The Infamous Bb86 Ultra Torque Click



CAMPYBOB

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Alf, Swami can't reach the shifters, but he did get a bit part in some TV commercials.
7BurgerKing_TinyHands-256x256.jpg
 

CAMPYBOB

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Quote by Colnago:
"Looking at this design, if you are taking up the play with shims, why keep the wave washer? All it does is adds extra friction to the bearings."

Your rubber spacer is adding some measure of preload plus acting as sound deadening material. It should work well until it (might?) self-destructs.

I leave the wave washer in place because while I take up most of the side-to-side slop there is still some amount left that the wave washer does function noiselessly with.

I do not eliminate 100% of the end play. The cranks still spin freely with the typical Campy silky smoothness when the chain is removed.

When you get to max-preload/zero endplay everything should still be good to go with steel bearings. Going beyond that and I would think service life would be compromised regardless of the bearing/race materials.

Like I said, my Douglas ran somewhere between 25K and 30K miles and the BB is still perfection in smoothness and silence.

Maybe it should be said that the standard wave washer setup used with standard dimension BB shells has too much endplay and that by eliminating most of the endplay the ticking can be cured permanently.

I should also add that it took me a couple attempts...with the addition of shim thickness at each step...to cure my first ticking Ultra-Torque on the Douglas. With that experience I was able to guess...er...scientifically calculate the thickness needed on the Wilier's at the test bench in one attempt. I guess I got a feel for the spin and the drag on the assembles and torqued Hirth joint to get it right.

Now, if only I could get the tension set on these abused Mavic training wheels to eliminate the spoke heads and nipples from ticking and pinging under power! I think I'm going to have to give each nipple and spoke head seat a drop of mineral oil. I've already used my tensiometer and set all spokes to a reference pair of new wheels. Damn, I hate noisy bikes.
 

alfeng

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Jul 23, 2005
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CAMPYBOB said:
Quote by Alf:
"Now, the reason I mention this is because few people apparently complain about clicking with either FSA or Hollowtech II installations in BB86 frames..."

Uh...Mega EXO FSA cranks have generated a lot of hate on the web. It isn't just FSA and Hollowtech nor is it just BB86 or PF86.5 frames...it's ALL of the usual suspects and most of the blame has been placed squarely on the inability or desire of Chicom frame manufacturers to measure accurately for size, roundness, square shoulders, cylindricity, barreling, taper, surface finish or concentricity. Add in the fact that plastic cups and ultra-thin aluminum cups are tossed into the mix and bonding **** together or adding pre-load becomes the norm.

"(particularly relevant in the latter case since I do not believe that Shimano makes a BB86-only crankset)"

shitmaNO does make a PF86.5 BB. Mine creaks like coffin lid on "Tales From The Crypt". I'll deal with it this Fall before putting the shitmaNO-equipped Emonda winter beater back into service. Smear the Jap (Chicom-made, actually) scrap **** up with enough glue and it may be usable.

shitmaNo is among the most complained about noisemakers. Read James Huang's 'The Angry Asian' rants on shitmaNO and SCRAM PF creaking, squeaking and tweaking BB's. And external cup BB's from all the manufacturers have generated tons of complaints about unwanted noises.

I'll stick with Campy. Adding a shim washer is all it takes and unlike riding a 2-stroke 50 CC scooter or driving a Miyata...
Mea Culpa!

Despite my loving Shimano components & its corporate interaction with customers, I obviously am living in a vacuum which excludes paying a great deal of attention to what Shimano currently has available ...


BTW. At this point, other than their Cassettes & Chains, I think Shimano would have to PAY ME (Hmmm ... I guess THAT statement means that I can be bought FOR THE RIGHT PRICE! Show ME the Money!!!) for me to use most of their current components (okay, I might buy some more Shimano hubs in the future) ...

So, I clearly did NOT know that Shimano had any BB86 cups ...

I guess someone would have to pay me to use a frame with PF BB cups, too, because I am too old to suffer with unnecessary cycling component indignities ...

Oh, and I am going to presume that the FSA cranks which creaked were their Carbon Fiber cranks vs. their plebeian alloy cranks whose non-driveside slides onto the splines as far as one wants to put them and which are secured using pinch bolts (akin to Shiman's alloy non-driveside crank arm attachment method).

Now, I am quite certain that the Rogue Mechanic is correct that shims will alleviate the clicking from a UT BB-and-crankset ...

BUT, I am going to declare that simply eliminating the WAVY WASHER from the stack will (also) go a long way toward eliminating the clicking ... depending on whether or not the width of the BB shell is up to spec ...

BECAUSE, by my reckoning, the clicking is due directly from the cartridge bearings trying to walk their way left-to-right (and, also the reason that stress is placed on the Hirth joint in some UT assemblies) inside the BB cups ...

ANYONE (meaning, I have done this!) can induce the "click" by trying to work (i.e., wiggle) a cartridge bearing out of the BB cup rather than pressing it in or directly pulling it out.

FYI. On a very vintage FUJI S10-S whose asymmetric 70mm, English Threaded BB shell I reduced to 68mm & faced, accordingly ...

I excluded the Wavy Washer and the Wire Clip BECAUSE I noted that I could ...

Consequently, bearings nest squarely in the BB cups & the Hirth joint has zero-play ...

At the moment, there are only very limited miles on the particular frame-and-crankset combination, but NO movement-or-sound can be induced by grabbing the crankarm(s) ... yet!?!

In other words, by removing a UT crank from the frame & piecing it together AND THEN holding it up to the frame's BB cups, you can see that with the Wavy Washer (and the driveside's Wire Clip) in place, there is necessarily the potential for movement which can be eliminated in the assembly by elimination of the superfluous components which the engineers added to account for the threaded BB shellss which were improperly reduced when faced by some ham fisted Wrench.

The next ride may-or-may-not be different ...

ANYWAY, that's a long way of saying that without the Wavy Washer & Clip which the fatter 6805-7 bearing would have when seated in the FSA cups that the two halves of the UT crank should probably mate, snugly, and subsequent/(also?) yield zero possibily of side-to-side play; and so, zero "clicking" sounds ...

Well, that's MY thought process on using FSA cups

.
 

CAMPYBOB

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Alf, I would agree that the wave washer could be dropped from the assembly as long as the endplay clearance in the spindle was set close to zero or ultra-lightly under preload.

My theory was that the entire spindle assembly (crankset and bearings) was walking left and right, creating the clicking. Just over TDC on the left pedal (my stronger leg) and ticking was insufferable. Oddly enough it only clicked at certain RPM's and while under power such as accelerating hard or climbing. With steady state power and a smooth pedal stroke it rarely clicked.

I check crank arm clearance with feeler stock on the off-drive side. I set endplay so close to zero it's impossible for me to detect. I induce BB movement in the frame without feeling any endplay. I suppose I could mount an indicator to the downtube or the seat tube, but even then I would be suspect of what movement I was measuring...frame flex or BB play.
 

CAMPYBOB

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This is the BB86.5 shitmaNO rig that's stuffed into my plastic...er...carbon fiber Emonda.

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/shimano-bb86-bottom-bracket

Note that it has the infamous prastic cups...noisemakers. This BB has been the source of complaints that have driven TREK dealers to drive to Waterloo and throw them through TREK's picture widows.

And the cure?

Semi-Sorta-Kinda glue this **** into your bicycle.

BRILLIANT!

FSA (Free ****, Anyone?), SCRAM...it's all insanity these days.

The old steel frames used to dampen some sounds. These new carbon wonders act as guitar bodies, amplifying the defects the manufacturers and designers put into them. But hey! Let's all have fun on our 775-gram wonder frames.
 

ColnagoC60

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Jul 13, 2015
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Bob C, will take a pic when taking apart again,hopefully not soon. Still going strong just over 120 miles so far. It is just a washer same ID and OD as the wave washer 1/16" thick out of 40A durometer silicone rubber. I cut it out of a flat sheet.
 
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alfeng

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CAMPYBOB said:
Alf, I would agree that the wave washer could be dropped from the assembly as long as the endplay clearance in the spindle was set close to zero or ultra-lightly under preload.

My theory was that the entire spindle assembly (crankset and bearings) was walking left and right, creating the clicking. Just over TDC on the left pedal (my stronger leg) and ticking was insufferable. Oddly enough it only clicked at certain RPM's and while under power such as accelerating hard or climbing. With steady state power and a smooth pedal stroke it rarely clicked.

I check crank arm clearance with feeler stock on the off-drive side. I set endplay so close to zero it's impossible for me to detect. I induce BB movement in the frame without feeling any endplay. I suppose I could mount an indicator to the downtube or the seat tube, but even then I would be suspect of what movement I was measuring...frame flex or BB play.
FWIW. Let me expand on my earlier observation ...

IF you take a look at the end of any UT crankarm, you will see that it is emblazoned with the information that the the Q-Factor is 145.5mm ...

THAT's well-and-good...
BUT, if you were to take the pair of arms & mate them OUTSIDE the bike frame & measure the Q-Factor when the two halves of the Hirth coupling are firmly joined, you will see that it is ~1mm less!!!

THAT necessarily means that if the arms are joined to the who-came-up-with-that 145.5mm kluge specification that if you introduce that ~1mm gap that you can not only wiggle the BB spindle, but the lack of axial stability will introduce stress on the spindles AND also allow the crankset to move laterally ...
The lateral movement not only allows the cartridge bearings to try to walk out of their cups (impeded only by the cranks, themselves), but it loosens the bearings ...
So, while there may not be any visible wear (as with ColnagoC60's CULT bearings), there may be motion that one can possibly-or-probably feel between the outer & inner cages of the cartridge -- i.e.,, hold the inner ring between your thumb-and-a-couple-of-fingers & the outer cage with your other hand, and wiggle ...

Is THAT adding to the unwanted noise?

Possibly!

Then, if applicable, scream-or-weep-or-both as you realize that inclusion of the Wavy Washer may have introduced premature wear!
So, the presumed-by-me key to mitigating the click is to ensure that the BB shell is as close to spec as is humanly possible ... closer to NASA specs than not ... and EXCLUDE the Wavy Washer & superfluous Wire Clip.
 

ColnagoC60

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CAMPYBOB said:
Quote by Colnago:
"Looking at this design, if you are taking up the play with shims, why keep the wave washer? All it does is adds extra friction to the bearings."

Your rubber spacer is adding some measure of preload plus acting as sound deadening material. It should work well until it (might?) self-destructs.
Yeah, I was also a little concerned that my silicone rubber may get smooched out of shape and end up somewhere where it should not be.
So far so good, we did a grueling 100 mile century Sunday, with a few 11% climbs on a 39/25 and a few sprints. Everything still good, not a sound.

I have pressed in cups, so the shimming has to be done inside the BB.

I use a Garmin Vector power meter and spinning the cranks in freewheel mode at about 70 cadence it registers 4 watts. I think this drag comes mainly from the chain and derailleur. I am still at 4 watts after the silicone rubber job, so far so good.
 

CAMPYBOB

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Alf:
"So, the presumed-by-me key to mitigating the click is to ensure that the BB shell is as close to spec as is humanly possible ... closer to NASA specs than not."

One of my BB shell's was at high limit, slightly over high limit is spots. It still made the noise.


Colnago:
"I have pressed in cups, so the shimming has to be done inside the BB."

The silicone washer is still located outboard of the off-drive side bearing though, correct?

"I use a Garmin Vector power meter and spinning the cranks in freewheel mode at about 70 cadence it registers 4 watts. I think this drag comes mainly from the chain and derailleur. I am still at 4 watts after the silicone rubber job, so far so good."

Yeah, I would buy that. I add steel shims and adjust things until I feel a small amount of drag and then back off the shim stack 0.5 MM. No drag...no clearance (or so slight a pre-load or clearance that it makes no noise and zero 'real world' difference in riding).

Once the 'fix' is in mine have stayed perfectly quiet for tens of thousands of miles with absolutely no maintenance on the BB. Even Campy steel bearings last...and last...and last...

BTW, I did get the Mavic training wheels to finally shut up. It took TWO WEEKS!!! of hard riding, but everything finally bedded in and got quiet. Pinging spokes (noise probably caused by the nipples bedding and micro-turning in the rim and the supposedly non-rotating spoke heads in the hub doing the same) are as irksome as a ticking BB!
 

ColnagoC60

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CAMPYBOB said:
Alf:
"So, the presumed-by-me key to mitigating the click is to ensure that the BB shell is as close to spec as is humanly possible ... closer to NASA specs than not."

One of my BB shell's was at high limit, slightly over high limit is spots. It still made the noise.


Colnago:
"I have pressed in cups, so the shimming has to be done inside the BB."

The silicone washer is still located outboard of the off-drive side bearing though, correct?
Nope, the silicone washer is inside the BB opposite to chainring side. One face mates against the bearing housing (cup) stop right next to the seal the other face mates against the wave washer. The wave washer seems to retain it nice and snug in place.

Good job on the Mavic wheels!!!

I still ride a set of own built Mavic Open Pro rims self built on a vintage training bike, but on my two racers I ride Rolf. Been very happy with them, one set is going on to 15 years, never needed any maintenance and the latest set is carbon. Except for having to return the back wheel on the latest set, as IMHO they laced it wrong and twisting their arm to do it the right way but winning the argument, they have been perfect. Then there is about three times one has to remove the glazing of new carbon rims off the brake surface, so they stop properly. I believe that will pertain to any normal carbon rim though.
 

alfeng

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Jul 23, 2005
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ColnagoC60 said:
I have pressed in cups, so the shimming has to be done inside the BB.
Because I don't have a frame which uses press fit bearings, I don't understand why you can't put your "shim" in the BB's seat & the crank's respective BB cup ...

Regardless, I still think it is MORE important to ensure that the actual Q-Factor of the assembled Ultra Torque crankset is ONLY 144.5mm instead of the committee's prescribed 145.5mm to exclude the axial wobble which the ~1mm gap between halves will allow.

So, if-or-when the next time your makeshift silicon shim fails, try removing the Wavy Washer ...

IF necessary (but, it shouldn't be), I would shave the outside of the shell so that the lip of the press fit BB cups seat whatever the ideal distance is for the UT cups to fit & allow the Q-Factor to be closer to 144.5mm than not.
 

alfeng

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CAMPYBOB said:
Alf:
"So, the presumed-by-me key to mitigating the click is to ensure that the BB shell is as close to spec as is humanly possible ... closer to NASA specs than not."

One of my BB shell's was at high limit, slightly over high limit is spots. It still made the noise.
Well ...

Of course, I could be wrong ...

BUT, I'm going to double-down and suggest that if the Q-Factor of the installed UT crank is the prescribed-by-committee 145.5mm, then the clicking is probably going to rear its ugly head at some point ...

It is far from a perfect analogy, but I think that It could be suggested that if the Buggy Whip doesn't flex then it cannot make a noise ...

AND SO, the easiest way to prevent the "click" is to simply EXCLUDE the Wavy Washer & superfluous Wire Clip to achieve the 144.5mm measurement which will prevent the Hirth Coupling from being able to move.

Make your own measurements ...

Think about ...

IMO, a 144.5mm Q-Factor is simply an easier (?!?) alternative to using the Rogue Mechanic's shims, BTW.

Then, try it.

 

CAMPYBOB

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Sep 12, 2005
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Quote by Alf:
"AND SO, the easiest way to prevent the "click" is to simply EXCLUDE the Wavy Washer & superfluous Wire Clip to achieve the 144.5mm measurement which will prevent the Hirth Coupling from being able to move."

Alf, it is NOT the Hirth joint that is moving. The whole damned crankset is walking left-to-right and back.

As the OP explained, one can push and pull on at least some of the cranksets and measure the endplay that is causing the noise. No one is going to be able to flex a properly torqued Hirth joint with a bare hand.


From the Rogue Mechanic's website regarding the axial play in Campagnolo Ultra-Torque crankset noise:
Posted on April 15, 2014 at 12:42 PM


I had him beat by 7 years when I 'fixed' the noise in my 2007 Douglas/Chorus.

And as far as $45 for a shim kit? And $50 if'n yer bike has an Eyetalian BB???!!! WTF?!?!

Well, that's capitalism at work. Those shims can be had for half that money or less. Or for free, if you want to cut up some plastic/rubber as our OP did.
 

ColnagoC60

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Loosen up ride, 40 miles this morning a light click came back, only at high cadence occasionally. But then it went away and is again silent. Could have been one of my cleats??

I can still get very slight play in the crank if I use force to push and pull the crank towards the down tube, but I have to apply a lot of force to get that. It is dampened though, with no noise. I think the rubber acts like a spring with a shock absorber in it, while the wave washer is just an undampened spring.

Time will tell, if this needs more work, I will have a titanium (galvanic corrosion with the TI crank) washer made up to fit in place of the wave washer, inside the BB leaving almost 0 clearance and throw out both the clip and the wave washer. No doubt, this will be the best practice. If one removes the clip, there is a lot more play, as the clip locates the bearing against the chainring side cup, but the clip has a small amount of flex as well.
 

alfeng

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Jul 23, 2005
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CAMPYBOB said:
Quote by Alf:
"AND SO, the easiest way to prevent the "click" is to simply EXCLUDE the Wavy Washer & superfluous Wire Clip to achieve the 144.5mm measurement which will prevent the Hirth Coupling from being able to move."

Alf, it is NOT the Hirth joint that is moving. The whole damned crankset is walking left-to-right and back.

As the OP explained, one can push and pull on at least some of the cranksets and measure the endplay that is causing the noise. No one is going to be able to flex a properly torqued Hirth joint with a bare hand.


From the Rogue Mechanic's website regarding the axial play in Campagnolo Ultra-Torque crankset noise:
Posted on April 15, 2014 at 12:42 PM


I had him beat by 7 years when I 'fixed' the noise in my 2007 Douglas/Chorus.

And as far as $45 for a shim kit? And $50 if'n yer bike has an Eyetalian BB???!!! WTF?!?!

Well, that's capitalism at work. Those shims can be had for half that money or less. Or for free, if you want to cut up some plastic/rubber as our OP did.
OY!

First, a seemingly obvious reason not to use the Rogue Mechanics solution is because of the PT Barnum cost ...

So, that suggests that (to me!!!) if there is what is essentially a FREE solution, that the frugal-or-prudent individual will opt for it.

Apparently, "... What we have here is a failure to communicate ..."

And, if I am talking to myself, well so be it ...

Because, I fully understand that it is the lateral movement which either causes or exacerbates the clicking problem ...

BUT, you are either failing to follow what I am saying or you are reluctant to refute-or-validate my observation that ...

  1. the natural Q-Factor of an Ultra Torque crankset is actually only 144.5mm and not the committee-ordained 145.5mm which is emblazoned on the end of UT crankarms (but, not on the PowerTorque crank arms!).
  2. imparting a seeming minuscule 1mm gap in the Hirth Joint removes the stability of the joint
    • I don't now how sloppy a Hirth Coupling is on a Helicopter's shaft, but I doubt it is has any play if properly fitted & adjusted
    • because as soon as there is a gap between the halves of a Hirth Coupling then the two, interfacing halves become gears
      and theoretically, any pair of gears can strip
    • obviously, not advisable.

  3. regardless, if you join the two halves of a UT crankset and then back off the connecting bolt by ~1mm so that the hypothetical Q-Factor is 145.5mm, you will see that you can wiggle the two halves ...
    • a little wave motion here, a little wave motion there, and soon you can have a seiche (!) ...
    • or, in the case of the UT crankset & BB, a clicking sound.
  4. if nothing else, that motion exacerbates any lateral motion which the Wavy Washer (a spring) can then allow which can otherwise be described as a teeter-tottering motion of the two halves
  5. If nothing else, the connecting bolt is knocking against the retaining wall inside the spindle when there is a 1mm-or-greater gap
    • AND SO, I would consider cutting a soft plastic washer from a milk jug cap to supplement the existing connecting bolt's washer.
In other words, I still think that it is preferable to achieve the natural 144.5mm Q-Factor than to use shims to snug up the Ultra Torque assembly UNLESS the shims are intended to bring the raw BB dimensions up blueprint specs rather than some alternative measurement.

BTW. As far as I can reckon (which some may choose to deem to be myopic!), the purpose of the wire clip is mostly to expedite maintenance and/or assembly so that the driveside arm doesn't fall out of the BB shell and/or to move the driveside slightly outboard from what would have been its natural nesting position within the BB cup!

So, ONCE AGAIN, I will declare that (I have found that ... at least, for the time being!!!) the easiest way to prevent the "click" is to simply EXCLUDE the Wavy Washer & superfluous Wire clip to achieve the 144.5mm measurement which will prevent the Hirth Coupling from being able to move AND SO, too, the spindle.

BTW. If, by chance, the installation which yields a 144.5mm Q-Factor begins clicking at some future point in time, then I'll try adding one-or-more 0.2mm (soda can) spacers between the cups & the frame rather than pony up for the Rogue Mechanic's spacers.
 

ColnagoC60

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alfeng said:
Because, I fully understand that it is the lateral movement which either causes or exacerbates the clicking problem ...

BUT, you are either failing to follow what I am saying or you are reluctant to refute-or-validate my observation that ...

  1. imparting a seeming minuscule 1mm gap in the Hirth Joint removes the stability of the joint
    • I don't now how sloppy a Hirth Coupling is on a Helicopter's shaft, but I doubt it is has any play if properly fitted & adjusted
    • because as soon as there is a gap between the halves of a Hirth Coupling then the two, interfacing halves become gears
      and theoretically, any pair of gears can strip
    • obviously, not advisable.

  2. regardless, if you join the two halves of a UT crankset and then back off the connecting bolt by ~1mm so that the hypothetical Q-Factor is 145.5mm, you will see that you can wiggle the two halves ...
    • a little wave motion here, a little wave motion there, and soon you can have a seiche (!) ...
    • or, in the case of the UT crankset & BB, a clicking sound.
  3. if nothing else, that motion exacerbates any lateral motion which the Wavy Washer (a spring) can then allow which can otherwise be described as a teeter-tottering motion of the two halves
  4. If nothing else, the connecting bolt is knocking against the retaining wall inside the spindle when there is a 1mm-or-greater gap
    • AND SO, I would consider cutting a soft plastic washer from a milk jug cap to supplement the existing connecting bolt's washer.

BTW. If, by chance, the installation which yields a 144.5mm Q-Factor begins clicking at some future point in time, then I'll try adding one-or-more 0.2mm (soda can) spacers between the cups & the frame rather than pony up for the Rogue Mechanic's spacers.
:eek: The hirth coupling, or its bolt has no relevance to what we are discussing.

What do you think would happen to a HDPE (High Density Polyethylene milk jug washer) when torquing the coupling bolt to Campy's recommended up to 60Nm?

If that bolt comes loose, something which the bike shops often encounter coming from home mechanics, the coupling fails and the crank is destroyed.
 

CAMPYBOB

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C60,

"But then it went away and is again silent. Could have been one of my cleats??"

I doubt it. You're usually at your smoothest when fresh and pedal stroke and form tends to break down over time/effort. If anything, I always found any cleat noise, leg length shim noise, etc. to occur the longer I was into a ride. YMMV, of course. You can always do what I did when I was first trying to track down the crank endplay noise...I, too, thought it was my cleats. I applied electrical tape to the pedal platform and front cleat hook-in area. I even applied tape to the cleats, too. At one point I was so frustrated that I swapped in a brand new pair of Campy Record ProFit pedals! I even used cut up pieces of inner tubes to sleeve my pedals...I was getting desperate!

We'll not get into some of the other extremes I went to in order to isolate that damned crank noise!

Note: Re-read your high cadence comment. Maybe cleats...my clicking was usually at lower RPM's while under acceleration or sprinting or climbing hard. Try isolating your cleats as described above. If it still clicks...it's the crank.


Alf,

No one is riding around on a loose Hirth joint. No one. As C60 stated...it has NO bearing on this discussion. A washer on the Hirth joint fixing bolt? Why? It's plenty tight at the torque spec. The joint is fully engaged and is not going to move. A Hirth joint is expensive to machine and overly complicated for the simple job a bike crankset performs, but...it is a very solid coupling.

Secondly, a 1 MM gap in the Hirth joint is NOT miniscule. You could park a semi truck in there. A 1 MM gap in the Hirth joint is a DESTROYED crank assembly in very short order and I would not volunteer to be on that bike when the crank halves separated. I already have been through one broken crank arm about 30 years ago an I was damned near a hood ornament due to the instant and complete loss of control of the bike. No thanks.

And the as advertised Q-Factor being off by .0394"? That's irrelevant. The manufacturing tolerance stackup on the carbon arms' forms, the alignment of the arm bonded on the spindle halves, the spindle lengths, Hirth joint tolerance AND the mating length of the Hirth joint (Do the math. Thin the tooth form or thicken it by just a couple thousandths on each half and calculate the mating length changes) could easily account for that and more.

The Rogue Mechanic's price is just capitalism at its finest. Those same shims can be sourced from almost any mail order house for 25% of the RM price. Price is a red herring and I'm guessing the man that can afford the price of a Campy carbon crankset can swing the few more dollars to get a couple of shims from Hope Racing. That might set him back a ten spot. Pop cans? Milk jugs? Mama mia!

AFAIC, the shims offers the most accurately adjustable fit, the most solid fit up and the best solution 'to me'. C60 went another route and it appears to be working for him. I got a metric **** ton of miles on my first fix. I've performed the fix on three bikes I own and one a friend was being driven batshit crazy by. The current Record crankset on the Wilier has maybe 15K on it. If C60's solution holds up half as well, I think we can call it good. If it doesn't or if he just wants to try the cup or spindle shimming method, I hope he tries it next. I got no dog in his fight. His riding mates will let him know even if he starts wearing ear plugs on his rides.

The real here issue is the variability of BB shell widths and a dumbass design from Campy that will, for all the noise it may cause, at least be a GO condition in all the frames manufactured to spec. and cause noise in some of the ones that are on high limit. Personally, I still think their engineers were on crack.
 

swampy1970

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I see Nibali got booted out of the Vuelta for holding onto the team car because he thought he was going to get the infamous 'click click' from his Campag cranks....

... and then when Vino reminded him that he doesn't use cranks designed by a 4 year old during licorice modelling class in kindergarten, he felt obliged to offer an apology to his fans.
 
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CAMPYBOB

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More weirdness from Swami:
"I see Nibali got booted out of the Vuelta for holding onto the team car because he thought he was going to get the infamous 'click click' from his Campag cranks...."

Good. Maybe Nibs can use his down time to fix the creaky shitmaNO BB in my Emonda.​

Of course, I'm sure you're aware Nibali uses Spesh cranks....that use the same creaky Hirth joint construction as Campy. The same design Lightning also borrowed from Campy. The one that unless properly shimmed up...clicks just like the original.

63756_00_d.jpg


Campy has moved away from the expensive to machine Hirth joint to a hard point setup with OverTorque. Although specialty tools are required and setup is more complex than with UltraTorque the noise issue is resolved.

I'll gladly buy the Campagnolo tools when I move to OverTorque cranks...which fit every BB design and BB shell width known to the industry.

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/campagnolo-over-torque-crank-fitting-removing-tool/



Now, please instruct the class as to which other crank manufacturers besides Campagnolo also utilize wave washers as pre-load devices?
 

alfeng

Well-Known Member
Jul 23, 2005
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ColnagoC60 said:
:eek: The hirth coupling, or its bolt has no relevance to what we are discussing.

What do you think would happen to a HDPE (High Density Polyethylene milk jug washer) when torquing the coupling bolt to Campy's recommended up to 60Nm?

If that bolt comes loose, something which the bike shops often encounter coming from home mechanics, the coupling fails and the crank is destroyed.

GEEZ ...

Whether intended or not, I'll take that as a veiled insult ...

BUT, you know, I'm not the person whose Ultra Torque BB & Crankset "clicks" ...

I install my Ultra Torque cranks so there is zero gap in the Hirth Coupling by ensuring that the installed Q-FACTOR is 144.5mm and NOT the by-committee 145.5mm kluge value which someone felt it was necessary to stencil on the ends of the crank arms ...

SO, because YOU apparently can't wrap your head around the fact that a sloppy Hirth Coupling either creates or exacerbates the problem ...

Once again, into the breech ...

  • If you take the two halves of an Ultra Torque crankset and combine them sans frame, you will see that the "ideal" Q-FACTOR is actually 144.5mm and not 145.5mm.
Got it?

  • To recreate the 145.5mm Q-FACTOR when the crank is not installed, there will necessarily be a 0.1mm gap between the two halves.

Got it?

TRY IT ...

REALLY!!!

TRY IT.

What happens?

How stable is it?

Without the Wavy Washer & Wire Clip, the cups, alone, create the stability ...

BUT, the Wavy Washer & the superfluous Wire Clip are suggested-by-the-committee for the installation ...

That's well and good, but the Wavy Washer is forever a spring ...

Apparently, someone in Vicenza decided that a torque of 60Nm will hold everything together without completely flattening the Wavy Washer.

A spring is a spring is a spring ... and so, YOU should be able to figure out that a measurable motion in the "spring" would allow the cartridge bearings are trying to walk their way out of the cups as the cranks are rotated UNLESS you have a perfectly smooth pedaling motion ... which you apparently do not have.

Again, I'll say that IF the BB shell or the seating surface of a press fit BB shell is spec'd to blueprint values, then the Wavy Washer & Wire Clip are superfluous.

AND SO, I will again suggest that if you remove the Wavy Washer & Wire Clip AND ensure that the Q-FACTOR is only 144.5mm and not 145.5mm (or, more!!!), then you will more-than-likely eliminate the clicking ....

THAT presumes that you have not already 'damaged'-or-worn-down the cartridge races ... as I noted, you need to grab the inner race with a few fingers while holding the outer race with the other hand WHEN IT IS NOT INSTALLED ON THE SPINDLE if you truly want to ascertain if there is any play in the cartridge.


As YOU should be able to acknowledge by now, the cartridge bearings are trying to walk their way out of the cups as the cranks are rotated UNLESS you have a perfectly smooth pedaling motion ... which you apparently do not have.

BTW. The bearings for the Over Torque cranks are (AFAIK) 6805-7.

That's roughly 15% wider ...

THAT was part of the solution to provide a more stable contact surface & to thereby mitigate the possibility of the bearings walking laterally.

----------------------------

BTW. If you were the engineer which you claim to be, then you would know that ONE reason that the CULT cartridge bearings spin so freely is because they can use a significantly lighter lube due to the probably-Grade-3-or-better spherical roundness of the individual bearings which allow the use of a lighter weight lubricant... and, if you were to lube the bearings with White Lithium or heavier grease then their response would be similar to that of comparable sized steel cartridge bearings ...


Similarly, if you were to replace the grease in steel bearing cartridges with mineral oil, then you should be able to approach the same free-spinning cranks which you think the CULT bearings provide.

I would guess that a REAL engineer would know that.

I would guess that a REAL engineer should have been able to trouble shoot the problem better than you have.



BTW. If you are REALLY an engineer AND are going to pooh-pooh my suggestion of a washer made from a milk jug cap to solve YOUR crank's problem, then I would think that you would not have even bothered to use the comparatively soft silicon for your DIY shim since you should know that it will lose its dimensional integrity sooner-rather-than-later.


Regardless, how does including a "plastic" washer preclude torquing the connecting bolt "to Campy's recommended 60Nm"?
 

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