The Graciousness Of A Champion

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by B. Lafferty, Sep 1, 2003.

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  1. "B. Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...

    >Tyler is a champion by definition.

    <ridiculous dictionary crap snipped>

    Are the 33 riders who ahead of Tyler on cyclinhalloffame.com also champions?

    What about the riders whose palmares is worse? How far down does the label apply?

    >Some definitions of champion:
    >
    >champion (chàm´pê-en) noun
    >1. One that wins first place or first prize in a competition

    I've won ~25 races (not including track) in 11 years. Should I be called a champion?

    (In my not very humble opinion, hell no)

    K. Gringioni one who believes the term "champion" should be reserved for the very best
     


  2. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    > "Nick Burns" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> Carl was a champion or some scale I would say.

    Carl Sundquist wrote:
    > I'm not too fond of scales these days ; )

    Don't tell Gringioni what your Tanita scale tells you :).
     
  3. "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "B. Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    >
    >
    > >Tyler is a champion by definition.
    >
    >
    > <ridiculous dictionary crap snipped>

    Dictionaries (as well as other refrence books), are hardly rediculous. The provide a level of
    standardization that makes communication possible. Only a moron would try to claim otherwise.

    >
    >
    >
    > Are the 33 riders who ahead of Tyler on cyclinhalloffame.com also
    champions?
    >
    > What about the riders whose palmares is worse? How far down does the label apply?

    The label applies to one who wins races at the highest level. Winning LBL alone qualifies
    Hamilton to be lclassified as a champion. Certainly not a campionissimo, but a champion.

    >
    >
    >
    >
    > >Some definitions of champion:
    > >
    > >champion (chàm´pê-en) noun
    > >1. One that wins first place or first prize in a competition
    >
    >
    >
    > I've won ~25 races (not including track) in 11 years. Should I be called a champion?
    >
    > (In my not very humble opinion, hell no)

    But you are, Moron, you are. It's just that you're a very minor champion.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > K. Gringioni one who believes the term "champion" should be reserved for the very best

    Belief--that's the key. You're entitled to your beliefs as long as you don't hurt anyone
    but yourself.
     
  4. Steven

    Steven Guest

    "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > "B. Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:Kg%[email protected]...
    >
    > <hamilton's resume snipped>
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Dumbass -
    >
    > The first requisite for labeling a champion is winning.
    >
    > Not second place, third place, etc.
    >
    > There are a handful of active riders that moniker could be applied to right now.
    >
    > Museeuw, Armstrong, Cipollini, Bettini.
    >
    > Petacchi? Has only done it this year. Zabel? Lot of wins, but a lot of 2nds, 3rds. The label would
    > have been more apt in his heyday.
    >
    > Hamilton? No way. Only a handful of wins. Good drama though.

    Actually according to webster:

    cham·pi·on

    1. One that wins first place or first prize in a competition.
    2. One that is clearly superior or has the attributes of a winner: a champion at teaching.
    3. An ardent defender or supporter of a cause or another person: a champion of the homeless.
    4. One who fights; a warrior.

    I would think that Hamilton would meet the second definition well. Also obviously champion is used
    frequently in the cycling world in the second way, everyone and there grandma has called Ulrich a
    great champion. Actually I noticed that Phil Ligget and Bob Roll pretty much call anyone who is
    anywhere close to decent champions.

    I would appear that both technically as well as how the word is predominantly used in the world of
    cycling your assement of the word champion is incorrect, and the previous poster is wholly
    correct, but you opinion is greatly appreciated even if it is always inflamitory and quite
    frequently off the mark.
     
  5. "Samuel Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > >
    > > Are the 33 riders who ahead of Tyler on cyclinhalloffame.com also
    > champions?
    > >
    > > What about the riders whose palmares is worse? How far down does the
    label
    > > apply?
    >
    > The label applies to one who wins races at the highest level. Winning LBL alone qualifies
    > Hamilton to be lclassified as a champion. Certainly
    not
    > a campionissimo, but a champion.

    Campionissimo is Italian for champion. Dictionary, by your logic.

    If the term is applied so that anyone who has won a big race is a champion, then there are many of
    them out there, even among current riders.

    IMO, it should be reserved for the very best (and only a few). Otherwise, it loses its meaning.
    That's not to say that Hamilton (or Hincapie, winner of Ghent-Wevelgem) will not eventually reach
    those heights. But they're not there yet.

    Rankings of current riders:

    http://www.cyclinghalloffame.com/riders/rankings/ranking_combined_overall.tx t

    1 Lance Armstrong, USA 6940 2 Jan Ullrich, GER 5300 3 Erik Zabel, GER 5240 4 Richard Virenque, FRA
    4420 5 Johan Museeuw, BEL 4050 6 Marco Pantani, ITA 3460 7 Alex Zulle, SWI 2450 8 Michele Bartoli,
    ITA 2360 9 Mario Cipollini, ITA 2000 10 Gilberto Simoni, ITA 1920 11 Joseba Beloki, ESP 1760 12
    Peter Van Petegem, BEL 1690 13 Pavel Tonkov, RUS 1400 14 Andrea Tafi, ITA 1350 15 Francesco
    Casagrande, ITA 1300 16 Pascal Richard, SWI 1280 17 Paolo Bettini, ITA 1260 18 Ivan Gotti, ITA 1200
    19 Jose Maria Jimenez, ESP 1200 20 Roberto Heras, ESP 1150 21 Oscar Camenzind, SWI 960 22 Oscar
    Freire, ESP 960 23 Paolo Savoldelli, ITA 900 24 Alexander Vinokourov, KAZ 900 25 Stefano Garzelli,
    ITA 900 26 Frank Vandenbroucke, BEL 840 27 Raimondas Rumsas, LIT 760 28 Angel Casero, ESP 750 29
    Mariano Piccoli, ITA 720 30 Dimitri Konyshev, RUS 680 31 Robbie McEwen, AUS 680 32 Tom Steels, BEL
    680 33 Gianluca Bortolami, ITA 650 ------->34 Tyler Hamilton, USA 580 <-------------------- 35
    Romans Vainsteins, LAT 520 36 Erik Dekker, HOL 520 37 Jacky Durand, FRA 500 38 Aitor Gonzalez, ESP
    500 39 Bobby Julich, USA 480 40 Christophe Rinero, FRA 480

    <snip
     
  6. B. Lafferty

    B. Lafferty Guest

    "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Campionissimo is Italian for champion. Dictionary, by your logic.

    Wrong yet again, Henry. The Italian word for champion is campione. See the following:

    Source: The Collins Italian Dictionary © 1995 HarperCollins Publishers: campione [kampjone]
    (n) (m/f) (Sport) champion; ~ di tennis/del mondo, tennis/world champion; sei un ~ in matematica,
    you're brilliant at mathematics. campione [kampjone] 1 (adj) (squadra, pugile: Sport)
    champion attr; (test, analisi, indagine: Statistica) sample attr;
    2 (n) (m) (Comm, Statistica) sample; vendita su ~, sale on sample; 3 (Statistica) ~ casuale, random
    sample; campione gratuito, free sample; (Fis) ~ di misura, standard measure; ~ senza
    valore, sample only.

    Campionissimo is used to refer to the great champions, the champions of champions such as
    Girardengo, Binda, Bartali and Coppi.

    >
    > If the term is applied so that anyone who has won a big race is a
    champion,
    > then there are many of them out there, even among current riders.

    There ARE many of them out there. IMO, there is currently no campionissimo as in winners of multiple
    grand tours and major classics in dominating fashion.
     
  7. "B. Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:Rko5b.26646[email protected]...
    >
    > "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > Campionissimo is Italian for champion. Dictionary, by your logic.
    >
    > Wrong yet again, Henry. The Italian word for champion is campione.

    Fine.

    Problem is, we're speaking English. The word champion is the loftiest we have.

    http://www.cyclinghalloffame.com/riders/rankings/ranking_combined_overall.tx t

    1 Lance Armstrong, USA 6940 2 Jan Ullrich, GER 5300 3 Erik Zabel, GER 5240 4 Richard Virenque, FRA
    4420 5 Johan Museeuw, BEL 4050 6 Marco Pantani, ITA 3460 7 Alex Zulle, SWI 2450 8 Michele Bartoli,
    ITA 2360 9 Mario Cipollini, ITA 2000 10 Gilberto Simoni, ITA 1920 11 Joseba Beloki, ESP 1760 12
    Peter Van Petegem, BEL 1690 13 Pavel Tonkov, RUS 1400 14 Andrea Tafi, ITA 1350 15 Francesco
    Casagrande, ITA 1300 16 Pascal Richard, SWI 1280 17 Paolo Bettini, ITA 1260 18 Ivan Gotti, ITA 1200
    19 Jose Maria Jimenez, ESP 1200 20 Roberto Heras, ESP 1150 21 Oscar Camenzind, SWI 960 22 Oscar
    Freire, ESP 960 23 Paolo Savoldelli, ITA 900 24 Alexander Vinokourov, KAZ 900 25 Stefano Garzelli,
    ITA 900 26 Frank Vandenbroucke, BEL 840 27 Raimondas Rumsas, LIT 760 28 Angel Casero, ESP 750 29
    Mariano Piccoli, ITA 720 30 Dimitri Konyshev, RUS 680 31 Robbie McEwen, AUS 680 32 Tom Steels, BEL
    680 33 Gianluca Bortolami, ITA 650 ------->34 Tyler Hamilton, USA 580 <-------------------- 35
    Romans Vainsteins, LAT 520 36 Erik Dekker, HOL 520 37 Jacky Durand, FRA 500 38 Aitor Gonzalez, ESP
    500 39 Bobby Julich, USA 480 40 Christophe Rinero, FRA 480

    <snip
     
  8. B. Lafferty

    B. Lafferty Guest

    "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "B. Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > > "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > > > Campionissimo is Italian for champion. Dictionary, by your logic.
    > >
    > > Wrong yet again, Henry. The Italian word for champion is campione.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Fine.
    >
    > Problem is, we're speaking English. The word champion is the loftiest we have.
    >
    >
    >
    http://www.cyclinghalloffame.com/riders/rankings/ranking_combined_overall.tx
    > t
    >
    > 1 Lance Armstrong, USA 6940 2 Jan Ullrich, GER 5300 3 Erik Zabel, GER 5240 4 Richard Virenque, FRA
    > 4420 5 Johan Museeuw, BEL 4050 6 Marco Pantani, ITA 3460 7 Alex Zulle, SWI 2450 8 Michele Bartoli,
    > ITA 2360 9 Mario Cipollini, ITA 2000 10 Gilberto Simoni, ITA 1920 11 Joseba Beloki, ESP 1760 12
    > Peter Van Petegem, BEL 1690 13 Pavel Tonkov, RUS 1400 14 Andrea Tafi, ITA 1350 15 Francesco
    > Casagrande, ITA 1300 16 Pascal Richard, SWI 1280 17 Paolo Bettini, ITA 1260 18 Ivan Gotti, ITA
    > 1200 19 Jose Maria Jimenez, ESP 1200 20 Roberto Heras, ESP 1150 21 Oscar Camenzind, SWI 960 22
    > Oscar Freire, ESP 960 23 Paolo Savoldelli, ITA 900 24 Alexander Vinokourov, KAZ 900 25 Stefano
    > Garzelli, ITA 900 26 Frank Vandenbroucke, BEL 840 27 Raimondas Rumsas, LIT 760 28 Angel Casero,
    > ESP 750 29 Mariano Piccoli, ITA 720 30 Dimitri Konyshev, RUS 680 31 Robbie McEwen, AUS 680 32 Tom
    > Steels, BEL 680 33 Gianluca Bortolami, ITA 650 ------->34 Tyler Hamilton, USA 580
    > <-------------------- 35 Romans Vainsteins, LAT 520 36 Erik Dekker, HOL 520 37 Jacky Durand, FRA
    > 500 38 Aitor Gonzalez, ESP 500 39 Bobby Julich, USA 480 40 Christophe Rinero, FRA 480
    >
    > <snip>
    >
     
  9. Duffy Pratt

    Duffy Pratt Guest

    "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...

    > Dumbass -
    >

    You calling someone Dumbass is like a member of Congress calling another member a "distinguished
    gentleman".

    > That is not the stance that my protagonists have been taking. Lafferty is saying Hamilton's
    > palmares warrants the label of 'champion'.

    If you go back to the start of the thread, you will see that you turned the discussion in this
    direction. Before it was about the graciousness of his comments. You said you didn't think he could
    be called a champion, and hijacked it to this pointless semantic dribble over the meaning of the
    word "champion."

    Duffy
     
  10. "Duffy Pratt" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    >
    > > Dumbass -
    > >
    >
    > You calling someone Dumbass is like a member of Congress calling another member a "distinguished
    > gentleman".
    >
    > > That is not the stance that my protagonists have been taking. Lafferty is saying Hamilton's
    > > palmares warrants the label of 'champion'.
    >
    > If you go back to the start of the thread, you will see that you turned the discussion in this
    > direction. Before it was about the graciousness of his comments. You said you didn't think he
    > could be called a champion, and hijacked it to this pointless semantic dribble over the meaning of
    > the word "champion."

    Dumbass -

    Your attempt to steer the discussion back to the thread title is also semantics.

    Which is what rbr is all about.
     
  11. Nick Burns

    Nick Burns Guest

    "B. Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > >
    > > > Wrong yet again, Henry.

    You are wasting your breath.
     
  12. B. Lafferty

    B. Lafferty Guest

  13. "B. Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:%[email protected]...
    >
    > "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > > "B. Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > > >
    > > > "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > > news:[email protected]...
    > > > > Campionissimo is Italian for champion. Dictionary, by your logic.
    > > >
    > > > Wrong yet again, Henry. The Italian word for champion is campione.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Fine.
    > >
    > > Problem is, we're speaking English. The word champion is the loftiest we have.
    >
    > Think back to language arts in elementary school. Do you remember those little words called
    > "adjectives" that are used a modifiers? Of course you
    > do.
    >
    > So, in English we can speak of a plethora of different champions such as "great" champions as
    > opposed to just a champion. There are many cycling champions but few great ones who win multiple
    > grand tours or even multiple national championships. We can also speak of a national champion, a
    > state road race champion, a time trial champion, a RAAM champion, etc.
    >
    > The Italians have a long tradition in cycling of making the distinction between campione and
    > campionissimo. Linguistically, they just do it differently

    In our language, I'd say the term "Winner" would apply to Hamilton, but not champion. It diminishes
    the term too much to apply it to everyone who wins a big race.

    Look at our other sports. Football for instance. There is one champion right now in the NFL, the
    Tampa Bay Bucanneers. Yet, every week half the teams win games. Are those 16 games champions that
    week? No. Winners? Yes.

    http://www.cyclinghalloffame.com/riders/rankings/ranking_combined_overall.tx t

    1 Lance Armstrong, USA 6940 2 Jan Ullrich, GER 5300 3 Erik Zabel, GER 5240 4 Richard Virenque, FRA
    4420 5 Johan Museeuw, BEL 4050 6 Marco Pantani, ITA 3460 7 Alex Zulle, SWI 2450 8 Michele Bartoli,
    ITA 2360 9 Mario Cipollini, ITA 2000 10 Gilberto Simoni, ITA 1920 11 Joseba Beloki, ESP 1760 12
    Peter Van Petegem, BEL 1690 13 Pavel Tonkov, RUS 1400 14 Andrea Tafi, ITA 1350 15 Francesco
    Casagrande, ITA 1300 16 Pascal Richard, SWI 1280 17 Paolo Bettini, ITA 1260 18 Ivan Gotti, ITA 1200
    19 Jose Maria Jimenez, ESP 1200 20 Roberto Heras, ESP 1150 21 Oscar Camenzind, SWI 960 22 Oscar
    Freire, ESP 960 23 Paolo Savoldelli, ITA 900 24 Alexander Vinokourov, KAZ 900 25 Stefano Garzelli,
    ITA 900 26 Frank Vandenbroucke, BEL 840 27 Raimondas Rumsas, LIT 760 28 Angel Casero, ESP 750 29
    Mariano Piccoli, ITA 720 30 Dimitri Konyshev, RUS 680 31 Robbie McEwen, AUS 680 32 Tom Steels, BEL
    680 33 Gianluca Bortolami, ITA 650 ------->34 Tyler Hamilton, USA 580 <-------------------- 35
    Romans Vainsteins, LAT 520 36 Erik Dekker, HOL 520 37 Jacky Durand, FRA 500 38 Aitor Gonzalez, ESP
    500 39 Bobby Julich, USA 480 40 Christophe Rinero, FRA 480

    <snip
     
  14. "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >Yet, every week half the teams win games. Are those 16 games champions that week?

    Should be:

    16 "teams" not 16 "games"
     
  15. Nick Burns

    Nick Burns Guest

    "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message

    > Look at our other sports. Football for instance.

    Why would you compare winning a bike race to winning a team stadium sport, especially when
    discussing how distinctive (or not) it is to win? That is plain retarded. It shows your desperation
    to hang on to you erroneous position. Why not compare bike racers to track and field, or any other
    events where there is one winner from a "field" of athletes? Is that not more reasonable?

    Tyler Hamilton is a champion bike racer. No, he is not the "ultimate" champion, the greatest
    champion, or even "campionissimo". You are trying desperately to be the champion RBR argument
    winner, but you have lost this battle.
     
  16. K. J. Papai

    K. J. Papai Guest

    "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > What about the riders whose palmares is worse? How far down does the label apply?

    > >Some definitions of champion:
    > >
    > >champion (chàm´pê-en) noun
    > >1. One that wins first place or first prize in a competition
    >
    >
    >
    > I've won ~25 races (not including track) in 11 years. Should I be called a champion?

    You are a co-champion since you won on a TANDEM!!!

    Thanks, Ken.

    >
    > (In my not very humble opinion, hell no)
     
  17. K. J. Papai

    K. J. Papai Guest

    "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > "Samuel Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > Are the 33 riders who ahead of Tyler on cyclinhalloffame.com also
    > champions?
    > > >
    > > > What about the riders whose palmares is worse? How far down does the
    > label
    > > > apply?
    > >
    > > The label applies to one who wins races at the highest level. Winning LBL alone qualifies
    > > Hamilton to be lclassified as a champion. Certainly
    > not
    > > a campionissimo, but a champion.
    >

    > Campionissimo is [NOT?] Italian for champion. Dictionary, by your logic.
    >
    > If the term is applied so that anyone who has won a big race is a champion, then there are many of
    > them out there, even among current riders.
    >
    > IMO, it should be reserved for the very best (and only a few). Otherwise, it loses its meaning.
    > That's not to say that Hamilton (or Hincapie, winner of Ghent-Wevelgem) will not eventually reach
    > those heights. But they're not there yet.
    >
    > Rankings of current riders:

    http://www.cyclinghalloffame.com/riders/rankings/ranking_combined_overall.txt

    > 1 Lance Armstrong, USA 6940 2 Jan Ullrich, GER 5300 3 Erik Zabel, GER 5240 4 Richard Virenque, FRA
    > 4420 5 Johan Museeuw, BEL 4050 6 Marco Pantani, ITA 3460 7 Alex Zulle, SWI 2450 8 Michele Bartoli,
    > ITA 2360 9 Mario Cipollini, ITA 2000

    Virenque higher than Cipo, Museeuw, and Pantani??????

    WTF?

    -Ken

    > 10 Gilberto Simoni, ITA 1920 11 Joseba Beloki, ESP 1760 12 Peter Van Petegem, BEL 1690 13 Pavel
    > Tonkov, RUS 1400 14 Andrea Tafi, ITA 1350 15 Francesco Casagrande, ITA 1300 16 Pascal Richard, SWI
    > 1280 17 Paolo Bettini, ITA 1260 18 Ivan Gotti, ITA 1200

    .END.
     
  18. In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (K. J. Papai) wrote:

    > "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:<[email protected]>...
    \> > 1 Lance Armstrong, USA 6940
    > > 2 Jan Ullrich, GER 5300 3 Erik Zabel, GER 5240 4 Richard Virenque, FRA 4420 5 Johan Museeuw,
    > > BEL 4050 6 Marco Pantani, ITA 3460 7 Alex Zulle, SWI 2450 8 Michele Bartoli, ITA 2360 9
    > > Mario Cipollini, ITA 2000
    >
    > Virenque higher than Cipo, Museeuw, and Pantani??????

    If you look at the "all time" list, you will notice that Van Impe, who has done virtually nothing
    besides a TdF win, his 6 KoM jerseys, and a handfull of stage wins, is ranked 14th, before Binda
    (15th), Poulidor (16th), Lemond (17th), or Fignon (25th), to name just a few who in my opinion were
    much greater riders than him.

    my gut feeling is that they tweaked a bit the points awarded to the various categories so that they
    wouldn't end up with Coppi ranked 9th on an "all-time" list as in this one:

    <http://www.cycling4all.com/a_cen01a.htm>

    In the case of Virenque, he has done at least 3 times podium + KoM, which brings in a good number
    of points.

    jyh.

    --
    =====================================================================
    jean-yves herve' /\ Department of Computer Science \/ e-mail --> [email protected] and Statistics /\
    University of Rhode Island \/ Tel. --> (401) 874-4400 Kingston, RI 02881-0816 /\ Fax. --> (401)
    874-4617 USA \/
    =====================================================================
     
  19. David N. Welton wrote:

    > "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> writes:
    >
    >
    >>Campionissimo is Italian for champion.
    >
    >
    > Heh... DUMBASS, Italian for champion is 'campione'. -issimo is an 'absolute superlative' meaning
    > the greatest or most in this case, or as an 'intensifier'.
    >

    'Campionissimo' isn't so much a label as a title. It would be in the american dialect 'The champion
    of champions.' When someone in the context of cycling refers to 'il Campionissimo', you have a
    pretty good idea who they mean.
     
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