the kilo?
- Thread starter davenelson
- Start date
There apears to be two types of Kilo rider:
1. the sprint type rider that produces high power outputs initialy (i.e. good acceleration) with a fall in power towards the end of the race.
2. the 'endurance' type that produces a much smaller peak power, yet has little drop off in power.
As a 'real' endurance rider the average, peak and final power outputs of the Kilo riders are all above the peak power that I am able to produce in any condition!!!!
But I wouldn't mind racing Quealy over 4 KM!!!
1. the sprint type rider that produces high power outputs initialy (i.e. good acceleration) with a fall in power towards the end of the race.
2. the 'endurance' type that produces a much smaller peak power, yet has little drop off in power.
As a 'real' endurance rider the average, peak and final power outputs of the Kilo riders are all above the peak power that I am able to produce in any condition!!!!
But I wouldn't mind racing Quealy over 4 KM!!!
As VeloFlash said, that speed would make you a good (even great) Kilo rider! I can't believe you can accelerate *staying seated* and quickly get up to and hold 34mph for 1minute. Even the Kilo guys stand and hammer it. Is the road you use slightly downhill 1-2%?
As efforts increase in duration from 10 seconds there is a greater amount of energy from aerobic energy systems. Realy any effort over 1 minute could be seen as an aerobic activity given that most of the energy for that activity comes from aerobic sources. Although, quite often its the anaerobic capacity of the riders that decides who wins.
To break the world record you need to average 60km per hour for 1 minute. As you ride from a standing start, peak speed will be above 60km per hour. Although he can hold 34 mph for a minute, it might be the case that his 'race is over' by the time he hit 30 miles per hour. Some of the GB guys are getting 1 min 1 seconds and they are performing very quick (I think 17 second off the top of my head) 250 mtrs off a standing start!
Veloflash, TT'er, 2LAP:
The section of road I use has a short hill that gets me up to speed, which is usually about 20 mph when the road flattens out. The road is very level, it's where I usually do my road sprinting. I wish I had a PT file I could upload, but I don't.
A few years ago, I was out training and a rider on another team was coming up on me just as I turned around at the top of the hill I mentioned earlier. He tried jumping on my wheel, and I accelerated hard. I held about 28.5-29 mph through the section and dropped him.
I decided to try those hardcore, "all out" VO2 intervals using this section of road to start with. This spring, I was lucky to hold 30 mph for the distance. 34 mph represents my best average for the distance, but I will start to fade at 45-50 seconds or so usually. Some days it might only be 32-33 mph. There are three distinct phases to the first 60 seconds: The initial acceleration, maintaining speed, then the fight to maintain speed. At the end of the "fade" I downshift and transition to a much slower pace for several more minutes.
I train extensively using seated accelerations. I almost never stand to accelerate anymore which is the way I used to always do it. It takes about 10-12 seconds to get from 20 mph to 32-34 mph. The acceleration hurts the most, once you are at speed it's not that bad holding it.
My speedometer is properly calibrated, and measured against actual Army Corps Of Engineer road mile markers. From a starting resting (on the bike) HR of around 100 bpm or so, I can hit max heart rate (180 bpm) in 45 seconds, the effort is so intense.
When I first started doing them, I shut down at 45-50 seconds and wanted to puke, I couldn't go any more. Then, I forced myself to float on the pedals when I would normally shut down. After 10-20 seconds of "recovery" I would force myself to pedal for a couple of minutes or so.
Eventually, my legs would still get fried, but my breathing and heart rate were lower at the end of the first minute. I would shift into a 53x19 and was amazed I could pedal the gear pretty good for a few minutes. I got up to a 53x17 and 5 minutes total for these intervals.
I practice hard accelerations all the time. On all of my moderate/hard training rides, regardless of training task, I will accelerate seated to well over 30 mph and hold it as long as possible at least once per ride.
I set 30 mph as a minimum standard for accelerations. I prefer to do these at the end of a 1-2 hour ride to simulate race-like finishing efforts with fatigued muscles. It's extremely hard to finish off 30 minutes of TT effort with a 30 second effort at 30+ mph.
On longer rides (3-6 hours) you could do 1-2 accelerations like these every hour. Start from a cruising roll, then staying completely seated, accelerate as hard as possible, and hold your max speed as long as possible, usually 20-60 seconds
I'm highly motivated by cadence in a certain gear. For example, using a 53x13, I will brutally mash the pedals until I see at least 94+ rpm, then hold it as long as I can. Because these are so violent and painful, It's best to look at the meter and not go by feel, since the natural tendency is to shut down several mph sooner.
Most riders don't train this way, but I like it!!! I think this is the best way to improve VO2 max.
The section of road I use has a short hill that gets me up to speed, which is usually about 20 mph when the road flattens out. The road is very level, it's where I usually do my road sprinting. I wish I had a PT file I could upload, but I don't.
A few years ago, I was out training and a rider on another team was coming up on me just as I turned around at the top of the hill I mentioned earlier. He tried jumping on my wheel, and I accelerated hard. I held about 28.5-29 mph through the section and dropped him.
I decided to try those hardcore, "all out" VO2 intervals using this section of road to start with. This spring, I was lucky to hold 30 mph for the distance. 34 mph represents my best average for the distance, but I will start to fade at 45-50 seconds or so usually. Some days it might only be 32-33 mph. There are three distinct phases to the first 60 seconds: The initial acceleration, maintaining speed, then the fight to maintain speed. At the end of the "fade" I downshift and transition to a much slower pace for several more minutes.
I train extensively using seated accelerations. I almost never stand to accelerate anymore which is the way I used to always do it. It takes about 10-12 seconds to get from 20 mph to 32-34 mph. The acceleration hurts the most, once you are at speed it's not that bad holding it.
My speedometer is properly calibrated, and measured against actual Army Corps Of Engineer road mile markers. From a starting resting (on the bike) HR of around 100 bpm or so, I can hit max heart rate (180 bpm) in 45 seconds, the effort is so intense.
When I first started doing them, I shut down at 45-50 seconds and wanted to puke, I couldn't go any more. Then, I forced myself to float on the pedals when I would normally shut down. After 10-20 seconds of "recovery" I would force myself to pedal for a couple of minutes or so.
Eventually, my legs would still get fried, but my breathing and heart rate were lower at the end of the first minute. I would shift into a 53x19 and was amazed I could pedal the gear pretty good for a few minutes. I got up to a 53x17 and 5 minutes total for these intervals.
I practice hard accelerations all the time. On all of my moderate/hard training rides, regardless of training task, I will accelerate seated to well over 30 mph and hold it as long as possible at least once per ride.
I set 30 mph as a minimum standard for accelerations. I prefer to do these at the end of a 1-2 hour ride to simulate race-like finishing efforts with fatigued muscles. It's extremely hard to finish off 30 minutes of TT effort with a 30 second effort at 30+ mph.
On longer rides (3-6 hours) you could do 1-2 accelerations like these every hour. Start from a cruising roll, then staying completely seated, accelerate as hard as possible, and hold your max speed as long as possible, usually 20-60 seconds
I'm highly motivated by cadence in a certain gear. For example, using a 53x13, I will brutally mash the pedals until I see at least 94+ rpm, then hold it as long as I can. Because these are so violent and painful, It's best to look at the meter and not go by feel, since the natural tendency is to shut down several mph sooner.
Most riders don't train this way, but I like it!!! I think this is the best way to improve VO2 max.
The three phases you describe are typical of maximal work and correlate nicely with anaerobic metabolism.
The initial acceleration being using and depleting your ATP-PC system, the maintaining speed caused by a drop in power as you use your anaerobic glycolysis and the fight to maintain speed the caused by acidosis as your capacity for anaerobic glycolysis is reached.
The 45 to 50 seconds is also the 'textbook' response for fatigue of anaerobic glycolysis during a maximal effort. All in all that makes the Kilo a very hard effort, particularly the first 10 seconds and the last 15 seconds!!!!
Perhaps I have read you wrong, but IMHO a few maximal 60 second efforts wouldn't be 'the best way to improve VO2 max' rather it would be a 'good' way of impoving anaerobic capacity (given that the work performed specificaly targets this).
While I think that your session is great, I think you are missing one important point about the 1km TT on the track the standing start (standing refering to 'standing still' rather than 'not seated'). A national level 1km rider in the UK averages 55+ km/h for one minute, having started at 0 km/h. I think in your efforts over 1 minute you start at 20 mph and go to 34 mph, a standing start would add another dimention to the session and would be 'better' training should you want to race a 1km on the track.
I was just about to mention this too. I think we've both read J-Mat's post the same way.
If you want to improve VO2 max, then you need to be riding at a somewhat lower intensity than you appear to be doing, and for a far greater period of time.
As a personal preference i like to ride hills (180 to 300 secs) at a power that is either equivalent to minimum required to elicit my VO2 max or at a power equal to my MAP.
Depending on the duration, and the fatigue i've been inducing over periods of time, my HR will either max out or be significantly below my max (by ~ 20 b/min).
Ric
Is 3 minutes the minimum time necessary to improve VO2max? Obviously they will be higher intensity efforts than 6minutes? Should the effort be such that you can (only) just manage to complete the interval with legs burning and form starting to go off a little (not too badly though)? Or is that too intense?
What's your opinion on Dean Golich's method of starting these VO2max intervals with a flat out sprint, gradually fading as the effort goes on, but pushing constantly to maintain the highest possible wattage? Some coaches say maintain an even effort that you can only just maintain for the duration, Golich (and some CTS coaches) say an all out sprint start held as long as possible. What would the difference be?
Would there be any difference in muscle fibre recruitment/training with the two methods, or are both utilising fast-twitch muscles because of the hard VO2max efforts? Or will only Golich's method utilise the fast twitch muscles?
Actualy, you are trying to accumulate as much time as you can @ VO2 max. Given that it might take your body (HR and o2 consumption) to reach that level, you need a few minutes to reach a relative 'steady state' at that level. Whether your effort is 3 mins or 20 mins, the intensity at VO2 max is always the same! The effort should be at the same intensity for the whole duration (i.e. power at VO2 max or HR near to max).
DG's session would also improve VO2 max, but I would argue that a more controled session would be better as it would be less demoralising and you could spend more time at VO2 max due to less fatigue. If you do a constant load session, the aerobic energy system is maxed and added to slowly by the anerobic system. DG's session you fatigue the anaerobic system and try to keep the aerobic system maxed (which may be hard due to local fatigue in the muscles (i.e. acidosis)).
Yes there would be differences due to the recruitment of the different energy systems in different ways and the specific conditions within the muscles (e.g. different lactic acid, neuromusculr fatique, etc.). During both sessions all of your muscles fibre populations would be recruited and as you fatigue this recruitment (i.e. EMG) would increase - I wouldn't worry too much about muscle fibre types as you can't change them and you can't isolate them during training.
Oh, and by the way, VO2 max isn't very important in the world of sprinting; if it were Paula Radcliffe would run a mean 100m from standing.
Originally posted by TTer, i responded with >>
Is 3 minutes the minimum time necessary to improve VO2max? Obviously they will be higher intensity efforts than 6minutes? Should the effort be such that you can (only) just manage to complete the interval with legs burning and form starting to go off a little (not too badly though)? Or is that too intense?
>>it does take some time for your body to reach VO2max, and i feel that 3 mins is a good place to start. with shorter, higher intensity efforts you might not reach VO2 max.
What's your opinion on Dean Golich's method of starting these VO2max intervals with a flat out sprint, gradually fading as the effort goes on, but pushing constantly to maintain the highest possible wattage?
>> i have plenty of respect for DG and do *occasionally* schedule intervals like this. however, by and large for VO2 max intervals i much prefer a more constant load effort. More work tends to be accumulated this way.
Some coaches say maintain an even effort that you can only just maintain for the duration, Golich (and some CTS coaches) say an all out sprint start held as long as possible. What would the difference be?
>>I find (i.e., myself and riders that i coach) with DG approach, a drop off in power occurs and this leads to less work being done.
Would there be any difference in muscle fibre recruitment/training with the two methods, or are both utilising fast-twitch muscles because of the hard VO2max efforts? Or will only Golich's method utilise the fast twitch muscles?
ric
Is 3 minutes the minimum time necessary to improve VO2max? Obviously they will be higher intensity efforts than 6minutes? Should the effort be such that you can (only) just manage to complete the interval with legs burning and form starting to go off a little (not too badly though)? Or is that too intense?
>>it does take some time for your body to reach VO2max, and i feel that 3 mins is a good place to start. with shorter, higher intensity efforts you might not reach VO2 max.
What's your opinion on Dean Golich's method of starting these VO2max intervals with a flat out sprint, gradually fading as the effort goes on, but pushing constantly to maintain the highest possible wattage?
>> i have plenty of respect for DG and do *occasionally* schedule intervals like this. however, by and large for VO2 max intervals i much prefer a more constant load effort. More work tends to be accumulated this way.
Some coaches say maintain an even effort that you can only just maintain for the duration, Golich (and some CTS coaches) say an all out sprint start held as long as possible. What would the difference be?
>>I find (i.e., myself and riders that i coach) with DG approach, a drop off in power occurs and this leads to less work being done.
Would there be any difference in muscle fibre recruitment/training with the two methods, or are both utilising fast-twitch muscles because of the hard VO2max efforts? Or will only Golich's method utilise the fast twitch muscles?
ric
TT'er, everybody:
Just so there isn't any confusion about these posts on the kilo, I'm talking about doing these 60 seconds efforts as the first part of a 3-5 minute VO2 max interval.
DG is known for these types of intervals, and where I got the idea for them. They are hard but very simple.
You can start with an out of the saddle sprint if you like and really go "all out" to start (10-20 seconds), then settle into whatever pace for the duration of the interval.
I start from a roll to make it easier on my left knee and modulate the effort over roughly a minute. Whichever way you do them, the idea is to blow up and crack completely, then keep the effort going.
These intervals overload the CV system so rapidly that the subsequent slower portion of the interval at whatever speed still places a huge demand on the heart as the body tires to recover.
Effort is most important, speed is not. Even if you are only going 10 mph, as long as you are breathing rapidly and working at your limits, you will make excellent progress.
You can improve VO2 max other ways, but these are very effective, possibly the most effective, even though mean power output may (or not?) be less than a "normal" 3-5 minute effort.
DG also likes 3-5 day blocks. Doing just one (max quality) of these intervals every day for 3-5 days in a row in conjunction with some sustained TT efforts of 20-60 minutes would form a very potent training stimulus. Recovery is paramount at all times, especially when training like this.
Man, just try them and see how it goes. I think you will find them refreshing compared to "regular" intervals, and will improve your performance. They will also help maximal FT muscle recruitment and development that lower intensity intervals won't. Hard sprints maximally recruit FT fibers.
It's also refreshing to know that you can accelerate to well over 30 mph, hold it long enough to drop most if not all riders, then settle into a sustained high pace that the dropped rider(s) will never come close to. Perfect for dropping those pesky breakaway companions, especially if they can sprint!!!
No matter how fit you are, if you don't train like this, you will have an extremely difficult time staying on the wheel of a rider who does train like this when he attacks.
DG coached Norm Alvis (U.S. hour record holder) and Mari Holden, (world TT champion). To hold either title, you obviously would have to have a very high VO2 max. Could these "flat out" intervals have been the key to their success??? Perhaps!!!
Just so there isn't any confusion about these posts on the kilo, I'm talking about doing these 60 seconds efforts as the first part of a 3-5 minute VO2 max interval.
DG is known for these types of intervals, and where I got the idea for them. They are hard but very simple.
You can start with an out of the saddle sprint if you like and really go "all out" to start (10-20 seconds), then settle into whatever pace for the duration of the interval.
I start from a roll to make it easier on my left knee and modulate the effort over roughly a minute. Whichever way you do them, the idea is to blow up and crack completely, then keep the effort going.
These intervals overload the CV system so rapidly that the subsequent slower portion of the interval at whatever speed still places a huge demand on the heart as the body tires to recover.
Effort is most important, speed is not. Even if you are only going 10 mph, as long as you are breathing rapidly and working at your limits, you will make excellent progress.
You can improve VO2 max other ways, but these are very effective, possibly the most effective, even though mean power output may (or not?) be less than a "normal" 3-5 minute effort.
DG also likes 3-5 day blocks. Doing just one (max quality) of these intervals every day for 3-5 days in a row in conjunction with some sustained TT efforts of 20-60 minutes would form a very potent training stimulus. Recovery is paramount at all times, especially when training like this.
Man, just try them and see how it goes. I think you will find them refreshing compared to "regular" intervals, and will improve your performance. They will also help maximal FT muscle recruitment and development that lower intensity intervals won't. Hard sprints maximally recruit FT fibers.
It's also refreshing to know that you can accelerate to well over 30 mph, hold it long enough to drop most if not all riders, then settle into a sustained high pace that the dropped rider(s) will never come close to. Perfect for dropping those pesky breakaway companions, especially if they can sprint!!!
No matter how fit you are, if you don't train like this, you will have an extremely difficult time staying on the wheel of a rider who does train like this when he attacks.
DG coached Norm Alvis (U.S. hour record holder) and Mari Holden, (world TT champion). To hold either title, you obviously would have to have a very high VO2 max. Could these "flat out" intervals have been the key to their success??? Perhaps!!!
J-MAT, this thread is about the 1km TT on the track and this is a sprint event from a standing start lasting 1 minute for world class riders to about 1 min 20 seconds for riders with some training.
As such you VO2 max isn't going to help you out here, nor is sustaining 30 mph for a minute or longer, there is no one to attack you (as you said in your post) because its ridden alone and it has nothing to do with Norm Alvis or MAri Holden as they are endurance athletes. Perhaps you should check out a 1KM sprint on the track, you would realise that while your session might be good for endurance it wouldn't be that great for a 1KM TT.
I think you have your wires crossed, riding a 1km track TT (the topic of this thread) is very different from riding the first km of an interval at 30+ mph.
2LAP:
Thanks for telling me what a "track" and "kilo" are. I had no idea people actually rode their bicycles on a "track." Very interesting, you learn new things all the time!!! Maybe someday I will go to one of these "tracks" and see what the riders do on them.
You might have noticed the thread changed a bit. TT'er was talking about Dean Golich's flat out intervals, and I do a hard 60 second effort to start which is somewhat like a kilo effort.
Surely, you can see the direction the thread has taken. It's not really about the kilo anymore as much as it's about improving VO2 max which the DG intervals performed the way I describe will do very nicely.
Thanks for telling me what a "track" and "kilo" are. I had no idea people actually rode their bicycles on a "track." Very interesting, you learn new things all the time!!! Maybe someday I will go to one of these "tracks" and see what the riders do on them.
You might have noticed the thread changed a bit. TT'er was talking about Dean Golich's flat out intervals, and I do a hard 60 second effort to start which is somewhat like a kilo effort.
Surely, you can see the direction the thread has taken. It's not really about the kilo anymore as much as it's about improving VO2 max which the DG intervals performed the way I describe will do very nicely.
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