The Gerry Attrick bike: Mixte or Bent?

[Tom Sherman]

Chalo "99.99th percentile" Colina wrote:
> Andre Jute wrote:
>> Then I thought of the opa/oma Dutch bikes, which are low stepthrough
>> styles for ladies of a certain age and uncertain future. That was just
>> too depressing. (Chalo is looking for one...)
>
> For what it's worth, opafietsen have top tubes. They have higher
> standover than any up-to-date bike frame of equivalent size, in
> fact.
>
> http://www.workcycles.com/workbike/...cycles-azor-opa-gt-dutch-grandpa-bicycle.html
>
> Here's the size that interests me:
> http://www.workcycles.com/workbike/...r/workcycles-azor-transport-bike-gt-70cm.html
>
Yes, the Dutch are the tallest people in the world on the average, so
Chalo is merely huge instead of gigantic by their standards.

> You might have a point, though, about the depressing nature of
> traditional Dutch bikes:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/cleverchimp/1589947928
>
What brand of pannier?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth

 

[Tom Sherman]

Edward Dolan wrote:
> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Edward Dolan wrote:
>>> ...
>>> If you are not interested in high performance recumbents, then why the
>>> hell are you bothering with the likes of Tom Sherman and Peter Clinch,
>>> two nut cases who have never had a sensible thought about anything....
>>>
>> Hey Eddie,
>>
>> I thought I was a "whacko nut", and not just a plain nut?
>
> You are a whacko nut when it comes to your liberal-socialist-communist world
> view. You are merely a garden variety plain nut otherwise.
>
> Why are you advocating the CF type of bicycle? They are neither fish nor
> fowl and are a screwed up idea from Kansas. RANS should stick to proper
> recumbents.
>
Anything that get more people riding bicycles is a benefit to all cyclists.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth

 

[Tom Sherman]

Edward Dolan wrote:
> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> [...]
>> Yes, the Dutch are the tallest people in the world on the average, so
>> Chalo is merely huge instead of gigantic by their standards.
>
> The Dutch are also the ugliest people in the world bar none. However, the
> Danes are not far behind.
>
butbutbut [1], the Dutch make the best looking bicycles: e.g.
<http://www.challenge-recumbents.com/html/index.php?taal=en&selectie=recumbentmodels>.

[1] Gratuitous gdanielsism.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth

 

[Andre Jute]

On Feb 1, 9:06 pm, Chalo <[email protected]> wrote:

> You might have a point, though, about the depressing nature of
> traditional Dutch bikes:http://www.flickr.com/photos/cleverchimp/1589947928

Eh, I saw a vividly striking woman in elegant dress sitting on a
stately bicycle. Charming. I thought perhaps I was looking at the
wrong picture, so I clicked on the right to see a show of further
photographs. Smiling people, bikes in earth colours. Nothing
"depressing" about it.

What I found depressing was the intimation of mortality in you looking
for an opa-fiets, Chalo, not the opafiets itself.

Actually, there're a couple of other things I find depressing. One is
that the bike shop owners I know never smile and their customers don't
either. The other is that whenever I see a peloton of guys hanging
over their drops, or a single cycling by, there's never a single smile
of enjoyment.

> Chalo

Why do cyclists have to look like suicides waiting for a place to
happen?

Andre Jute
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE & CYCLING.html

 

[Andre Jute]

On Feb 2, 12:57 am, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > On Jan 31, 10:35 pm, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >> ...
> >> The CF will likely be slower than the road bicycle but considerably more
> >> comfortable.
>
> > Hmmm.....I do not find my "road bicycles" at all uncomfortable. And I
> > wouldn't expect a CF to be "fast", I have others for that purpose.
>
> Well, one would generally expect regular cyclists to not have too much
> problem with comfort - after all, true masochists are rare. Regular
> cyclists are a biased (statistically speaking) sample when it comes to
> judging the comfort of bicycles.
>
> Despite the protestations of certain parties, I believe that there are
> people out there who would be cyclists except for comfort issues;
> therefore there is a market out there for something more comfortable
> than a conventional upright, but is not as different as a recumbent. If
> a substantial number of these people could be served with CF bicycles,
> it would be of great benefit to cycling in general.

I used to wonder about that. But now I think there are a great many
other factors necessary for a bike revival missing, among a fuller
list that you no doubt know better than I do: general public attitude
to cycling (indifferent tending dangerous among the motoring public),
political clout of cyclists (zero), the growth of cycling facilities
(miniscule). The proof of my statement is clearly evident in the fact
that during the last fifteen or twenty years of economic boom closely
aligned to the environmental boom bicycling, surely an environmentally
friendly form of transport, did not outstrip economic growth by
multiples (Gofer Google, Carl -- bring us the relative growth
statistics).

> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> "And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
> - A. Derleth

Andre Jute
"Garbage in, garbage out." -- Programmer's warning.
"Wiki in, wiki out." -- Al Marcy.

 

[Andre Jute]

On Feb 2, 1:50 am, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Chalo "99.99th percentile" Colina wrote:> Andre Jute wrote:
> >> Then I thought of the opa/oma Dutch bikes, which are low stepthrough
> >> styles for ladies of a certain age and uncertain future. That was just
> >> too depressing. (Chalo is looking for one...)
>
> > For what it's worth, opafietsen have top tubes.  They have higher
> > standover than any up-to-date bike frame of equivalent size, in
> > fact.
>
> >http://www.workcycles.com/workbike/bicycles/workcycles-azor/workcycle...
>
> > Here's the size that interests me:
> >http://www.workcycles.com/workbike/bicycles/workcycles-azor/workcycle...
>
> Yes, the Dutch are the tallest people in the world on the average, so
> Chalo is merely huge instead of gigantic by their standards.
>
> > You might have a point, though, about the depressing nature of
> > traditional Dutch bikes:
> >http://www.flickr.com/photos/cleverchimp/1589947928
>
> What brand of pannier?

Jasmin. That colour is sold out but you can still have the seagreen:
http://cgi.ebay.nl/Fietstas-Fiets-T...hZ019QQcategoryZ27925QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem

Andre Jute
(standing in for the googlebug Carl Fogel, who's gone AWOL)

> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> "And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
> - A. Derleth

 

[Tom Sherman]

Andre Jute wrote:
> On Feb 2, 1:44 am, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> Andre Jute wrote:
>>> ...
>>> Recumbents have other serious problems. I was never a bike racer, so I
>>> never learned to pull on the upstroke and I'm not planning on learning
>>> now. Cleats and shoecages and straps are a nuisance I don't need.
>> >
>> That is why I am such a fan of Power Grips for utilitarian bicycles -
>> inexpensive, effective and bloody simple to use:
>> <http://powergrips.mrpbike.com/pg_benefits.shtml>.
>>
>> Power Grips work well on both uprights and recumbents with relatively
>> low bottom brackets (near seat height or less).
>>
>> The most annoying thing about Power Grips is the "why didn't I think of
>> that?" factor.
>
> I don't think I'll ever use them, but they are certainly a lot more
> user-friendly than some other kinds of foot-restraint. This brings us
> to another reason I don't expect a cycling revival. It is that
> cyclists have painted themselves into a corner of insane exclusivity,
> and not a desirable exclusivity at all.
>
Yes, it is unfortunate that these people lack self confidence to the
point where that have to join an ultra-conformist group that attempts to
build itself up by denigrating others.

There used to be an excellent parody of this type on rec.bicycles.misc
that went by "Fabrizio Mazzoleni". "Fabby" is missed.

> They have done this by special
> postures and special clothes and making spoken and unspoken demands
> that theirs be recognized as the only way which the general public
> will not wear and have no intention of adopting themselves. Cyclists
> and their activity would have to be much, much more attractive to Jo-
> Anne Public for her to join in or to be happy when her husband joins
> in. (Those who think the previous sentence is strangely formed have
> not understood that we live in a matriarchy; that explains why they
> can't get a woman and also why they are cyclists.)
>
If a man is smart, he does not get entangled with a woman financially or
legally. That way, when she becomes a nuisance, she can be told to sod
off. The most foolish thing is to become a sperm donor and provider to
HER children.

>>> I
>>> get off my bike and walk up hills or into the library, so I just wear
>>> fairly stiffsoled street shoes. The thing I learned about recumbents
>>> in those half-dozen rides is encapsulated in something truly shiver-
>>> making that Tom Sherman said when he mentioned riders "trained" for
>>> riding recumbents. I don't fancy retraining for cycling, an activity I
>>> consider should be fun rather than a socially acceptable form of sado-
>>> masochism.
>> Injury type pain is no fun. Hammering until one is exhausted is fun. As
>> always, your mileage may vary.
>
> My mileage defintely varies. Downwards. I am not tempted to race Nick
> up an Alpine mountain!
>>> Thanks for sharing your expertise, Pete.
>>>> Pete.
>>> Andre Jute
>>> Man is an upright ape for compelling reasons
>> I like having my feet higher that what I am sitting on. My ideal bicycle
>> has the bottom bracket about 25 cm above seat height.
>
> I don't mind my feet higher than my seat when I'm watching a movie.
> It's when I'm watching a woman who till last year drove a 2CV, and
> that not very well, bear down on me in a Range Rover that's more in
> control of her than she of it, that I starting hoping that St Peter
> remembers I'm a Calvinist with a reserved place.
>
So the SUV plague has also infested Ireland?

>> --
>> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
>> "And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
>> - A. Derleth
>
> Andre Jute
> By definition you can't be paranoid if you're a cyclist. Millions of
> people in automobiles are out to get you.
>
The true psychopaths are rare. The inept herd predominates.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth

 

[Chalo]

Tom Sherman wrote:
>
> Chalo wrote:
> >
> > You might have a point, though, about the depressing nature of
> > traditional Dutch bikes:
> >http://www.flickr.com/photos/cleverchimp/1589947928
>
> What brand of pannier?

Those are Basil bags from the Netherlands. They also make some very
sassy baskets. Clever Cycles has them: http://clevercycles.com/

Chalo

 

[still just me]

On Fri, 01 Feb 2008 23:16:04 -0600, Tom Sherman
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Therefore, we can conclude the problem is with Mr. Ed's software,
>and not the post he is quoting.

You could have just put a period after "Ed".

 

[still just me]

On Sat, 2 Feb 2008 19:02:04 -0600, "Edward Dolan" <[email protected]>
wrote:

<some BS about his inability to properly quote newsgroup posts>

Do you really enjoy being such a ********? I would think it would grow
tiring making an a$$hole out of yourself all the time.

 

[Peter Clinch]

Andre Jute wrote:

> My interest isn't in high performance bikes even now that I'm whole
> and and hale and hearty. One suspects that with advancing years one's
> interest will focus even more closely on comfort and utility.

Bad wording on my part, but I regard "comfort and utility" to be
performance aspects as well. Moultons are comfortable thanks to the low
stepover and good road-going suspension, and utilitarian because of the
convenience and tight steering of the small wheels.

> But most of
> his bikes I wouldn't spend my own money on; I have too much spaceframe
> experience to like bunches of little tubes -- call it a personal
> prejudice, if you like. I'm a big beam man.

The Bridgestone Moulton doesn't have a spaceframe

> Furthermore, I live in a country where the roads are (were until
> recently, actually) so bad that a bicyclist on the way home from the
> pub falling into a pothole and drowning was a matter of national
> political outrage rather than a cruel joke. Small wheels just won't
> do.

As someone who lives on an untracked lane and has a Brompton with even
smaller wheels, I suspect that's more about prejudice than experience.
Furthermore the case that if the roads are poor then a good road-going
suspension will make a very useful difference to ride comfort.

> Recumbents have other serious problems. I was never a bike racer, so I
> never learned to pull on the upstroke and I'm not planning on learning
> now. Cleats and shoecages and straps are a nuisance I don't need.

A compact like the HPVelotechnik Spirit is quite typically used with
normal platform pedals, there not being the sort of advantage of
clipless associated with more laid back examples. Also the case that
something like the Spirit has a fairly high and relatively upright
seating posotion so you won't be staring out wheel nuts: in fact you'd
have an eye-view slightly higher than a typical driver.

> The thing I learned about recumbents
> in those half-dozen rides is encapsulated in something truly shiver-
> making that Tom Sherman said when he mentioned riders "trained" for
> riding recumbents. I don't fancy retraining for cycling, an activity I
> consider should be fun rather than a socially acceptable form of sado-
> masochism.

Again, there's recumbents and there's other recumbents. The Spirit is
very much a climb aboard and pedal off design that shouldn't need any
re-training, just a short period (and by short I mean somewhere between
seconds and hours, not days, weeks or months) of familiarisation. It's
also the most immediately comfortable bike I've ever sat on in my life,
bar none. Not so good for a long tour as a more laid-back example with
the weight more in the middle, but that's only an issue if you're
touring. Sounds to me like you're just getting about, and if that's so
then a Spirit or a Bridgestone only really raise problems in the cost,
being that much more than a good roadster.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Peter Clinch]

Tom Sherman wrote:
> Peter Clinch wrote:

>> Plenty of high performance bikes with low stepovers. The Moulton
>> springs to mind as an obvious one, look at http://www.tsr.uk.com/ for
>> the cheaper ones, http://www.alexmoulton.co.uk/ for the more expensive
>> (the Bridgedale isn't cheap, but ,much cheaper than the others listed
>> there).

> How do the Pashley versions of the Moulton compare in quality and price
> to the ones mentioned above?

The Pashleys /are/ the TSRs. I've not ridden a TSR (only a
Bridgestone), but several reviews so they're quite an improvement on the
old APBs and very well made. Not quite as exotically built as your
/actual/ Alex Moulton AM or NS, but very nice in any case, and much,
much cheaper, starting at £900 as against ~ £2K for an AM and quite a
bit more again for a NS.

Similarly the Bridgestone is a much less exotic beast, but very well
built and at a much lower price than AM and NS Moultons. The one I rode
impressed me greatly, it would make a lovely do-it-all utility bike but
I already have a selection for utility work so don't nmeed a do-it-all,
and I haven't got £1,450 spare...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Andre Jute]

On Feb 4, 8:21 am, Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:
> Andre Jute wrote:
> > My interest isn't in high performance bikes even now that I'm whole
> > and and hale and hearty. One suspects that with advancing years one's
> > interest will focus even more closely on comfort and utility.
>
> Bad wording on my part, but I regard "comfort and utility" to be
> performance aspects as well.  Moultons are comfortable thanks to the low
> stepover and good road-going suspension, and utilitarian because of the
> convenience and tight steering of the small wheels.
>
> > But most of
> > his bikes I wouldn't spend my own money on; I have too much spaceframe
> > experience to like bunches of little tubes -- call it a personal
> > prejudice, if you like. I'm a big beam man.
>
> The Bridgestone Moulton doesn't have a spaceframe
>
> > Furthermore, I live in a country where the roads are (were until
> > recently, actually) so bad that a bicyclist on the way home from the
> > pub falling into a pothole and drowning was a matter of national
> > political outrage rather than a cruel joke. Small wheels just won't
> > do.
>
> As someone who lives on an untracked lane and has a Brompton with even
> smaller wheels, I suspect that's more about prejudice than experience.
> Furthermore the case that if the roads are poor then a good road-going
> suspension will make a very useful difference to ride comfort.

I could be tempted by a Moulton design because it is without a doubt a
significant bike. Both the TSR and he Bridgestone seem to me pretty
reasonably priced. But I've already decided my next bike must use my
Cyber Nexus groupset, and I've also fallen in love with the 622
Bontrager wheels the hubs are built into... Besides, I'm thirty years
past buying something just because it is the most significant product
of its kind. In the end, to me the Moultons are not different enough,
merely a different, if significant, execution of an upright bike.

> > Recumbents have other serious problems. I was never a bike racer, so I
> > never learned to pull on the upstroke and I'm not planning on learning
> > now. Cleats and shoecages and straps are a nuisance I don't need.
>
> A compact like the HPVelotechnik Spirit is quite typically used with
> normal platform pedals, there not being the sort of advantage of
> clipless associated with more laid back examples.  Also the case that
> something like the Spirit has a fairly high and relatively upright
> seating posotion so you won't be staring out wheel nuts: in fact you'd
> have an eye-view slightly higher than a typical driver.

By golly, now that's a proper, German, thoroughly thought-through
recumbent bike, right down to keeping the chain grease off proper
trousers. Thanks for showing me that one, Pete; I've saved the Kinesis
review link on it.

> > The thing I learned about recumbents
> > in those half-dozen rides is encapsulated in something truly shiver-
> > making that Tom Sherman said when he mentioned riders "trained" for
> > riding recumbents. I don't fancy retraining for cycling, an activity I
> > consider should be fun rather than a socially acceptable form of sado-
> > masochism.
>
> Again, there's recumbents and there's other recumbents.  The Spirit is
> very much a climb aboard and pedal off design that shouldn't need any
> re-training, just a short period (and by short I mean somewhere between
> seconds and hours, not days, weeks or months) of familiarisation.  It's
> also the most immediately comfortable bike I've ever sat on in my life,
> bar none.  Not so good for a long tour as a more laid-back example with
> the weight more in the middle, but that's only an issue if you're
> touring.  Sounds to me like you're just getting about, and if that's so

No even that. My physician is next door, the shops and library less
than five minutes from my front door. I use the bike for daily
exercise, and if the day is fine ride further, but my maximum round
trip is only 22km.

> then a Spirit or a Bridgestone only really raise problems in the cost,
> being that much more than a good roadster.

No more expensive than a custom bike. But the Spirit is not anybody's
geriatric bike. A proper gerrybike will have zero maintenance or as
close as makes no difference. That means a fully enclosed chain. Older
people may be unable to bend to provide regular service to open gears
and chain, and may find the bike too heavy to lift up on stand.

> Pete.
> --
> Peter Clinch                    Medical Physics IT Officer
> Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637   Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
> Fax 44 1382 640177              Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
> net [email protected]    http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Excellent going, Pete. If for some reason I give up on the big wheels
and the chaincase, I'll take another look at the Spirit, which is
clearly a more user-friendly recumbent.

Andre Jute
Logical progress

 

[still just me]

On Sun, 3 Feb 2008 17:11:59 -0600, "Edward Dolan" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>"still just me" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news[email protected]...
>
>ALL TOP POSTERS ARE IDIOTS NOR DOES HE EVEN HAVE THE BRAINS TO POST ANY OF
>THAT TO WHICH HE IS RESPONDING! WHAT AN ASSHOLE!
>
>> On Sat, 2 Feb 2008 19:02:04 -0600, "Edward Dolan" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> <some BS about his inability to properly quote newsgroup posts>
>>
>> Do you really enjoy being such a ********? I would think it would grow
>> tiring making an a$$hole out of yourself all the time.
>
>The only


Congratulations. You actually managed to properly quote the previous
post. I knew you could do it if you put your mind to it.

 

[Jym Dyer]

> I knew you could do it if you put your mind to it.

=x= But that would require some sort of mind.
<_Jym_>

 

[Peter Clinch]

Andre Jute wrote:

> No more expensive than a custom bike. But the Spirit is not anybody's
> geriatric bike. A proper gerrybike will have zero maintenance or as
> close as makes no difference. That means a fully enclosed chain.

The chains are in tubes but the crank isn't enclosed... /but/ (and IME
of 'bents it's a big "but") without the crank placed low and behind the
front wheel the amount of crud it catches is minimal, far, far less than
is the case on a "normal" bike, so there's not much chain cleaning needed.
The Spirit can also be specified with a SRAM 8 speed hub gear (in fact
that's the default option), so you don't need to worry much about
cleaning the gears.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/