The Effects of Mountain Biking on Wildlife and People -- Why Off-Road Bicycling Should be Prohibited

Discussion in 'rec.bicycles.soc' started by Mike Vandeman, Jun 23, 2004.

  1. The Effects of Mountain Biking on Wildlife and People --
    Why Off-Road Bicycling Should be Prohibited
    Michael J. Vandeman, Ph.D.
    May 31, 1997

    Mountain biking is a relatively new sport. According to a
    mountain biking (MTB) web page (http://www.mtb-bike.com), "The
    commercial Mountain Bike evolution didn't start until 1974 and its
    first production bikes didn't appear in stores until about 10 years
    later". (Lower gearing, fat, knobby tires, sturdier construction,
    but particularly the sealed bearing -- which could be ridden in
    dirt without getting destroyed -- are what made "mountain" (off-
    road) bicycling possible.) Partly for this reason, and partly
    because the MTB is, from one point of view, just a special case of
    an ORV (off-road vehicle), environmentalists and scientists have
    been slow to study and recognize the special threat that the
    mountain bike represents to wildlife. Although there are many
    studies of ORVs, I am not aware of any solid scientific studies
    specifically on MTBs and their effects on wildlife.

    To most environmentalists, bicycles have always been the
    epitome of good. We are so used to comparing bikes to cars, that it
    never occurred to us that the bicycle would be ever used for
    anything bad. Indeed, replacing motor vehicles with bicycles
    deserves our adoration. But anything can be used for good or evil,
    and using bikes to expand human domination of wildlife habitat is
    clearly harmful.

    Human beings think they own every square inch of the Earth,
    and that they therefore have the right to do what they want with
    it. This is, of course, absurd. It is also the reason that we are
    losing species at an unforgivable rate: we have crowded wildlife
    out of its habitat. Even in our parks, where we have vowed to
    protect wildlife, it is not protected from hikers, equestrians,
    park "managers", firefighters, mountain bikers, airplanes,
    helicopters, cars, roads, concessionaires, or biologists. Thus, the
    primary reason that mountain bikes are harmful to wildlife is that
    they, like other technological aids (cars, skis, rafts, rock-
    climbing equipment, etc.), make it much easier for people to get
    into wildlife habitat.

    (Sadly, most people have forgotten that the only thing that
    makes parks worth visiting is the wildlife that live there: it is
    _____
    precisely the wildlife (and paucity of humans) that make a park a
    _________________________________________________________________
    park. Without wildlife (i.e., all nonhuman, nondomesticated species
    ____
    -- plants as well as animals), the parks would be boring piles of
    bare rock.)

    Biology
    _______

    First and most obvious, mountain bikes kill organisms that
    live on and under the soil: "When it comes to pure recreational
    destructiveness, ... off-road vehicles (ORVs) far surpass
    powerboats. ... It is a rare environment indeed where a vehicle can
    be taken off-road without damage. ... Standard ORVs with their
    knobby tires are almost ideal devices for smashing plant life and
    destroying soil. Even driven with extreme care, a dirt bike will
    degrade about an acre of land in a twenty-mile drive. ... Not only
    do the ORVs exterminate animals by exterminating plants, they
    attack them directly as well. Individual animals on the surface and
    in shallow burrows ... are crushed. ... One great problem with ORVs
    ___________________________
    is that they supply easy access to wilderness areas for
    _______________________________________________________
    unsupervised people who have ... no conception of the damage they
    _________________________________________________________________
    are doing" (Ehrlich and Ehrlich, pp.169-171; emphasis added).
    _________
    (Although mountain bikes were hardly known when this was written,
    it is obvious that the same applies to them.)


    Recently, one of the largest Alameda whipsnakes (a California
    threatened species) ever found was killed by a mountain biker in
    Black Diamond Mines Regional Preserve near here. Others have been
    killed on other East Bay regional parks. Kathryn Phillips in
    Tracking the Vanishing Frogs described how ORVs crossing creeks
    ____________________________
    crush toads and their eggs (both buried in the sand). Bikes are
    generally ridden too fast to avoid killing small animals.
    Obviously, the animals didn't evolve in the presence of mountain
    bikes, and can't be expected to deal very effectively with such
    quiet, fast-moving objects. Even hikers can kill small animals, if
    they aren't careful. The one time I went to look for an Alameda
    whipsnake, I almost stepped on one, which was lying in grass
    growing in the trail, and didn't move until I had almost stepped on
    it.

    Soils are extremely complex communities of living organisms.
    They sometimes are very fragile and once destroyed take decades to
    be recreated (e.g. desert cryptogamic soil). Soil destruction is
    hastened by acceleration (braking, speeding up, climbing, and
    turning, which apply horizontal forces to the soil), by tire lugs,
    which break the surface, and by water, which softens the soil and
    makes it easier to demolish.

    In the Golden Gate National Recreation Area (GGNRA), "park
    officials noted serious erosion problems on certain steep narrow
    trails and determined that restricting bicycle use would slow such
    erosion. [They] noted that on narrow trails bicyclists passing
    other users would either leave the trail or force the other users
    off the trail to the detriment of off-trail vegetation and
    wildlife. ... Downhill bicycle travel on steep slopes is usually
    accompanied by braking and often by skidding which tends to push
    dislodged surface gravels into ditches, water bars, and drains.
    Heavy bicycle use on steep trails usually requires that these
    ditches, water bars, and drains be cleared more frequently than
    those used by hikers and equestrians only. ... Park staff and
    visitors reported that bicyclists on these ... trails often skidded
    to control their speed, slid off of trails on sharp turns, or cut
    across off-trail areas at certain 'switch-backs'" (Bicycle Trails
    Council of Marin v. Bruce Babbitt).

    Mud containing seeds and spores sticks to bike tires, thereby
    often carrying species of plants into areas where they had not
    existed (becoming "exotics"). This is worsened by the fact that
    bicycles travel long distances, and are often carried to distant
    locations (sometimes even foreign countries) by motor vehicle. It
    is well known that such exotic species can cause havoc when
    introduced into new habitats.

    Most of us were raised to believe that "non-consumptive"
    recreation is harmless to wildlife. We are taught to enjoy
    ourselves in nature, guilt-free, as long as we don't directly harm
    wildlife. However, recent research, and the huge scale of current
    recreation activities, have discredited this idea. "Traditionally,
    observing, feeding, and photographing wildlife were considered to
    be 'nonconsumptive' activities because removal of animals from
    their natural habitats did not occur.... nonconsumptive wildlife
    recreation was considered relatively benign in terms of its effects
    on wildlife; today, however, there is a growing recognition that
    wildlife-viewing recreation can have serious negative impacts on
    wildlife" (Knight & Gutzwiller, p.257).

    In other words, the mere presence of people is often harmful
    ________
    to wildlife, and the more, the worse. "The notion that recreation
    has no environmental impacts is no longer tenable. Recreationists
    often degrade the land, water, and wildlife resources that support

    their activities by simplifying plant communities, increasing
    animal mortality, displacing and disturbing wildlife, and
    distributing refuse" (ibid, p.3) "Recreational disturbance has
    traditionally been viewed as most detrimental to wildlife during
    the breeding season. Recently, it has become apparent that
    disturbance outside of the animal's breeding season may have
    equally severe effects" (p.73) "People have an impact on wildlife
    habitat and all that depends on it, no matter what the activity"
    (p.157); "Perhaps the major way that people have influenced
    wildlife populations is through encroachment into wildlife areas"
    (p.160). "Outdoor recreation has been recognized as an important
    factor that can reduce biosphere sustainability.... Indeed,
    recreational activities, including many that may seem innocuous,
    can alter vertebrate behaviour, reproduction, distributions, and
    habitats" (p.169).

    Knight & Gutzwiller's book contains numerous specific examples
    of how these negative effects are created. We may not know what the
    organisms are thinking, but the effect is that they die, are forced
    to expend extra energy that may be in short supply, become more
    susceptible to predation, or are forced to move to less suitable
    habitat, losing access to preferred foods, mates, nesting sites,
    etc. Since most of us live safely in the midst of plenty, it is
    hard for us to understand wildlife's predicament. We are flexible
    enough to survive almost anywhere; they are not. Often they have no
    other place to live. None of the existing "studies" on mountain
    biking evaluate its effects on wildlife. They are usually concerned
    only with visible effects on the trail. In Tilden Regional Park,
    there are three separate, heavily used mountain biking trails
    through the middle of supposedly protected Alameda whipsnake
    habitat areas!

    "Displaced animals are forced out of familiar habitat and must
    then survive and reproduce in areas where they are not familiar
    with the locations of food, shelter, and other vital resources....
    Hammitt and Cole ... ranked displacement as being more detrimental
    to wildlife than harassment or recreation-induced habitat
    changes.... Densities ... of 13 breeding bird species were
    negatively associated with the intensity of recreation activity by
    park visitors, primarily pedestrians and cyclists" (ibid, pp.173-
    4); "off-road vehicles can collapse burrows of desert mammals and
    reptiles" (p.176).

    Sociology
    _________

    Hikers, especially the elderly, have been abandoning their
    favorite trails, due to bikers that scare them, hit them, harass
    them, and destroy the serenity of the parks. Parks are supposed to
    be a refuge from the crush of humanity and the noise, danger, and
    artificiality of urban areas. Why bring to our parks the very
    _______________________________
    things that most people go there to escape?! There is absolutely
    ____________________________________________
    nothing wrong with bicycling, in its proper setting (on a road). It
    is a wonderfully healthful activity. But wildlife is already in
    _______
    danger due to loss of habitat (worldwide, one quarter of all
    animals are threatend with extinction, according to the IUCN
    (International Union for the Conservation of Nature and Natural
    Resources)). It can't afford to lose any more. And people have very
    similar needs for being in nature. Our elderly are like wildlife,
    in that they have nowhere else to go for the experience of nature
    that they are accustomed to.

    By definition, hiking trails are the minimum size necessary
    for a person to hike (approx. 18 inches wide), since they are
    supposed to have a minimal impact on the environment. They aren't
    wide enough for a bicyclist to safely pass a hiker or another
    bicyclist. Mixing bikers and hikers is dangerous for both. In fact,

    mountain biking is also dangerous for lone riders, since hiking
    trails don't follow a predictable pattern and have very short sight
    distances (the distance that one can see ahead on the trail).
    Emergency room doctors report that a large percentage of mountain
    bikers incur serious accidents.

    "The record includes hundreds of letters from park users
    recounting stories of collisions or near misses with speeding or
    reckless bicyclists on all kinds of trails but particularly on
    steep and narrow trails. Hikers and bird watchers repeatedly told
    how they have been forced off of trails by speeding bicycles and
    how they have had their peace and solitude on the trails
    interrupted by bicycles that -- because they are quiet and fast --
    seemed to appear out of nowhere and be immediately upon the hikers
    and other users. Equestrians told how their horses have been
    startled by speeding or oncoming bicycles and have become restless,
    on several occasions even throwing and injuring experienced riders.
    Though most users admitted that the great majority of bicyclists
    were polite and safety-conscious, letters from hikers, equestrians,
    bird watchers, joggers, and other users also repeatedly recounted
    incidents of rudeness, threats, and altercations when they have
    complained to an offending bicyclist about dangerous conduct. Park
    staff also reported having received such complaints. ... NPS's
    [National Park Service's] finding that user conflict and visitor
    danger would be reduced by limiting bicycle trail access in GGNRA
    was supported by ample evidence. ... Notwithstanding the
    responsible user, bicycles are often perceived by other users as a
    disruptive influence on park trails. Although most of the few
    reported bicycle accidents in the park involve only single
    individuals, letters and reports from hikers and equestrians tell
    of many close calls and confrontational and unsettling
    experiences". "No single-track trails [in the Marin Headlands] were
    found suitable for bicycle use" (Bicycle Trails Council v. Bruce
    Babbitt).

    Since bicycles require wider trails, parks now often use
    bulldozers to create and maintain those trails, vastly increasing
    their impacts. In Claremont Canyon Regional Preserve in Oakland,
    California, a new trail was created by means of a "small" (6 foot
    blade) bulldozer. But it rolled off the trail and had to be rescued
    by a much bigger bulldozer. The existence of bicyclists on trails
    also forces park rangers to police the trails using motor vehicles
    (cars or motorcycles), since it is the only way they can hope to
    catch them! This also increases negative impacts on wildlife.

    Children learn mostly nonverbally (by watching adults and
    other children). Mountain biking is bad role modeling for them,
    since it teaches them that human domination and destruction of
    wildlife habitat is normal and acceptable.

    Mountain bikers like to claim that excluding them from trails
    constitutes "discrimination". They say that other user groups
    (hikers and equestrians) receive better treatment from land
    managers. There is no basis for such a claim, since all users are
    subject to exactly the same rules. For example, on a trail closed
    to bikes, everyone is allowed on the trail -- only the bikes are
    ________ _____
    excluded! In spite of what they claim, mountain bikers have never
    ______
    been excluded from any trail! Even if my way of "enjoying" the
    wilderness is to race my bulldozer there, I am not allowed to do
    that. And this is not because land managers like hikers more than
    bulldozer racers. I am not being excluded from the wilderness; I
    can go there whenever I want, as long as I don't try to bring my
    __________________________________
     
    Tags:


  2. Chris

    Chris Guest

    >
    > Vandeman, Michael J., Ph.D.
    > http://www.imaja.com/change/environment/mvarticles/
    >
    > ===
    > I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    > humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    > years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)


    I am working on greating a newsgroup that is off limits to Mike Vandeman.
    Want to help?
     
  3. Chris

    Chris Guest

    > Vandeman, Michael J., Ph.D.
    > http://www.imaja.com/change/environment/mvarticles/
    >
    > ===
    > I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    > humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    > years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)


    I am working on creating a newsgroup that is off limits to Mike Vandeman.
    Want to help?
     
  4. cc

    cc Guest

    "Chris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > > Vandeman, Michael J., Ph.D.
    > > http://www.imaja.com/change/environment/mvarticles/
    > >
    > > ===
    > > I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    > > humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    > > years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    >
    > I am working on creating a newsgroup that is off limits to Mike Vandeman.
    > Want to help?
    >


    Just tell me where to send the check.
     
  5. On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 04:27:31 GMT, "Chris" <[email protected]> wrote:

    ..>
    ..> Vandeman, Michael J., Ph.D.
    ..> http://www.imaja.com/change/environment/mvarticles/
    ..>
    ..> ===
    ..> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    ..> humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    ..> years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
    ..
    ..I am working on greating a newsgroup that is off limits to Mike Vandeman.
    ..Want to help?

    It's already been done: rec.bicycles.off-road. It's inhabited by about two
    people.
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
     
  6. On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 01:20:01 -0700, "cc" <[email protected]> wrote:

    ..
    .."Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    ..news:[email protected]
    ..> On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 00:21:05 -0400, "tcmedara"
    ..<[email protected]>
    ..> wrote:
    ..>
    ..> .S o r n i <[email protected]> wrote:
    ..> .> davidmc wrote:
    ..> .>> Mike Vandeman wrote:
    ..> .>
    ..> .> {I will snip it now -- see how that works?!??!?!?#(*&#[email protected]*@!)}
    ..> .>
    ..> .>> unfortunately, brevity is not your "strong suit". R U saying that U R
    ..> .>> against mountainbiking? Sacriledge!!! Surely U jest, am i right? You
    ..> .>> may have thought this was the Sierra Club forum ( a good org. which i
    ..> .>> support, by the way ) but this is hardly the forum 4 this kind of
    ..> .>> preaching, if i'm not mistaken. I wonder how many mountainbikes it
    ..> .>> would take 2 match the footprint of a Hummer- the governors. I think
    ..> .>> he has
    ..> .>> more than one.:mad:
    ..> .>
    ..> .> OK, let me get this straight: you RE-POST the eco-nut's ENTIRE
    ..> .> DRIBBLY DIATRIBE, and then comment on his BREVITY?!?!?
    ..> .>
    ..> .> You, McSir, are an even bigger idiot than he.
    ..> .>
    ..> .> Bill "impressed, mightily" S.
    ..> .
    ..> .I was gonna comment on the same thing earlier, but I knew I had to live
    ..this
    ..> .one for you, Bill. I'm not even sure why I even look at these MV threads
    ..> .anymore, sorta like not being able to look away from the car wreck, even
    ..> .after you've seen all you care to see.
    ..>
    ..> Mountain bikers havd no self-control, or they wouldn't be addicted.
    ..>
    ..
    ..I'm not sure exactly who you think you are, but it must hard to make friends
    ..when you are clearly so superior to everybody.

    I'm not the least bit superior. I just tell the truth, something you should try.

    ..It's too bad, Mike. Not just for you. I mean, you obviously are in a bad
    ..place if you continue to post here. You must realize that you're not
    ..reaching anybody, yet you continue. Which means that you really don't have
    ..anything better to do, enjoy the abuse, or like patronizing others to make
    ..yourself feel better.
    ..
    ..I think the worst part, though, is that your ilk give environmental
    ..advocates a bad name. I am a very green person,

    How do you express that? By MOUNTAIN BIKING????

    and believe you are truly
    ..destructive to the goals of those who seek positive reform through the
    ..promotion of awareness. It's amazing that this is (supposedly) what you care
    ..about, yet your actions are free of understanding or compassion. Being a
    ..reactionary (or fascist, more like it) clearly isn't progressive.
    ..
    ..Have you ever tried responding to any of these emails (aka "opening a
    ..dialogue") rather than just deriding them?

    What do you think I am doing?!

    ..cc
    ..

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
     
  7. On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 01:47:57 GMT, Trekkie Dad <[email protected]> wrote:

    ..In article <[email protected]>,
    .. Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote:
    ..
    ..> .Uh, no. Opening a dialog would involve opening his mind. If you observe
    ..> .mikey long enough, you come to realize his mind is not only closed, but
    ..> .the lock is rusted, and the key has long ago been discarded.
    ..>
    ..> We psychologists call that "Projection".
    ..
    ..Yet another predictable response--so far gone you don't recognize the
    ..trait in yourself. (Maybe it's an aftereffect from the brainwashing.)
    ..
    ..And while we're on the subject of psychology--despite the degree you
    ..hold, you are not licensed to practice psychology (at least not in the
    ..state of California where you reside). Don't pretend to be something
    ..that you're not.
    ..
    ..TD--not going to play "the game"

    Then what's the matter? Filter broken? Until you start to tell the truth, you
    will continue to be a bit player and a ZERO.
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
     
  8. Trekkie Dad

    Trekkie Dad Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote:

    > On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 01:47:57 GMT, Trekkie Dad <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > .In article <[email protected]>,
    > . Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote:
    > .
    > .> .Uh, no. Opening a dialog would involve opening his mind. If you observe
    > .> .mikey long enough, you come to realize his mind is not only closed, but
    > .> .the lock is rusted, and the key has long ago been discarded.
    > .>
    > .> We psychologists call that "Projection".
    > .
    > .Yet another predictable response--so far gone you don't recognize the
    > .trait in yourself. (Maybe it's an aftereffect from the brainwashing.)
    > .
    > .And while we're on the subject of psychology--despite the degree you
    > .hold, you are not licensed to practice psychology (at least not in the
    > .state of California where you reside). Don't pretend to be something
    > .that you're not.
    > .
    > .TD--not going to play "the game"
    >
    > Then what's the matter? Filter broken? Until you start to tell the truth, you
    > will continue to be a bit player and a ZERO.


    Yet another predictable response--when backed into a corner and all else
    fails, change the subject and imply that your opponent is a liar.

    I've already told the truth. Did I lie when I said you are not licensed
    to practice psychology in California? It's your turn to tell the
    truth--start with that admission and then we'll talk. Ain't gonna
    happen. Nope. No way, no how.

    TD

    --
    [email protected]
    World Without Cars Dictionary of Vandemisms (2001) is available at:
    http://trekkiedad.freeservers.com/wwc.html
    ICQ# available on request
     
  9. On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 14:28:20 GMT, Trekkie Dad <[email protected]> wrote:

    ..In article <[email protected]>,
    .. Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote:
    ..
    ..> On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 01:47:57 GMT, Trekkie Dad <[email protected]> wrote:
    ..>
    ..> .In article <[email protected]>,
    ..> . Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote:
    ..> .
    ..> .> .Uh, no. Opening a dialog would involve opening his mind. If you observe
    ..> .> .mikey long enough, you come to realize his mind is not only closed, but
    ..> .> .the lock is rusted, and the key has long ago been discarded.
    ..> .>
    ..> .> We psychologists call that "Projection".
    ..> .
    ..> .Yet another predictable response--so far gone you don't recognize the
    ..> .trait in yourself. (Maybe it's an aftereffect from the brainwashing.)

    A LIE.

    ..> .And while we're on the subject of psychology--despite the degree you
    ..> .hold, you are not licensed to practice psychology (at least not in the
    ..> .state of California where you reside). Don't pretend to be something
    ..> .that you're not.

    I'm being a Pd.D. in Psychology. I don't need a license for that.

    ..> .TD--not going to play "the game"
    ..>
    ..> Then what's the matter? Filter broken? Until you start to tell the truth, you
    ..> will continue to be a bit player and a ZERO.
    ..
    ..Yet another predictable response--when backed into a corner and all else
    ..fails, change the subject and imply that your opponent is a liar.
    ..
    ..I've already told the truth.

    You just LIED, by saying that I was "brainwashed". See above. But LYING is
    nothing new for mountain bikers, is it?

    Did I lie when I said you are not licensed
    ..to practice psychology in California? It's your turn to tell the
    ..truth--start with that admission and then we'll talk. Ain't gonna
    ..happen. Nope. No way, no how.
    ..
    ..TD

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
     
  10. cc

    cc Guest

    "Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 01:20:01 -0700, "cc" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > .
    > ."Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > .news:[email protected]
    > .> On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 00:21:05 -0400, "tcmedara"
    > .<[email protected]>
    > .> wrote:
    > .>
    > .> .S o r n i <[email protected]> wrote:
    > .> .> davidmc wrote:
    > .> .>> Mike Vandeman wrote:
    > .> .>
    > .> .> {I will snip it now -- see how that works?!??!?!?#(*&#[email protected]*@!)}
    > .> .>

    <snip>
    >> .> .> Bill "impressed, mightily" S.

    > .> .
    > .> .I was gonna comment on the same thing earlier, but I knew I had to

    live
    > .this
    > .> .one for you, Bill. I'm not even sure why I even look at these MV

    threads
    > .> .anymore, sorta like not being able to look away from the car wreck,

    even
    > .> .after you've seen all you care to see.
    > .>
    > .> Mountain bikers havd no self-control, or they wouldn't be addicted.
    > .>
    > .
    > .I'm not sure exactly who you think you are, but it must hard to make

    friends
    > .when you are clearly so superior to everybody.
    >
    > I'm not the least bit superior. I just tell the truth, something you

    should try.
    >
    > .It's too bad, Mike. Not just for you. I mean, you obviously are in a bad
    > .place if you continue to post here. You must realize that you're not
    > .reaching anybody, yet you continue. Which means that you really don't

    have
    > .anything better to do, enjoy the abuse, or like patronizing others to

    make
    > .yourself feel better.
    > .
    > .I think the worst part, though, is that your ilk give environmental
    > .advocates a bad name. I am a very green person,
    >
    > How do you express that? By MOUNTAIN BIKING????


    Mike, I do truly enjoy nature, and do so on my bike. I also find it a good
    way to get to higher elevations, and like to eat lunch out in the middle of
    nowhere. Not that you care, but it's not all about "hootin' and hollerin'".

    We all do things every day that are not best for nature (if we're willing to
    admit it) because we enjoy them. If we are at least aware of the risk we
    pose, and do the best to minimize it, I think it's the next best thing to
    not doing it at all. After all, I do bike in part to enjoy nature.

    Besides all that, I am quite active - and have been for a long time - in
    advocating many earth-friendly activities. I also enjoy nature in many other
    ways. It's funny, I've seen much more damage done by hikers and equestrians
    than by bikers. Not that I care to argue about it, but do you post on ATV,
    hiking, and horseback-riding forums?

    <snip>

    > What do you think I am doing?!


    Mike, you do not talk with us, but at us. Generally I don't start
    conversations with others by calling them liars or accusing them of being
    stupid. I can see that you're above any level of compromise, but have you
    ever tried talking about how to ride less destructively?

    cc
     
  11. On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 23:50:41 -0700, "cc" <[email protected]> wrote:

    ..
    .."Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    ..news:[email protected]
    ..> On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 01:20:01 -0700, "cc" <[email protected]> wrote:
    ..>
    ..> .
    ..> ."Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    ..> .news:[email protected]
    ..> .> On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 00:21:05 -0400, "tcmedara"
    ..> .<[email protected]>
    ..> .> wrote:
    ..> .>
    ..> .> .S o r n i <[email protected]> wrote:
    ..> .> .> davidmc wrote:
    ..> .> .>> Mike Vandeman wrote:
    ..> .> .>
    ..> .> .> {I will snip it now -- see how that works?!??!?!?#(*&#[email protected]*@!)}
    ..> .> .>
    ..<snip>
    ..>> .> .> Bill "impressed, mightily" S.
    ..> .> .
    ..> .> .I was gonna comment on the same thing earlier, but I knew I had to
    ..live
    ..> .this
    ..> .> .one for you, Bill. I'm not even sure why I even look at these MV
    ..threads
    ..> .> .anymore, sorta like not being able to look away from the car wreck,
    ..even
    ..> .> .after you've seen all you care to see.
    ..> .>
    ..> .> Mountain bikers havd no self-control, or they wouldn't be addicted.
    ..> .>
    ..> .
    ..> .I'm not sure exactly who you think you are, but it must hard to make
    ..friends
    ..> .when you are clearly so superior to everybody.
    ..>
    ..> I'm not the least bit superior. I just tell the truth, something you
    ..should try.
    ..>
    ..> .It's too bad, Mike. Not just for you. I mean, you obviously are in a bad
    ..> .place if you continue to post here. You must realize that you're not
    ..> .reaching anybody, yet you continue. Which means that you really don't
    ..have
    ..> .anything better to do, enjoy the abuse, or like patronizing others to
    ..make
    ..> .yourself feel better.
    ..> .
    ..> .I think the worst part, though, is that your ilk give environmental
    ..> .advocates a bad name. I am a very green person,
    ..>
    ..> How do you express that? By MOUNTAIN BIKING????
    ..
    ..Mike, I do truly enjoy nature, and do so on my bike. I also find it a good
    ..way to get to higher elevations, and like to eat lunch out in the middle of
    ..nowhere.

    Me too. But I WALK. Are you incapable of walking?

    ..Not that you care, but it's not all about "hootin' and hollerin'".
    ..
    ..We all do things every day that are not best for nature (if we're willing to
    ..admit it) because we enjoy them. If we are at least aware of the risk we
    ..pose, and do the best to minimize it, I think it's the next best thing to
    ..not doing it at all. After all, I do bike in part to enjoy nature.

    Your motivations are irrelevant to the anmals and plants you are selfishly
    killing for sport.

    ..Besides all that, I am quite active - and have been for a long time - in
    ..advocating many earth-friendly activities.

    Mountain biking isn't one of them.

    I also enjoy nature in many other
    ..ways. It's funny, I've seen much more damage done by hikers and equestrians
    ..than by bikers. Not that I care to argue about it, but do you post on ATV,
    ..hiking, and horseback-riding forums?
    ..
    ..<snip>
    ..
    ..> What do you think I am doing?!
    ..
    ..Mike, you do not talk with us, but at us. Generally I don't start
    ..conversations with others by calling them liars or accusing them of being
    ..stupid. I can see that you're above any level of compromise, but have you
    ..ever tried talking about how to ride less destructively?

    All the time: stay on pavement! DUH!

    ..cc
    ..

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
     
  12. bryan

    bryan Guest

    As a college student a can respect anyone who earned their doctorate.
    But I can not respect someone who declares themselves a PH.d. at the
    begining of an article, for authority, while talking completely out of
    thier field. As a college student, I also know how specialized people
    are and how narrow thier education becomes as a grad student. Your
    PH.d. gives you no qualifications here.

    Bryan Donovan

    Mike Vandeman wrote:
    > On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 14:28:20 GMT, Trekkie Dad <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > .In article <[email protected]>,
    > . Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote:
    > .
    > .> On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 01:47:57 GMT, Trekkie Dad <[email protected]> wrote:
    > .>
    > .> .In article <[email protected]>,
    > .> . Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote:
    > .> .
    > .> .> .Uh, no. Opening a dialog would involve opening his mind. If you observe
    > .> .> .mikey long enough, you come to realize his mind is not only closed, but
    > .> .> .the lock is rusted, and the key has long ago been discarded.
    > .> .>
    > .> .> We psychologists call that "Projection".
    > .> .
    > .> .Yet another predictable response--so far gone you don't recognize the
    > .> .trait in yourself. (Maybe it's an aftereffect from the brainwashing.)
    >
    > A LIE.
    >
    > .> .And while we're on the subject of psychology--despite the degree you
    > .> .hold, you are not licensed to practice psychology (at least not in the
    > .> .state of California where you reside). Don't pretend to be something
    > .> .that you're not.
    >
    > I'm being a Pd.D. in Psychology. I don't need a license for that.
    >
    > .> .TD--not going to play "the game"
    > .>
    > .> Then what's the matter? Filter broken? Until you start to tell the truth, you
    > .> will continue to be a bit player and a ZERO.
    > .
    > .Yet another predictable response--when backed into a corner and all else
    > .fails, change the subject and imply that your opponent is a liar.
    > .
    > .I've already told the truth.
    >
    > You just LIED, by saying that I was "brainwashed". See above. But LYING is
    > nothing new for mountain bikers, is it?
    >
    > Did I lie when I said you are not licensed
    > .to practice psychology in California? It's your turn to tell the
    > .truth--start with that admission and then we'll talk. Ain't gonna
    > .happen. Nope. No way, no how.
    > .
    > .TD
    >
    > ===
    > I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    > humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    > years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
    >
    > http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
     
  13. On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 13:29:45 -0700, bryan <[email protected]> wrote:

    ..As a college student a can respect anyone who earned their doctorate.
    ..But I can not respect someone who declares themselves a PH.d. at the
    ..begining of an article, for authority, while talking completely out of
    ..thier field. As a college student, I also know how specialized people
    ..are and how narrow thier education becomes as a grad student. Your
    ..PH.d. gives you no qualifications here.

    Yes it does. Expertise in scientific method and interpreting mountain bikers'
    pseudo-scientific "studies". But it takes ZERO scientific knowledge to report on
    the OBVIOUS damage done by mountain biking. Anyone can do it, as long as they
    are HONEST (that rules out all mountain bikers).

    ..Bryan Donovan
    ..
    ..Mike Vandeman wrote:
    ..> On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 14:28:20 GMT, Trekkie Dad <[email protected]> wrote:
    ..>
    ..> .In article <[email protected]>,
    ..> . Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote:
    ..> .
    ..> .> On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 01:47:57 GMT, Trekkie Dad <[email protected]> wrote:
    ..> .>
    ..> .> .In article <[email protected]>,
    ..> .> . Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote:
    ..> .> .
    ..> .> .> .Uh, no. Opening a dialog would involve opening his mind. If you observe
    ..> .> .> .mikey long enough, you come to realize his mind is not only closed, but
    ..> .> .> .the lock is rusted, and the key has long ago been discarded.
    ..> .> .>
    ..> .> .> We psychologists call that "Projection".
    ..> .> .
    ..> .> .Yet another predictable response--so far gone you don't recognize the
    ..> .> .trait in yourself. (Maybe it's an aftereffect from the brainwashing.)
    ..>
    ..> A LIE.
    ..>
    ..> .> .And while we're on the subject of psychology--despite the degree you
    ..> .> .hold, you are not licensed to practice psychology (at least not in the
    ..> .> .state of California where you reside). Don't pretend to be something
    ..> .> .that you're not.
    ..>
    ..> I'm being a Pd.D. in Psychology. I don't need a license for that.
    ..>
    ..> .> .TD--not going to play "the game"
    ..> .>
    ..> .> Then what's the matter? Filter broken? Until you start to tell the truth, you
    ..> .> will continue to be a bit player and a ZERO.
    ..> .
    ..> .Yet another predictable response--when backed into a corner and all else
    ..> .fails, change the subject and imply that your opponent is a liar.
    ..> .
    ..> .I've already told the truth.
    ..>
    ..> You just LIED, by saying that I was "brainwashed". See above. But LYING is
    ..> nothing new for mountain bikers, is it?
    ..>
    ..> Did I lie when I said you are not licensed
    ..> .to practice psychology in California? It's your turn to tell the
    ..> .truth--start with that admission and then we'll talk. Ain't gonna
    ..> .happen. Nope. No way, no how.
    ..> .
    ..> .TD
    ..>
    ..> ===
    ..> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    ..> humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    ..> years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
    ..>
    ..> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
     
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