The Infamous Bb86 Ultra Torque Click

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by ColnagoC60, Jul 13, 2015.

  1. ColnagoC60

    ColnagoC60 New Member

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    After 3,000km of building a new bike, I will accept the click from my Ultra Torque BB86 as music Campy provides at no extra charge.

    When I built the bike, I had version 196 of the new 2015 Super Record Ultra Torque crank set and looking at the design during assembly, all I could say is Campy, WTF. Did you employ some new Engineers fresh out of college, with no practical experience and let them loose on AutoCad?

    With an automotive (Mercedes) design background and these days industrial, if we had to fit something like this in a 5hp plus motor, with a loose slip fit of the bearing outer race cup, into its housing, it would self destruct in a few hours.

    Anyways, the shims, the pre-load washer, the Rouge Mechanic, nothing will help for long, we just have to learn to live with this until Campy thins our wallet with something new.

    To prove to myself I am on the right track, with the initial design analysis, when the click started around 2,000km, I removed the crank and lubed the mating surface between the outer bearing race cup and the inner surface of the frame press in cup.(Bearing housing) I did NOTHING else. I used an anti galling compound from Loctite, called Copper Slip, which has graphite as well as copper in a lubricant and everything was dead quiet. It lasted 1,000km and is back.

    As the outer bearing race is not a press fit in the frame cup (bearing housing), there will always be movement. It is not lateral movement. It is micro movement, including precession, lateral and radial. Once the lubricant is squeezed out between the mating surfaces, we have galling, or fretting. This is what causes my click.

    In industrial high power applications, once we experience wear between the bearing housing and the outer race cup, we will pick it up with vibration analysis. Once it becomes audible, it will self destruct shortly afterwards with a catastrophic failure. On a bicycle, with a mere 1/2hp motor, (my legs) Campy can get away with this, besides the noise.

    Just to make sure I have dotted the I's and T's, my click is not between the mating surface of the frame cup and frame housing, this being a common problem. On the Colnago C60 the cups do not press into the carbon frame. Also, I posted this on another forum and got a Campy die hard with a different opinion highly offended. Hope there is no repeat.

    Happy clicking. It is possible that this thing turns the volume down by itself, after a certain amount of galling has taken place. In the mean time I will forgive Campy for the Cult Ceramic bearings and a crank that spins free like no other.
     
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  2. CAMPYBOB

    CAMPYBOB Well-Known Member

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    I have had the Ultra Torque 'click-tick' on three different bikes. All had outboard threaded bearing cups.

    Adding shims and/or doubling of the wave washer solved my clicking. I am convinced, at least in my case, the clicking was caused by excessive end play clearance.

    I am also an engineer. An aerospace mechanical design engineer (both product and tooling). I can not understand how Campagnolo could release such a poorly design product in the case of the outboard cup BB design with the moronic wave washer setup. Fucking retarded...and this comes from a guy that has ridden Campy since 1972.

    I only have limited experience with press fit BB's. In my case, a shitmaNO 105 BB86.5 that also makes a little noise. Supposedly my creaking-clicking caused by the PF cups moving within the TREK Emonda's carbon BB shell. I'll tear mine apart this Fall (it's a winter beater, thus the shitmaNO) and use Devcon or such to cast the bearing cups in place). But...back to your Campy PF woes.

    You might try using a temporary bonding agent to fix the cups within the BB shell. Then, preload the spindle bearings with shims. Thus, all unwanted movement is eliminated and I seriously doubt the tiny amount of alignment error within the bearing and spindle system will affect wear or power transmission.

    I have my suspicions (not having performed high-precision measurements on any of the affected parts) that neither the carbon BB shells, bearing races or thin-wall bearings are to any degree even 'round'. Or that cylindricity, runout, barrel shaping or bell-mouthing are not part of the problem...remember where a lot of this stuff is manufactured. Tolerances and clearances are only, in the loosest sense...no pun intended,...controlled beyond a kind of/sort of functional level. I agree with you that any other industry or product application above the kitchen toaster that heads would roll if such crap was brought to market. Factor in the typical Campy price level and...well, wars have started of less.

    I further believe that because Campy only sells something like 8 cranksets per year in the U.S.A. the problem is not being screamed about and solved...quickly. And under warranty! With a free replacement design. Mailed to us in a gold foil wrapped box. With a bow!!!

    You sound (excuse the intended pun here!) like you have done a lot of research, wrenching and understand tribology...especially as to what is taking place under pedaling forces. Good luck with the noise that will drive a cyclist to...SRAM! And please post anything you learn in the future as to solving the noise issue.

    In the mean time you can join me in cursing Campy engineers for their moronic wave washer, stupid Hirth Joint technology with the easily broken titanium left-hand threaded bolt AND the dumb and overly complicated Over Torque assembly! All of that is just un-needed, unwanted and overly expensive solutions to a problem solved years ago by moving the cups outboard. And a pox on the designers that came up with the dozen or so new BB 'standards' that are anything but standard.
     
  3. CAMPYBOB

    CAMPYBOB Well-Known Member

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    After re-reading this:

    "Did you employ some new Engineers fresh out of college, with no practical experience and let them loose on AutoCAD?"

    All I could do was laugh! Yeah...the kid that could design square internal corners in a part was definitely given free reign in Engineering and then promoted to Chief Designer. Is Campy still using AutoCrap? I would have hoped they stepped up to a 1994 copy of MatraVision or perhaps CadKey 4.3.

    Who the Hell checked these designs? Who did product testing and prototype development out in the 'real world' on average production frames that came from our Chicom overlords???

    God help the next generation! You think they would have learned from things like the Modolo 'Death Stem', the Viscount/Lambert bicycle and any cycling product ever manufactured that was made in France.
     
  4. ColnagoC60

    ColnagoC60 New Member

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    ^^^^

    Well, today there were four of us doing a 75 mile spirited ride and we hit a bad thunder storm. The cult ceramic bearing design is such that if you spin the crank without the chain on it, it spins forever, no friction. Sounds great, but to achieve this Campy has seals that hardly touch the bearing to prevent friction. Sooo, after every rain storm, that crank has to come apart and be cleaned. Great! Means I will be click free for the next 1,000km.

    I think this stuff was specifically designed for Team Europecar, with a bunch of spare bikes on a rack and a team of mechanics who will wrench every evening to provide the ultimate in competitive advantage, good for a couple of 100km's at a time.
     
  5. CAMPYBOB

    CAMPYBOB Well-Known Member

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    Ah...I wondered why Tommy Voeckler's breaks often failed to yield him a win.

    I agree with your micro-motion theory. The radial loads are momentary and extremely high for a short part of the crank rotation. There has to be unwanted movement in the assembly...there is no other explanation. The axial loads are also high enough to cause noise in the outboard cup design and while never having wrenched on the PF models I would assume them to also require an inordinate amount of preload to silence.

    I know that on one of my 'solutions' that amount of pre-load necessary to stop the clicking freaked me out...something on the order of 1.5 MM IIRC beyond Campy's wasve washer-only installation. I was concerned about tearing the seals up or incurring high friction, but ANYTHING is preferable to that infernal noise! Edgar Allen Poe could have written an award winning short story about that noise and what it does to riders.

    If I ever build a bike up that has a PF BB and it starts to click, I will revert to any necessary solution up to and including bonding the bearings, cups and whatever else needs silenced in place.

    I would buy a pair of sacrificial steel bearings and swap them in for an extreme preload test run...you do have the require Campy or Park bearing puller and press, I assume. Get yourself a handful of shims and crank that thing down until it starts to drag the bearings while hand spinning the crank. Then go ride...hopefully in peace and quiet.
     
  6. ColnagoC60

    ColnagoC60 New Member

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    I thought about bonding the bearings in their housings, using Loctite which allows disassembly, I think that will solve the issue. The dilemma is the Cult ceramic bearings are open, they take no grease, only a very light viscosity oil and the seals sitting on the cranks are worthless. It means frequent assembly and taking apart, so I don't want to use Loctite at this stage. Alternatively, I can downgrade the bearings to normal steel sealed bearings, as the friction advantage is really negligible. Maybe some time in the future.

    The clicking coming from the BB is not very loud, nothing like the ones where the cups press into the carbon frame directly, without bonding with Loctite. Those sound pretty nasty. Colnago has precision machined screw in adapters, so the cups press in accurately and tight into aluminum housings. I can probably learn to live with the click if I have to. Perhaps I need to join the young generation and have Ipod thingies stuck in my ears, playing the latest rap at 120 decibels. :huh:
     
  7. CAMPYBOB

    CAMPYBOB Well-Known Member

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    Even rap at 120 Db is preferable to a clicking BB.

    I'm thinking a temporary bonding agent. Pull the spindle for maintenance...although the thought of repeatedly pulling and re-torqueing that moronic Ti bolt in the Super Record level crankset makes me nervous...and just house out water infiltrated bearings with WD-40 and then re-lube with spindle oil or such before putting the crank back together.

    Yes, I hate rap music AND noisy bikes!
     
  8. ColnagoC60

    ColnagoC60 New Member

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    Campy, gotta love your English vernacular, how much do you charge for lessons?

    So, lets give away Campy 2015 Super Record secrets.

    The crankset after riding a rain storm

    [​IMG]

    Campy don't make them in sets, so their hirth joint machining tolerances must be nice and tight.
    The right crank was number 40 of 2015 production coming off the production line.

    [​IMG]

    The left crank was version 119 coming off the production line and besides the age difference, they entered into a happy relationship.

    [​IMG]

    What Ultra Torque looks like after 1,000km and riding in a rain storm. Water in the assembly. The black sh!t is fretted galled metal coming from the campy pressed in cups, confirming that the wear is in the mating surface between outer race cup and bearing housing.

    [​IMG]

    More black sh1t on the left crank arm, same thing.

    [​IMG]

    The black on the spring clip ends shows Mr. spring had two fingers in the pie, where the lube between bearing and housing was squeezed out after some wear.

    [​IMG]

    Everything cleaned up nicely. The nitrided balls of the ceramic bearings show zero wear. Nada. So the black crap does not come from the balls and races. It comes from the cups. I hope Campy has the balls to look at their balls. B)

    [​IMG]

    The bearing cup after being cleaned. That is not water, it is galling or wear inside the bearing cup, exactly as expected with this design. That is micro movement all the time. Interesting that the left cup shows a bit more wear than the right cup, supporting your analysis of lateral movement. The right is held in place by the spring clip, the left by the wave washer. We would however expect the assembly to move as one unit.

    [​IMG]

    I agree a non permanent bond will solve the issue, but probably better with closed sealed bearings, not the ceramics, because the current seals are just there to stop honey bees from nesting.

    I also hate rap and clicks, but I also hate DW40. :p
     
  9. CAMPYBOB

    CAMPYBOB Well-Known Member

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    Great pictures!

    You have the evidence captured perfectly! The polishing of the pressed in bearing shell/holder/cup is enough for a guilty verdict and the fretting adds 10 more years to the perp's sentence.

    I would STILL shim that thing for end play pre-load. That wave washer design just plain sucks at controlling lateral movement and it is a proven source of clicking. Thinking more on that...the lateral movement in the case of my outboard threaded cup bikes 'may' have led to bearing cup race movement within the holder outboard cups. I just don't know as I did NOT take out a magnifying glass and inspect the outboard aluminum cups for polishing...agreed that it would indicate movement and thus a possible source of noise generation.

    I have one as yet un-used and un-ridden Wilier with Campy outboard setup. If and when I ever ride that one or get a PF Campy bike I WILL use your inspection criteria.

    As Campy uses a pretty decent PF to fit the bearings onto the crank spindle, I would think a light press fit could have been used to install the bearings into their cups. The much looser slip fit is, obviously NOT getting it.


    Another thing...about the 'C' spring wire bearing retainer...

    Could Campy have possibly compounded their design incompetency any further by using such a low-precision device? I mean...c'mon! An E-clip, Circlip, C-clip...anything but that stupid wire that has TWO water entrance points right into the bearing race. I understand the access issue, but, there's nothing like a corroded bearing cup or oxidized PF or threaded cup when it comes to getting things back apart. AND...it's another possible source of noise. I actually silicone mine in place a couple times trying to isolate the ticking sound.

    The Hirth joint is theoretically a decent solution to crank installation, but why the Over-Torque design superseding it or at least supplementing it? Both are complicated and involve expensive machining operations.

    You and I have a good grasp of the technical, mechanical and material side of the issues and are probably more like Pro Tour mechanics than the average LBS mechanic. I wonder how many hairs they've torn out while trying to deal with irate customers that just plunked down $7,500-$12,000 for that dream machine that drives them nutzo on every club ride or solo training run?


    Again, ColnagoC60, please keep me and others reading this thread posted with what you do what you learn. Campyphiles everywhere will find the information very useful. BTW, I still own two steel Colnagos from the 1980's and I raced in the late 1970's on a Colnago. I always liked the ride and fit.
     
  10. BobCochran

    BobCochran Well-Known Member

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    Wow, I don't know how I missed this thread. Not one but two engineers talking about Campagnolo issues. The pictures are lovely. I've always wanted to be an engineer myself. Maybe after retiring from software development I can go back to school and become the oldest graduate in the class. Then do a second career well into my 80s!

    You could always print the thread and the beautiful color photos and postal mail them to Campagnolo. It might get their attention.

    Thanks ColnagoC60 and CampyBob!

    Bob
     
  11. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    FWIW. As a former buggywhipmaker, I will first mention (for those who may not know or remember) that I long-ago criticized Campagnolo's Ultra Torque crankset with its Hirth Coupling, Wavy Washer & Spring Clip ...

    Nonetheless, I currently have hanging-from-a-hook an old French frame which I was going to test fit with an Ultra Torque crankset AFTER I substitute the 6805-6 (narrow) bearings with some more plebeian 6805-7 bearings.

    This is mostly a cosmetic change to replace an FSA MegaExo crankset which I installed in the frame (yes, THAT means that I modified some MegaExo BB cups to fit the French threaded BB shell ... but, I could have just as easily modified some Hollowtech II BB cups -- this is conspicuous consumption of a different sort because I could do it).

    FYI. There are a couple of subtle (?) differences between the Hollowtech II BB cups & compatible FSA MegaExo cups. The key difference is that a cartridge bearing can be more easily nudged out of an FSA cup whereas the same bearing is extremely snug in a Shimano BB cup.

    Now, the reason I mention this is because few people apparently complain about clicking with either FSA or Hollowtech II installations in BB86 frames (particularly relevant in the latter case since I do not believe that Shimano makes a BB86-only crankset), which suggests that BOTH wider bearing width AND nesting surface within the BB cup may mitigate the play which occurs in Campagnolo's current BB design(s).

    Again, by my reckoning (and, this has yet to be confirmed), if I replace the the 6805-6 bearings with 6805-7 bearings, then the Ultra Torque crank may-or-should fit with a minimal amount of tweaking. Since I will be throwing caution to the wind, I was going to use the most plebeian-of-the-plebian 6805-ZZ bearings rather than either 6805-R or or 6805-RR bearings BECAUSE the metal seals seem to introduce much LESS resistance than the rubber seals.

    So, THAT's a really long way of saying that if I had a frame with Press Fit BB cups with all of its attendant miseries, I believe that those woes which are evident with the Ultra Torque cups can probably be eliminated with some FSA Mega Exo cups AND by replacing the 6805-6 bearings with the 6805-7 bearings BECAUSE I will naively suggest that the slightly wider cartridge will be able to nest more securely within the BB cup ...

    Of course, YOU should choose the 6805-7 bearing-type which you prefer.

    The C-Clip which is inexplicably used to retain the bearing on the driveside is superfluous, IMO ... and obviously, the receiving groove will be covered by a 6805-7 cartridge bearing.
     
  12. swampy1970

    swampy1970 Well-Known Member

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    Cannondale's implementation of the pressed in bearing and wave washer works just fine and dandy, except they saw fit to not even bother with something as dumb pressed in cup. Press the bearing into the frame and adjust the endplay on the cranks with shims and a wave washer. Life is good after that.

    Campagnolo lost the plot with syncro levers and delta brakes. Ergopower levers always looked cool but I could never triple dislocate my thumb to make them work on Cinelli 66/42's back in the day. Maybe with the newer style bars things may be better but with retardation as seen on their cranks I have no desire to go back to using Campag anytime soon.

    Bikes need ceramic bearings like I need to add extra lard on my gut. A good set of steel balls with good seals is all that's required unless you're going for a world record on the track or a TdF prologue. That seal that keeps out the rain and crud probably requires 0.00001 watts extra to turn the wheel - or makes you go 2mm further in a 5km effort. Less CULT, more designed by CU*Ts. But that seal takes away from the wow factor when spinning a wheel in a shop and reduces speed when shooting the shit/bench racing by at least 7 mph. :p
     
  13. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    FWIW. With the understanding that I am NOT trying to persuade you to return-to-the-fold, I must say that I have never had a problem reaching EITHER the thumb lever OR shift paddle on my Campagnolo levers when they were mounted on Cinelli 66 handlebars ...

    And, with the understanding that I am often clueless, I have to say that because I set up my own bikes, the location of the brake levers (Campagnolo OR Shimano) has always been with access from the Drops [that is, when I situate the crook of my thumb over where the clamp band is located beneath the handlbar tape], first, rather than where some Wrench might think looks right to them ...

    And certainly, that is why when I reverted to using Cinelli 66 handlebars on some of my bikes I did not have a problem similar to the one you describe ...

    Of course, the reach from the hoods is always what it is.

    Perhaps not surprisingly, the "track" bend on the Cinelli 65 bars is another story when mounting brake levers.
     
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  14. ColnagoC60

    ColnagoC60 New Member

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    Update:

    The clicking came back to the extent that in a group ride, folks would say I sound like a Big Ben clock. I can actually replicate the click by grabbing the crank arm and push/pull it away from the frame down tube.

    So, after just past 5,000km (excuse the metrics) I took this thing apart again today. The ceramic bearings are still perfect, no wear and the cups look no worse than last time. So this setup is pretty much as in manufactured condition, and totally functional. The click comes free of charge from Campy though.

    I made a 1/16" medium hard but compressible silicon rubber washer, the same size as the wavy washer, and fitted it ahead of the wavy washer. (Bearing, wavy washer and then the silicon washer)

    All is quiet now, lets see how long this lasts. :angry:
     
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  15. CAMPYBOB

    CAMPYBOB Well-Known Member

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    "I can actually replicate the click by grabbing the crank arm and push/pull it away from the frame down tube."

    Ahah! it IS endplay causing the noise.

    The only thing I found that eliminated the clicking for once and all was lightly pre-loading the spindle assembly. I ordered a bunch of stainless steel shims in various thicknesses from...Wiggle, I think. Freewheel...yeah, freewheel...shims will also work and are available in a range of finely adjustable thicknesses.

    Trust me on this...

    Leave the wave washer in place and add shims until you feel a slight bit of drag on your bearings. Back off the shims a few thousands (just use a stack of shims slightly less than the setup that had a little drag) and I'm betting that thing runs as silent as the inertial guidance system gyro's in the nose of a Trident nuclear missile at apogee.
     
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  16. ColnagoC60

    ColnagoC60 New Member

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    Campy, I agree the shims will work. The reason I used silicone rubber is simply because I had some here in my shop and decided to give it a shot.

    4 hour group ride today and everything is dead quiet and smooth.

    After making this mod I actually thought about it a bit and I think what is happening is the silicone rubber washer is being compressed and in the process takes up both the play as well as assumes a new temporary memory (thickness), which will slowly expand as the bearings wear. It probably serves the same purpose as the shims, except it is less hassle to assemble, due to the ability to compress the material to fill the void.

    Looking at this design, if you are taking up the play with shims, why keep the wave washer? All it does is adds extra friction to the bearings.

    Anyway, lets see how this pans out, hopefully this thing stays quiet now.

    PS. I use blue Loctite on the crank bolt, which is a left hand thread on the titanium crank, it seems to lubricate the threads nicely preventing wear on repeatedly taking this thing apart and torquing it at 40Nm plus. It is a 5 minute job to pull this thing apart.
     
  17. BobCochran

    BobCochran Well-Known Member

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    Hi ColnagoC60, I'm wondering could you post photos of the shim that you used? Also, will the rubber shim still perform well in bad weather -- such as rain, snow, ice, and generally freezing temperatures?

    (I am not an engineer so I appreciate engineering viewpoints. I'm a mere bicyclist-in-training, too, so I appreciate the viewpoints of two obviously skilled bicyclists and engineers.)

    Thanks a ton

    Bob
     
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  18. CAMPYBOB

    CAMPYBOB Well-Known Member

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    Quote by Alf:
    "Now, the reason I mention this is because few people apparently complain about clicking with either FSA or Hollowtech II installations in BB86 frames..."

    Uh...Mega EXO FSA cranks have generated a lot of hate on the web. It isn't just FSA and Hollowtech nor is it just BB86 or PF86.5 frames...it's ALL of the usual suspects and most of the blame has been placed squarely on the inability or desire of Chicom frame manufacturers to measure accurately for size, roundness, square shoulders, cylindricity, barreling, taper, surface finish or concentricity. Add in the fact that plastic cups and ultra-thin aluminum cups are tossed into the mix and bonding shit together or adding pre-load becomes the norm.

    "(particularly relevant in the latter case since I do not believe that Shimano makes a BB86-only crankset)"

    shitmaNO does make a PF86.5 BB. Mine creaks like coffin lid on "Tales From The Crypt". I'll deal with it this Fall before putting the shitmaNO-equipped Emonda winter beater back into service. Smear the Jap (Chicom-made, actually) scrap crap up with enough glue and it may be usable.

    shitmaNo is among the most complained about noisemakers. Read James Huang's 'The Angry Asian' rants on shitmaNO and SCRAM PF creaking, squeaking and tweaking BB's. And external cup BB's from all the manufacturers have generated tons of complaints about unwanted noises.

    I'll stick with Campy. Adding a shim washer is all it takes and unlike riding a 2-stroke 50 CC scooter or driving a Miyata...
     
  19. ColnagoC60

    ColnagoC60 New Member

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    LOL Campy, gotta love that English.

    All the new style BB's are big step backwards IMHO. I have been riding a cartridge BB on a Colnago C40 for 15 years now, Campy Record, never touched it so far. Those days are history.
     
  20. CAMPYBOB

    CAMPYBOB Well-Known Member

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    A Hollowtech external rig getting major shimage:

    [​IMG]

    I've added shims on the off-drive side cup to cure the Campy tick. The black shims from Race Face, Hope and others are invisible behind a Campy black external cup.

    Crank spindle shims are what I use for adjustments that require smaller, finer take up of the pre-load. My Douglas frame was right on nominal Campy spec for BB shell width and it took a full 1 MM shim behind the cup to stop the ticking. The first Wilier took less...about 0.5 MM IIRC. The second Wilier was about the same and both frames were on the high limit for BB shell width and both were squared and faced prior to assembly. All three bikes are external cups.

    Two cranks are Chorus and one is Record. Two sets of cups are Chorus and one is Super Record.
     
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