Mea Culpa!CAMPYBOB said:Quote by Alf:
"Now, the reason I mention this is because few people apparently complain about clicking with either FSA or Hollowtech II installations in BB86 frames..."
Uh...Mega EXO FSA cranks have generated a lot of hate on the web. It isn't just FSA and Hollowtech nor is it just BB86 or PF86.5 frames...it's ALL of the usual suspects and most of the blame has been placed squarely on the inability or desire of Chicom frame manufacturers to measure accurately for size, roundness, square shoulders, cylindricity, barreling, taper, surface finish or concentricity. Add in the fact that plastic cups and ultra-thin aluminum cups are tossed into the mix and bonding **** together or adding pre-load becomes the norm.
"(particularly relevant in the latter case since I do not believe that Shimano makes a BB86-only crankset)"
shitmaNO does make a PF86.5 BB. Mine creaks like coffin lid on "Tales From The Crypt". I'll deal with it this Fall before putting the shitmaNO-equipped Emonda winter beater back into service. Smear the Jap (Chicom-made, actually) scrap **** up with enough glue and it may be usable.
shitmaNo is among the most complained about noisemakers. Read James Huang's 'The Angry Asian' rants on shitmaNO and SCRAM PF creaking, squeaking and tweaking BB's. And external cup BB's from all the manufacturers have generated tons of complaints about unwanted noises.
I'll stick with Campy. Adding a shim washer is all it takes and unlike riding a 2-stroke 50 CC scooter or driving a Miyata...
FWIW. Let me expand on my earlier observation ...CAMPYBOB said:Alf, I would agree that the wave washer could be dropped from the assembly as long as the endplay clearance in the spindle was set close to zero or ultra-lightly under preload.
My theory was that the entire spindle assembly (crankset and bearings) was walking left and right, creating the clicking. Just over TDC on the left pedal (my stronger leg) and ticking was insufferable. Oddly enough it only clicked at certain RPM's and while under power such as accelerating hard or climbing. With steady state power and a smooth pedal stroke it rarely clicked.
I check crank arm clearance with feeler stock on the off-drive side. I set endplay so close to zero it's impossible for me to detect. I induce BB movement in the frame without feeling any endplay. I suppose I could mount an indicator to the downtube or the seat tube, but even then I would be suspect of what movement I was measuring...frame flex or BB play.
Yeah, I was also a little concerned that my silicone rubber may get smooched out of shape and end up somewhere where it should not be.CAMPYBOB said:Quote by Colnago:
"Looking at this design, if you are taking up the play with shims, why keep the wave washer? All it does is adds extra friction to the bearings."
Your rubber spacer is adding some measure of preload plus acting as sound deadening material. It should work well until it (might?) self-destructs.
Nope, the silicone washer is inside the BB opposite to chainring side. One face mates against the bearing housing (cup) stop right next to the seal the other face mates against the wave washer. The wave washer seems to retain it nice and snug in place.CAMPYBOB said:Alf:
"So, the presumed-by-me key to mitigating the click is to ensure that the BB shell is as close to spec as is humanly possible ... closer to NASA specs than not."
One of my BB shell's was at high limit, slightly over high limit is spots. It still made the noise.
Colnago:
"I have pressed in cups, so the shimming has to be done inside the BB."
The silicone washer is still located outboard of the off-drive side bearing though, correct?
Because I don't have a frame which uses press fit bearings, I don't understand why you can't put your "shim" in the BB's seat & the crank's respective BB cup ...ColnagoC60 said:I have pressed in cups, so the shimming has to be done inside the BB.
Well ...CAMPYBOB said:Alf:
"So, the presumed-by-me key to mitigating the click is to ensure that the BB shell is as close to spec as is humanly possible ... closer to NASA specs than not."
One of my BB shell's was at high limit, slightly over high limit is spots. It still made the noise.
OY!CAMPYBOB said:Quote by Alf:
"AND SO, the easiest way to prevent the "click" is to simply EXCLUDE the Wavy Washer & superfluous Wire Clip to achieve the 144.5mm measurement which will prevent the Hirth Coupling from being able to move."
Alf, it is NOT the Hirth joint that is moving. The whole damned crankset is walking left-to-right and back.
As the OP explained, one can push and pull on at least some of the cranksets and measure the endplay that is causing the noise. No one is going to be able to flex a properly torqued Hirth joint with a bare hand.
From the Rogue Mechanic's website regarding the axial play in Campagnolo Ultra-Torque crankset noise:
Posted on April 15, 2014 at 12:42 PM
I had him beat by 7 years when I 'fixed' the noise in my 2007 Douglas/Chorus.
And as far as $45 for a shim kit? And $50 if'n yer bike has an Eyetalian BB???!!! WTF?!?!
Well, that's capitalism at work. Those shims can be had for half that money or less. Or for free, if you want to cut up some plastic/rubber as our OP did.
The hirth coupling, or its bolt has no relevance to what we are discussing.alfeng said:Because, I fully understand that it is the lateral movement which either causes or exacerbates the clicking problem ...
BUT, you are either failing to follow what I am saying or you are reluctant to refute-or-validate my observation that ...
- imparting a seeming minuscule 1mm gap in the Hirth Joint removes the stability of the joint
- I don't now how sloppy a Hirth Coupling is on a Helicopter's shaft, but I doubt it is has any play if properly fitted & adjusted
- because as soon as there is a gap between the halves of a Hirth Coupling then the two, interfacing halves become gears
and theoretically, any pair of gears can strip- obviously, not advisable.
- regardless, if you join the two halves of a UT crankset and then back off the connecting bolt by ~1mm so that the hypothetical Q-Factor is 145.5mm, you will see that you can wiggle the two halves ...
- a little wave motion here, a little wave motion there, and soon you can have a seiche (!) ...
- or, in the case of the UT crankset & BB, a clicking sound.
- if nothing else, that motion exacerbates any lateral motion which the Wavy Washer (a spring) can then allow which can otherwise be described as a teeter-tottering motion of the two halves
- If nothing else, the connecting bolt is knocking against the retaining wall inside the spindle when there is a 1mm-or-greater gap
- AND SO, I would consider cutting a soft plastic washer from a milk jug cap to supplement the existing connecting bolt's washer.
BTW. If, by chance, the installation which yields a 144.5mm Q-Factor begins clicking at some future point in time, then I'll try adding one-or-more 0.2mm (soda can) spacers between the cups & the frame rather than pony up for the Rogue Mechanic's spacers.
ColnagoC60 said:The hirth coupling, or its bolt has no relevance to what we are discussing.
What do you think would happen to a HDPE (High Density Polyethylene milk jug washer) when torquing the coupling bolt to Campy's recommended up to 60Nm?
If that bolt comes loose, something which the bike shops often encounter coming from home mechanics, the coupling fails and the crank is destroyed.
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