are low
    >> carb. Deserts were never the main problem for me, even though i like
    >> them, at least while on low carb, the temptation has been easy to
    >> resist. Portions and snacking were the issue. I was convinced that
    >> sugar was a pervasive problem before i started low carb and remain
    >> convinced.

    >
    > It agrees with my experiences. I also completely banned sugar from my
    > life, except in minute quantities. (like herring).
    >
    > --
    > 223/172.4/180
     
  14. Roger Zoul

    Roger Zoul Guest

    The Low-Carb Bartender wrote:
    ::: IMHO: A single day of increased calories will not disrupt progress
    ::: as measured about 2 months after the event. Thus one can have
    ::: feast days, and
    ::: still lose weight.
    ::
    :: It's like the old story of the kid whose mother says he can't have a
    :: cookie before dinner. She walks out of the kitchen, he climbs up on
    :: the counter and gorges on the entire contents of the cookie jar.
    :: Why? Because he was told he couldn't have one cookie.
    ::
    :: It boils down to moderation, and not deprivation.

    But most of us "naturally fat" people know nothing of moderation. So, if it
    boils down to moderation, how are we supposed to be able to reach that
    state? IMO, this is just like saying "eat less".
     
  15. Tom

    Tom Guest

    "Ignoramus3578" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 19:15:19 GMT, Tom <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >>
    > >> My acid reflux went away as soon as I started eating less, even before
    > >> low carbing, but it took going low carb to get rid of knee pain.

    > >
    > > Perhaps the amount of benefits plays a major role in whether a

    person
    > > decides to change lifestyle for the rest of their life.

    >
    > I do not yet know if I will keep this lifestyle for the rest of my
    > life; I will only keep it for as long as it makes sense.


    I definitely agree. If for some reason it is proven that the way I'm
    eating is dangerous, I would not hesitate to change my diet. Despite vastly
    different opinions about the diet, I don't see any evidence of it being
    harmful. So far, I have only seen good health from it. I can't see going
    back to eating large amounts of junk food no matter what the change would be
    in the end though. Time will tell.


    Benefits
    > definitely do play but, also, I think that different people have a
    > varying degree to which they would attempt to finish what they
    > started. Some are like bulldogs and some are like butterflies.


    I suppose everyone has their own methods and reasons why they choose to
    do things in a certain pattern.
    Tom
    >
    >
    > --
    > 223/172.4/180
     
  16. Tom

    Tom Guest

    "bob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Tom, I don't see any conceptual problem with a diet being a good way to

    lose
    > weight only. The problem is, as this thread has mentioned, there seems to

    be
    > very little data to go on.


    Right. There is a lot of conflicting info that a person has to wade
    through. And the only problem I see with someone only using the diet for
    weight loss, is that they may end up yo-yo dieting and could possibly worse
    off in the end. If A person can maintain with eating a different way after
    the weight is gone, I see know problem.
    >
    > While I and others feel better on low carb, to be fair, it is far more
    > likely that the good feeling is the weight loss we recently experienced

    (and
    > or the increased exercise). We must be careful to sep. the effects of the
    > weight loss and the effects of low carb. The only way to know for sure is

    to
    > plan and execute a "normal" maintenance diet and see how we feel. I am not
    > ready to do this yet, but am thinking about it. My main concern would be:
    > are all the hunger cravings going to come back and will i be able to

    manage
    > them. The secondary concer would be whether i have any other health

    effects
    > (cholesterol, joint pain etc)


    You are correct. It's not like I did a scientific study on myself. When
    I was at normal weight up to my middle 30's, I had no problem with acid
    reflux. The shear weight itself of the stomach area being pulled to one side
    may be in fact a greater influence than the diet itself. Because the
    problems disappeared at the same time it is difficult to know for sure. I
    did some experiments in the earlier stage of the diet to see if wheat
    products were the key. I did suffer from heartburn that night. But, thinking
    back, it is possible that I ate to much at the time and that could be the
    problem. My achy shoulders could even have been attributed to increased fat
    causing decrease of motion and also lack of muscle around the joint could
    have been a problem. Even in simple observations, there could be many
    variations. I can not deny that one possiblity is better than another. All I
    can say is that I feel good right now and I have no physical ailments due to
    the way I eat. Is it just the weightloss itself? It's very possible.
    >
    > I have not felt like I am "missing out" on a lot of good foods. I love to
    > cook, and cook things that taste great and are low carb. Deserts were

    never
    > the main problem for me, even though i like them, at least while on low
    > carb, the temptation has been easy to resist. Portions and snacking were

    the
    > issue. I was convinced that sugar was a pervasive problem before i started
    > low carb and remain convinced. I view my refusal to buy any food

    ingredient
    > that has more than 3 grams of sugar as a perm change not subject to
    > negotiation. the carbs I have added back are whole grain, and low volume.

    I
    > did have 2 red lobster refined flour cheese buscuits when i took my

    college
    > student daughter out to eat the other day, and expect that that kind of
    > infrequent, low level "feasting" will be part of my routine in the future.

    I
    > just still fear at this point that if i had a carb bomb like that every
    > night with supper, that the hunger and the portions would begin

    increasing.

    Increased hunger after not being as strict will be my fear. So far my
    weight is managable and I like that my food choices are not sweet. My energy
    levels 'feel to me' to be stable and I really like that. It suits my
    lifestyle as well. I don't care to be super happy, and I don't like being as
    far down either. I don't feel the need at this point to increase carb
    levels. If I increase my activity level even more, I may find I need to, but
    so far it hasn't been a problem. I will monitor my overall health after
    another year or 2, as well as medical check-ups to be certain that I'm not
    harming myself. Either way, I'm willing to risk my life if it means I'm
    making an investment for my upcoming old age. It certainly is not worse than
    what I was doing before. It could be that if a diet is higher in fat(even
    though it's lo-carb) and there is a huge amount of weight gain, it's
    possible that a person may have been better off gaining the weight with
    carbs. Would the arteries clog up more? I'm just speculating here on the
    next thing to try and find any evidence on. By the way, your original post
    was an interesting read.
    Tom
    >
    >
    >
    > "Tom" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:Ng%[email protected]
    > > achieved. They have stated though, that it is a good way to lose weight

    if
    > > they need to do it again. So are they going down the same paths as other
    > > diets? Only eat the way it says until the weight is gone and then it's
    > > back
    > > to the way it was? I'm confused about it myself. If the diet works so
    > > well,
    > > then why wouldn't people stick to it long term? One other thing. Some of
    > > them still think that carbs are very important to a proper diet. Even
    > > though
    > > they had eaten lo-carb for 3 to 6 months. I think I'm missing something.

    I
    > > don't see it as they do. To me, it is healthy, and I intend to keep

    eating
    > > like this.
    > > Tom
    > >
    > >

    >
    >
     
  17. Tom

    Tom Guest

    "Ignoramus3578" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 20:42:09 GMT, Tom <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > > "Ignoramus3578" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]
    > >> On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 19:15:19 GMT, Tom <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >> >>
    > >> >> My acid reflux went away as soon as I started eating less, even

    before
    > >> >> low carbing, but it took going low carb to get rid of knee pain.
    > >> >
    > >> > Perhaps the amount of benefits plays a major role in whether a

    > > person
    > >> > decides to change lifestyle for the rest of their life.
    > >>
    > >> I do not yet know if I will keep this lifestyle for the rest of my
    > >> life; I will only keep it for as long as it makes sense.

    > >
    > > I definitely agree. If for some reason it is proven that the way I'm
    > > eating is dangerous, I would not hesitate to change my diet. Despite

    vastly
    > > different opinions about the diet, I don't see any evidence of it being
    > > harmful. So far, I have only seen good health from it. I can't see going
    > > back to eating large amounts of junk food no matter what the change

    would be
    > > in the end though. Time will tell.

    >
    > I am wondering if you are familiar with personality typing and whether
    > you read Keirsey's Please Understand Me II. Specifically, do you think
    > that you belong to the Rational category.


    I have never heard of it. I'll google it and see if I can come up with
    something. Or, if you have a link to something on line? I would be
    interested to read it.
    Tom
    >
    > --
    > 223/172.4/180
     
  18. "> :: It boils down to moderation, and not deprivation.
    >
    > But most of us "naturally fat" people know nothing of moderation. So, if
    > it
    > boils down to moderation, how are we supposed to be able to reach that
    > state? IMO, this is just like saying "eat less".


    It's called personal responsibility. Start dealing with it, like dropping
    the weak excuse of being "naturally fat."
     

  19. >
    > I am with you here. It is hard for me to do moderation, and I am a
    > naturally fat person also. So, Itry to stick to some plan that does
    > not require moderation.


    Well then, just keep eating away, gourging when you want, and you'll still
    be posting your woes here years from now.
     
  20. Tom

    Tom Guest

    "Ignoramus3578" <ignoramus35[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 20:42:09 GMT, Tom <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > > "Ignoramus3578" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]
    > >> On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 19:15:19 GMT, Tom <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >> >>
    > >> >> My acid reflux went away as soon as I started eating less, even

    before
    > >> >> low carbing, but it took going low carb to get rid of knee pain.
    > >> >
    > >> > Perhaps the amount of benefits plays a major role in whether a

    > > person
    > >> > decides to change lifestyle for the rest of their life.
    > >>
    > >> I do not yet know if I will keep this lifestyle for the rest of my
    > >> life; I will only keep it for as long as it makes sense.

    > >
    > > I definitely agree. If for some reason it is proven that the way I'm
    > > eating is dangerous, I would not hesitate to change my diet. Despite

    vastly
    > > different opinions about the diet, I don't see any evidence of it being
    > > harmful. So far, I have only seen good health from it. I can't see going
    > > back to eating large amounts of junk food no matter what the change

    would be
    > > in the end though. Time will tell.

    >
    > I am wondering if you are familiar with personality typing and whether
    > you read Keirsey's Please Understand Me II. Specifically, do you think
    > that you belong to the Rational category.


    Hmm. I went to the website. I guess it would have to be a combination of
    rational and idealist. I have varied interests and do like to find out the
    truth about whatever I can. To give an example; I have a guide that was
    written based on military backcountry survival. In it, it states that if you
    were to eat snow, you would become dehydrated and die. Sure enough, some
    digging around at the library revealed that some people do believe this
    because snow melts down to 1/10th it's original size when melted. And
    something to do about energy required would cause a water deficit. I've
    mentioned it to some, and in fact some do believe it. It does not make sense
    to me that it is that way. Other people may be happy with this info. I do
    not believe it. And I'm not scared to be vocal about it even if I am in
    error. But throughout history there are examples like this kind of
    information that were believed for years, but then ended up being wrong. I
    think this is one of them.
    http://www.nicomeklscouting.ca/program/thingsdo/wintquiz.pdf

    As for the idealist side of me, I tend to think I like to help people get
    through life and do not like to see anyone suffer. But I'm not a social
    worker type person. So it's a smaller part of me I guess than the rational
    part. Even though some on this board may not feel that I am rational at
    times bacause I don't always agree with what they say. :)
    Tom
    >
    > --
    > 223/172.4/180
     
Loading...