The Lifting Apologists....
- Thread starter Lucy_Aspenwind
- Start date
Found this on velonews and it serves as a bit of a case in point:
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Why can't I climb?
Dear Joe,
I'm a recreational roadie who spends some time on a mountain bike as well. I've been actively riding for four years. I put in 100-150 miles a week, with mostly mixed rides - by virtue of living in remote Wyoming, I don't get many flat, easy spins!
Here is my challenge. I feel fit, but I cannot climb hills. I'm 5'11", approximately 160 pounds, resting HR of 44, no chronic illness, and I can't ride up hills! I do well on the flats between any rises, which means I make my pulls when riding with a group, I can spin around 22-24 mph, and am reasonably comfortable at that pace for many miles. But as soon as the pitch increases I shut down.
My primary riding partner, an ex-pro, has quizzed me about what my body feels like when this happens. Basically, I shut down. I don't feel pain, but I cannot continue riding at a strong pace. My muscles feel like they are not getting enough oxygen and my RR goes very high (never measured). I slow down to a slower pace, and push hard to the top - once there, I can pick my pace back up and have to fight to get back to a group. This has not improved, even with many miles on my bike and with consistent riding.
So, do I just need to train differently (strength, cardio), eat differently (change my intake before riding), hydrate differently, lose weight, or is there some underlying cardiovascular issue that could predispose me to being a sloth on the hills?
Thanks for taking a stab.
J.R. in Wyoming
Dear J.R.,
Your inability to climb well can be improved if you find the key limiter and incorporate an objective plan to improve your fitness in progressive stages.
In most cases cyclists looking to climb better need to improve force and muscular endurance. You first need to have sufficient force in order to push hard on the pedals as the grade of the road increases. Ideally, the force-specific workouts are started within the preparation phase and end within the base phase. You can build force in the weight room with a cycling-specific routine and periodized program. Force can also be developed on the bike with low rpm (below 70 rpm), seated hill (or headwind) efforts. If you do force work on the bike, begin with two-minute efforts and progress, over several weeks, to six-minute intervals with full recoveries. Staying seated will also develop your hip flexors, which can help your climbing economy. Be cautious with these intervals if you have knee issues, or do not do them at all.
After you have developed sufficient force you can start to incorporate muscular endurance workouts by starting with six-minute intervals at heart-rate zone 3 (10-15 percent below lactate threshold). Gradually increase the number of reps within a workout over several weeks. Your goal is to progress to one solid effort of 45-60 minutes of zone 3 intensity. Once you have reached this goal, develop a workout once a week that incorporates heart-rate zone 4 (within 10 beats of lactate threshold) into six-minute intervals, with two-minute recoveries. This will dramatically improve your climbing ability if you have first developed force, economy and muscular endurance.
You need to determine which basic ability is lacking and what level of intensity you need to emphasize. The best way to improve your climbing is with a program that covers many months, starting with a preparation phase, moving to a base phase, and ending with a build period.
You mention body weight as a possible limiter. While I'm sure losing a few pounds might help, I don't think your 2.2 pounds per inch of body weight (you are 5'11" and 160 pounds) is of major concern. Assuming endurance is not an issue, and you have problems on climbs even early in a ride, this leaves the possibilities of economy (skills), force and muscular endurance to improve.
Thanks for inquiring with us. Good luck with your training.
Dirk Friel
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Note the reader specifically asked Friel for advice on how to climb better - not how to be more well-rounded, or less "one-dimensional" (whatever that means). Also said individual had been riding for several years consistently - as opposed to a couch potato who just jumped on a bike one day.
The section I put in italics is particularly revealing - he is saying that the rider needs to develop enough force to pedal up hills when we all know such forces are very low.
***********************************************************
Why can't I climb?
Dear Joe,
I'm a recreational roadie who spends some time on a mountain bike as well. I've been actively riding for four years. I put in 100-150 miles a week, with mostly mixed rides - by virtue of living in remote Wyoming, I don't get many flat, easy spins!
Here is my challenge. I feel fit, but I cannot climb hills. I'm 5'11", approximately 160 pounds, resting HR of 44, no chronic illness, and I can't ride up hills! I do well on the flats between any rises, which means I make my pulls when riding with a group, I can spin around 22-24 mph, and am reasonably comfortable at that pace for many miles. But as soon as the pitch increases I shut down.
My primary riding partner, an ex-pro, has quizzed me about what my body feels like when this happens. Basically, I shut down. I don't feel pain, but I cannot continue riding at a strong pace. My muscles feel like they are not getting enough oxygen and my RR goes very high (never measured). I slow down to a slower pace, and push hard to the top - once there, I can pick my pace back up and have to fight to get back to a group. This has not improved, even with many miles on my bike and with consistent riding.
So, do I just need to train differently (strength, cardio), eat differently (change my intake before riding), hydrate differently, lose weight, or is there some underlying cardiovascular issue that could predispose me to being a sloth on the hills?
Thanks for taking a stab.
J.R. in Wyoming
Dear J.R.,
Your inability to climb well can be improved if you find the key limiter and incorporate an objective plan to improve your fitness in progressive stages.
In most cases cyclists looking to climb better need to improve force and muscular endurance. You first need to have sufficient force in order to push hard on the pedals as the grade of the road increases. Ideally, the force-specific workouts are started within the preparation phase and end within the base phase. You can build force in the weight room with a cycling-specific routine and periodized program. Force can also be developed on the bike with low rpm (below 70 rpm), seated hill (or headwind) efforts. If you do force work on the bike, begin with two-minute efforts and progress, over several weeks, to six-minute intervals with full recoveries. Staying seated will also develop your hip flexors, which can help your climbing economy. Be cautious with these intervals if you have knee issues, or do not do them at all.
After you have developed sufficient force you can start to incorporate muscular endurance workouts by starting with six-minute intervals at heart-rate zone 3 (10-15 percent below lactate threshold). Gradually increase the number of reps within a workout over several weeks. Your goal is to progress to one solid effort of 45-60 minutes of zone 3 intensity. Once you have reached this goal, develop a workout once a week that incorporates heart-rate zone 4 (within 10 beats of lactate threshold) into six-minute intervals, with two-minute recoveries. This will dramatically improve your climbing ability if you have first developed force, economy and muscular endurance.
You need to determine which basic ability is lacking and what level of intensity you need to emphasize. The best way to improve your climbing is with a program that covers many months, starting with a preparation phase, moving to a base phase, and ending with a build period.
You mention body weight as a possible limiter. While I'm sure losing a few pounds might help, I don't think your 2.2 pounds per inch of body weight (you are 5'11" and 160 pounds) is of major concern. Assuming endurance is not an issue, and you have problems on climbs even early in a ride, this leaves the possibilities of economy (skills), force and muscular endurance to improve.
Thanks for inquiring with us. Good luck with your training.
Dirk Friel
**********************************************************
Note the reader specifically asked Friel for advice on how to climb better - not how to be more well-rounded, or less "one-dimensional" (whatever that means). Also said individual had been riding for several years consistently - as opposed to a couch potato who just jumped on a bike one day.
The section I put in italics is particularly revealing - he is saying that the rider needs to develop enough force to pedal up hills when we all know such forces are very low.
RipVanCommittee said:
it *is* evil. or at least it was when i dropped some weights on my foot once.
i'm moving house again soon (i hope). i dunno, i guess i move once every 5 years. seems like overkill doing weights for that. oh! hang on a second the removal men actually lift our belongings, and they don't look like they've been near a gym in their life.
as for weed pulling... even my arthritic fingers can pull weeds, without doing weights. actually, the best thing i've found to keep my fingers and wrist mobile is playing the guitar (generally, very badly).
ric
Can we start a lifting forum or something. Oh, and a max HR forum. Then the 3 or 4 of us left can get on blissfully unaware.
True dat. Maybe someday we'll get back to a coaching model where coaches train riders how to race - not just be fit.acoggan said:
It never ceases to amaze me that the current crop of virtual cycling coaches who jumped in over the last decade never see, ride or race with their clients. Coaching by email, downloaded files and an occasional phone call works for experienced P12 riders but not other cats. No doubt virtual coaching clients will get very fit and perform better but they will also get their ass waxed by a smarter cagier less-fit rider every time in mass start events.
Just my 2 pesos
Have you given any thought to how lifting could improve your guitar playing??ric_stern/RST said:
Funny, I had a similar weight room experience--but it involved me dropping a 50 lb. plate on my wife's foot!
As I said---LOW cost (well, for me, at least....)
RipVanCommittee said:Have you given any thought to how lifting could improve your guitar playing??
well, it couldn't make it any worse. (well it could, but that because i wouldn't have time if i did any weights)
i bet that made her happy, or not!
ric
ummm....not really!ric_stern/RST said:
This couldn't be more OT (sorry)--but if you want to improve your guitar playing, just copy this guy
: http://youtube.com/watch?v=FqBlpd4mxAAOK, back to cycling......
RipVanCommittee said:ummm....not really!
This couldn't be more OT (sorry)--but if you want to improve your guitar playing, just copy this guy
OK, back to cycling......
not bad... but Django did it with only half a hand!
and, like, if i could manage one bar like that, i'd be a happy bunny.
ric
Ric,ric_stern/RST said:
I've seen several of your posts where you say a "fit cyclist" doesn't need weight training. I haven't seen any literature that conclusively proves the problem with weight training one way or another. If you know of some scientific articles that really prove the point, I'd love to read them. I guess that really depends on the definition of "fit". I spend every season trying to become stronger and more fit than the preceeding season. Don't we all?
But it makes sense that some reasonable core strength training is useful for cyclists. For example, cycling doesn't strengthen the abdominal muscles very efficiently. Yet, when you're on the drops you're pushing against your abs, similar to how a recumbant rider pushes against the back of his/her seat. The abs also help support your back and take pressure off of your hands and shoulders. So it makes sense to do some basic strength building off the bike, especially during the off season.
You can't possiblly argue that all forms of cross training hinders performance. Even if we limit the discussion to just weight/resistance training. Part of the benifit of resistance training is stronger tendons and supporting muscles & tissues. Anyone who's ever had an IT-band injury (and understood it's cause) will tell you how important strong supporting tissue is. Of course, I'm not suggesting all weight training programs are equivalent, but there has to be a way to use it (like any other form of cross training) to benifit cycling.
BtonRider said:
I think there's some great cross training available to cyclists. If you're a road racer or TTer, then some great cross training could be MTB, Cyclo X or track. These would be the best forms of cross training.
I've said that weight training doesn't increase endurance cycling performance in trained cyclists, which it doesn't. this is shown in several papers, and via first principles.
There isn't *any* research showing that weight training increases ECP in trained cyclists (but some research in untrained people).
i spend every season hoping to get more aerobically powerful. i've never thought or cared about getting stronger as 1) my daily life/work/etc doesn't depend on maximal force production, and 2) my cycling isn't dependent upon maximal force production either.
I coach up to 20 cyclists at anyone time. in those last 8 years, the only people who have injured themself is via rider/road, or rider/car interaction. This applies to me, and my friends who also cycle.
on the other hand, i have a couple of friends who don't cycle but workout in the gym with weights and they're always injuring themself.
actually, one rider i coach did injure himself. but that involved him not following my training and *hugely* stepping up the training due to sudden good weather. i think he tried to quadruple his normal training hours in one week, and ended up with a sore back, sore underneath, and sore muscles, which involved him seeing a physio. a more gentle step up in training ensued.
ric
ric_stern/RST said:
Happened to me this week and its turning out to be a huge setback for my cycling goals as I have not been able to train on the spin bike and probably will not be able ride this weekend.As you say I have a lot of injuries because of the risk of progressive lifting. I know very few people train with this type of load, but to be progressive with the resistance load there is risk involved. I pay special attention to my form and technique, but injuries still happen.
Most significant injuries that have occured in the past 6 years.
Muscle strain/torn fibers:
2 on my right quadricep
2 on my left quadricep
2 on my right hamstring
2 on my left hamstring
Other injuries:
rotator cuff
2 times inflamed/bulging disc (1 occured this past Monday - current rehab)
I feel pretty blessed because I have friends that have had far worse. Like torn pectorals or rotator cuff injuries that required surgery.
My one significant bike injury so far was with the pavement typical road rash with a hematoma that had to be drained 3 times, but I was able to continue riding during recovery.
if i have deided to lift as i think that i am a very scrawnt guy and i need some muscle bulk to protect me when i crash/in sprints etc would anyone give me some advice i.e.Felt_Rider said:
As you say I have a lot of injuries because of the risk of progressive lifting. I know very few people train with this type of load, but to be progressive with the resistance load there is risk involved. I pay special attention to my form and technique, but injuries still happen.
Most significant injuries that have occured in the past 6 years.
Muscle strain/torn fibers:
2 on my right quadricep
2 on my left quadricep
2 on my right hamstring
2 on my left hamstring
Other injuries:
rotator cuff
2 times inflamed/bulging disc (1 occured this past Monday - current rehab)
I feel pretty blessed because I have friends that have had far worse. Like torn pectorals or rotator cuff injuries that required surgery.
My one significant bike injury so far was with the pavement typical road rash with a hematoma that had to be drained 3 times, but I was able to continue riding during recovery.
best to lift straight after riding or later in the day or on a non training day?
what to do currently i do 3x12 dips, lat pull doen chest press seated row and 2x12 leg press and leg curl then 1x30 single legg press single leg curl and shoulder press
then some abdo work and stuff on the core ball
hows that?
blkhotrod said:
i think you'll find others say the same, with the same caveats that i come up with.
i thought Lucy was a female.
ric
You can't be serious!acoggan said:
First, your abdominal muscles have nothing to do with your breathing. Your diaphragm is the muscle involved with your breathing. Since your diaphragm is composed of smooth muscle and not skeletal muscle, it doesn’t even fit into this discussion.
Second, your abdominal muscles are the counter-lever to your legs. It’s simple physics. Remember Newton’s Third Law? When you go on the drops you’re decreasing the angle between your legs and your trunk (which includes your abs) which increases the opposing force to your legs (remember that force is composed of vector components) and thus directs more of that energy into the pedals. That’s why people produce more power on the drops.
BtonRider said:
I'm afraid that I am.
BtonRider said:
Sorry, but you're wrong: contraction of the abdominal muscles forces the abdominal contents inward and upward, thus aiding in exhalation. Anybody can prove this to themselves by placing their hand on their stomach and feeling the abs contract when blowing out in a quick, forceful burst.
BTW, the diaphragm is a skeletal muscle (albeit a specialized one), not a smooth muscle. Moreover, the inter- and intracostal muscles, which also aid in ventilation, are also skeletal muscles.
BtonRider said:
Except perhaps when sprinting, your upper body mass alone is sufficient to counteract the forces applied to the pedals, such that no active contraction of upper body musculature is required to keep you in the saddle (although, e.g., your back muscles tend to work a little to keep you from bobbing too much). Again, this is obvious from the fact that many people have a hard time not collapsing onto the stem if they take their hands off of the handlebars and try to ride that way for an extended period of time. If, as you claim, the upward force vector on the torso was so great that abdominal muscle contraction was required to prevent "take off", then letting go of the handlebars would cause you to ride up out of the saddle, not fall down/forward off of it.
One other point: the contraction of upper body muscles can add to power output only to the extent that the hip/pelvis move in space. That joint isn't completely stationary with respect to the crank/b.b., but it is essentially so, such that even when sprinting (and thus really yanking on the handlebars, etc.), >90% of the power is still generated by the lower limbs.
You just pegged one of my biggest complaints about Carmichael. He (like you) site "recent research", but fails to site it. I'm a scientist so I appreciate references, since they can help solidify one's argument. Unfortunately, It seems that most people wave their hands when it comes to giving evidence for their argument, so let me demonstate what a reference is supposed to look like.ric_stern/RST said:
Izquierdo M et al. J Strength Cond Res. 2003 Feb;17(1):129-39. "These data indicate that strength training results in a significant improvement in maximal and submaximal endurance during the first 8 weeks of strength training in both age groups." The paper does state it depends on the conditioning of the subject, so that supports your argument that the fittness of the subject is important. My problem is, I don't know if I'm "fit/trained" by the standards of this studyhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ubmed_AbstractPlus&term="Izquierdo+M"[Author] or the ones you refer to, so why not use weight training to help me. If I'm not "fit/trained" I'll benifit. If I am "fit/trained," wieght training won't hurt me unless I put on unnecessary weight.
If you know of a paper that contradicts this one I'd like to read it.
I think you just inadvertently made the best point about weight/resistance training. I've done weight training for 12 years and I've never been injured. Yet when I took up running I was injured in the first 6 months. The difference was my coaching. Sticking to a WELL DESIGNED program is just as important in weight training as it is in cycling. It's crucial to progress slowly in weight training since tendons don't grow as quickly as muscle. I will conceed that cycling is more forgiving when someone overdoes it, though.ric_stern/RST said:
