The new Team Time Trial rules are AWESOME!!!

[marv800]

These new TTT rules for time lost by losing teams are great. I think they more accurately reflect the spirit of competition and preserves the integrity of the Tour. I think its more than fair. I think maybe to make things even more fair, all participants from previous years should be handicapped against riders for the current year based on how they placed in the final GC. Perhaps the winner from last year should be required to be held back 5 minutes from the start of each stage. Last years second place could be held back 3 minutes, and 3rd place, 1 minute per stage.

I think these new rules really embody the true spirit of competitive cycling. The concept of punishing superior performance, conditioning, and training, all while rewarding underperfomance is perfectly in line with the Socialist attitudes of France.

 

[gntlmn]

Originally posted by marv800
These new TTT rules for time lost by losing teams are great. I think they more accurately reflect the spirit of competition and preserves the integrity of the Tour. I think its more than fair. I think maybe to make things even more fair, all participants from previous years should be handicapped against riders for the current year based on how they placed in the final GC. Perhaps the winner from last year should be required to be held back 5 minutes from the start of each stage. Last years second place could be held back 3 minutes, and 3rd place, 1 minute per stage.

I think these new rules really embody the true spirit of competitive cycling. The concept of punishing superior performance, conditioning, and training, all while rewarding underperfomance is perfectly in line with the Socialist attitudes of France.

Well, it's not quite as bad as you make it sound. Consider that the fastest team will be able to perform better in the rest of the race. That's the nature of a strong TTT team. So this just kind of lays it out there in order and makes a statement to all the teams about who has the most horsepower. The rankings are more to be feared for the rest of the Tour than for the time advantage gained directly fromt the event.

It's funny how the media made such a big deal about Heras leaving USPS last year. He's an ok time trialer, but not really that great. It's these unsung TTT heroes, the bigger the better, that really make it possible for Lance to cinch that podium spot in Paris. Heras may help in the mountains, but a mountain draft is nothing like one on the flats, and his draft, being a small man, is not going to be that impressive. Sure, he will do well in this year's Tour, but as a helper, I think he was overrated.

 

[ed073]

Not sure about that....teams starting later can be told their time splits and adjust effort accordingy. Because time is lost in 10 sec chunks, teams can meter out their effort the more info they have.

The advantage later starting teams had has grown.

Plus weaker teams with no interest in the overall can just cruise in, knowing they'll only lose a set amount of time. Effectively a day off.

 

[marv800]

Originally posted by ed073
Not sure about that....teams starting later can be told their time splits and adjust effort accordingy.

Okay in that case, why not just make impose a weight penalty for past winners? Perhaps making Lance tow a U-Haul trailer might even the race?

 

[ed073]

Originally posted by marv800
Okay in that case, why not just make impose a weight penalty for past winners? Perhaps making Lance tow a U-Haul trailer might even the race?

lol

Put him on a $299 Toys R Us mountain bike.

 

[Le_cannibale]

The new rules are TERRIBLE. If it were a normal stage, the time gaps would be the amount of time between the teams. It's not fair that a team could win but .001 of a second and get 20 seconds over the team that finished second. In the same respect, it's not fair that a team could win buy 2 minutes and only get a 20 second advantage. Jean-Marie LeBlanc and his staff tried to make it as hard as possible for a strong, well planned team to win. They want to prevent the lesser French teams from looking bad in their own race. It's pathetic that the Tour organization went to such lengths to try to prevent Lance or Tyler from winning the Tour.

 

[marv800]

Originally posted by Le_cannibale
The new rules are TERRIBLE. If it were a normal stage, the time gaps would be the amount of time between the teams. It's not fair that a team could win but .001 of a second and get 20 seconds over the team that finished second. In the same respect, it's not fair that a team could win buy 2 minutes and only get a 20 second advantage. Jean-Marie LeBlanc and his staff tried to make it as hard as possible for a strong, well planned team to win. They want to prevent the lesser French teams from looking bad in their own race. It's pathetic that the Tour organization went to such lengths to try to prevent Lance or Tyler from winning the Tour.

You make it sound as if there was some vast conspiracy amongst the the French to keep Lance, or Americans in general down. Its not like the French have something against Americans or something. The French want a fair and honest race, and for it to be won by the best man, regardless of the nation he hails from - even if it the Country of Texas! Do you really think that the French really care if a Frenchman wins their own race?

 

[Lisbon]

How in the world can you say these rules are good???? You saw the race today US Postal, they rode one of the best TTT i have seen to be 37 seconds away in 6th place at the first time check and then to pull it back to in the lead by over 1 mni at the second. That right there is a time trial and team work. They won the stage by over 1 minute. What did they get out of it? 10 seconds, that right there is ****. They deserved the whole minute of time. It's almost not worth Lance trying so hard and his team for only 10 seconds. Also with the time trial as a climb, they are giving the bad time trailist that are climbers as much advantage as possible so Lance won't win.

 

[patch70]

Originally posted by Lisbon
It's almost not worth Lance trying so hard and his team for only 10 seconds. Also with the time trial as a climb, they are giving the bad time trailist that are climbers as much advantage as possible so Lance won't win.

Don't forget the psychological damage done to the rivals after the TTT even if the time differences are small.
Even if these changes are designed purely to reduce Lance's chance of winning, he's certainly done everything he can to be in the ideal position. He knew the rules beforehand and if he is good enough (which looks very much to be the case), he will win regardless.

 

[kalen]

Originally posted by Lisbon
How in the world can you say these rules are good???? You saw the race today US Postal, they rode one of the best TTT i have seen to be 37 seconds away in 6th place at the first time check and then to pull it back to in the lead by over 1 mni at the second. That right there is a time trial and team work. They won the stage by over 1 minute. What did they get out of it? 10 seconds, that right there is ****. They deserved the whole minute of time. It's almost not worth Lance trying so hard and his team for only 10 seconds. Also with the time trial as a climb, they are giving the bad time trailist that are climbers as much advantage as possible so Lance won't win.

I´m so bored with all the complaints about the rule changes or the uphill ITT.

I think it´s better this kind of TTT (or a shorter one) than no TTT at all, don´t you think?.

People tend to forget that the tour rules and the stages are known long time before the start, so that teams can make the best possible squad.

Maybe they also put the "pavé" for the climbers, too???

Or what about the fact that there isn´t a "big" mountain stage in the pyrenees this year?

There have been much more favourable tours for climbers than this years, so please quit whinning...

 

[DeRosa_AV]

Originally posted by kalen
I´m so bored with all the complaints about the rule changes or the uphill ITT.

I think it´s better this kind of TTT (or a shorter one) than no TTT at all, don´t you think?.

People tend to forget that the tour rules and the stages are known long time before the start, so that teams can make the best possible squad.

Maybe they also put the "pavé" for the climbers, too???

Or what about the fact that there isn´t a "big" mountain stage in the pyrenees this year?

There have been much more favourable tours for climbers than this years, so please quit whinning...

I'd rather they drop the TTT completely, advantage to a single rider (LA in recent years) comes down to a teams budget and being able to afford riders who can TT and perform on the climbs. The best rider should win the tour and the TTT could effectively put the best rider out of contention on the basis he rides for a team with a smaller budget.

 

[gntlmn]

Originally posted by DeRosa_AV
I'd rather they drop the TTT completely, advantage to a single rider (LA in recent years) comes down to a teams budget and being able to afford riders who can TT and perform on the climbs. The best rider should win the tour and the TTT could effectively put the best rider out of contention on the basis he rides for a team with a smaller budget.

But that's what's happening anyway. Winning the Tour de France is virtually impossible unless you have a very strong team. The TTT just really highlights how good that team is and gives these unsung heroes their day in the sun. It makes the general public more aware of how the team members' performance makes on the team leader.

Practically speaking, Mayo saved 5 seconds with the rule change. Euskadl finished 2:35 back from USPS, the winners. That's not going to give Mayo a fighting chance to win the Tour. He lost it because his team was too weak to get him back to the peloton the day before yesterday on the cobblestone stage. If Lance had crashed, USPS is strong enough to have fought it's way back into the peloton. They weren't that far back. Other teams made their way back, but the weak TTT team, Mayo's did not. They suffered mightily trying, and this worked against them I'm sure the next day during the TTT, but they just didn't have the legs to get their leader, a Tour favorite, back into contention. Even Mayo concedes that he has most likely lost the Tour.

Everyone agrees that Mayo is a very strong GC rider, and perhaps the best climber in the Tour. But the team he has just can't time trial well enough to keep him out of danger, for one, or to get him back into the game when the inevitable crash comes when he's riding in the dangerous portion of the peloton.

In a way, the rule kind of makes sense because what it does is try to minimize the negative impact of a poor TTT time when the team leader is very strong. The case in point here is Mayo.

Oops! I just read another thread, and I see that I understated the benefit to Mayo's team. Apparently they were docked only 80 seconds when they really lost 2:35 to the leader. So they were gifted 1:15 instead of only 5 seconds. But I'm leaving it as I originally wrote it to illustrate this more clearly. My reasoning about the effects of having a strong team still hold. Mayo is not back in the Tour by getting this gift. He's still not much of a contender because he has already lost too much time.

I wonder where he would be if he were riding as team leader of USPS, all other things being equal. I suppose he still wouldn't be in yellow because of his relatively weak time trialling, but I suspect that he would be almost in yellow and relatively well rested before the Pyrenees.

 

[kalen]

Originally posted by gntlmn
But that's what's happening anyway. Winning the Tour de France is virtually impossible unless you have a very strong team. The TTT just really highlights how good that team is and gives these unsung heroes their day in the sun. It makes the general public more aware of how the team members' performance makes on the team leader.

Practically speaking, Mayo saved 5 seconds with the rule change. Euskadl finished 2:35 back from USPS, the winners. That's not going to give Mayo a fighting chance to win the Tour. He lost it because his team was too weak to get him back to the peloton the day before yesterday on the cobblestone stage. If Lance had crashed, USPS is strong enough to have fought it's way back into the peloton. They weren't that far back. Other teams made their way back, but the weak TTT team, Mayo's did not. They suffered mightily trying, and this worked against them I'm sure the next day during the TTT, but they just didn't have the legs to get their leader, a Tour favorite, back into contention. Even Mayo concedes that he has most likely lost the Tour.

Everyone agrees that Mayo is a very strong GC rider, and perhaps the best climber in the Tour. But the team he has just can't time trial well enough to keep him out of danger, for one, or to get him back into the game when the inevitable crash comes when he's riding in the dangerous portion of the peloton.

In a way, the rule kind of makes sense because what it does is try to minimize the negative impact of a poor TTT time when the team leader is very strong. The case in point here is Mayo.

And there again, the "weak" Euskaltel team.

The fact is that 4 euskaltel were involved in that crash. They were a much greater distance away than Liberty seguros when they started the chase, they catched Hushvods group (Credit Agricole) and fought almost on his own (until IBB helped) against USPS, PHONAK and TMobile firts and the sprinters teams afterwards.

Next day at 7:00 a.m. they all were blood tested by the UCI. Started the TTT first, and without any reference were able to place 8Th in the stage.

Ah, that "2:30 max. loss" is not true. The last team in the TTT was "awarded" 3:00 minutes (not 2:30) more than USPS. Mayo saved 1:10 from the rule change, but the team fought and earned each of those gained seconds by beating other teams.

 

[gntlmn]

Originally posted by kalen
And there again, the "weak" Euskaltel team.

The fact is that 4 euskaltel were involved in that crash. They were a much greater distance away than Liberty seguros when they started the chase, they catched Hushvods group (Credit Agricole) and fought almost on his own (until IBB helped) against USPS, PHONAK and TMobile firts and the sprinters teams afterwards.

Next day at 7:00 a.m. they all were blood tested by the UCI. Started the TTT first, and without any reference were able to place 8Th in the stage.

Ah, that "2:30 max. loss" is not true. The last team in the TTT was "awarded" 3:00 minutes (not 2:30) more than USPS. Mayo saved 1:10 from the rule change, but the team fought and earned each of those gained seconds by beating other teams.

That 2:30 rule is a bit confusing at best. As for earning gained seconds by beating other teams, it seems rather illogical in a certain sense because a TTT is against the clock, not someone right there next to you. But I'm going to stick with my earlier assessment, that the TTT limitation this year helps team leaders whose teams are weaker. And the fact that the team was farther away, as you say, means they were weaker. Otherwise they wouldn't have ridden in the danger zone.

Sure, every team leader wants his team to place him in the front of the peloton to avoid crashes like the one on the cobblestone stage. It's just that only 2 or 3 of the strongest teams will get the honors.

Banesto was a strong team in it's day, placing Indurain comfortably near the front of the peloton day after day. People used to complain that that's boring, but you didn't see Big Mig getting in many crashes. I don't recall a crash from him offhand. Lance has a strong team too, and he's usually riding right around the area that Big Mig used to. The players are different, the game the same.

 

[kalen]

Originally posted by gntlmn
And the fact that the team was farther away, as you say, means they were weaker. Otherwise they wouldn't have ridden in the danger zone.

Don´t get me wrong. I said they were farther away after the crash. That´s because the crash happened just in their side of the peloton when they were in the front. Not leading the group, but certainly in the front.

I have seen the images several times, The crash happens on the left side of the peloton and there is plenty of room in the other side so other teams that were in the back can pass.

I´m not saying they are as strong as USPS or Phonak in the flat, but, hey, they aren´t certainly as weak as people seem to think. If you see the coverage of the first flat stages, you´ll see several orange jerseys near the front.

BTW. Today EE was again 1 of the 3 bloodtested teams.

 

[gntlmn]

Originally posted by kalen
Don´t get me wrong. I said they were farther away after the crash. That´s because the crash happened just in their side of the peloton when they were in the front. Not leading the group, but certainly in the front.

I have seen the images several times, The crash happens on the left side of the peloton and there is plenty of room in the other side so other teams that were in the back can pass.

I´m not saying they are as strong as USPS or Phonak in the flat, but, hey, they aren´t certainly as weak as people seem to think. If you see the coverage of the first flat stages, you´ll see several orange jerseys near the front.

BTW. Today EE was again 1 of the 3 bloodtested teams.

Interesting about the blood testing. The media didn't say that this would be selective. They seemed to imply that all riders would be blood tested.

Is there some reason you keep saying Euskadl is being blood tested? It's not like they did anything sensational so far that would raise eyebrows and get people crying, "Dopers." I realize they already lost one rider and only now ride with 8 because of drugs, but this means all of the others tested clean before the Tour. I would be very surprised if they blew one of these tests, especially since eyes are on them now.

As for positioning, come to think of it, I think Mayo was riding on the side of the road too much trying to avoid the rougher pavement, and this put him at greater risk for puncture. There's too much debris where he chose to ride. Eventually this tactic caught up with him, and he paid a big price not having the horsepower to get back into the peloton. So I think that this was a major factor for him, having nothing to do with where his team placed him within the peloton before it happened, which was quite a ways before the cobblestones.

 

[kalen]

Originally posted by gntlmn

Is there some reason you keep saying Euskadl is being blood tested? It's not like they did anything sensational so far that would raise eyebrows and get people crying, "Dopers."

Well, they have done nothing sensational yet, but people (Bernadeu, media...) has put suspect on them. and i keep saying it because it´s the second conscutive day they are awaken and bloodtested at 6:30-7:00 a.m. nothing more, nothing less

I realize they already lost one rider and only now ride with 8 because of drugs, but this means all of the others tested clean before the Tour.

Wrong, it is not because of drugs. His blood levels were higher than acceptable according to the new australian test that is being used this year in the tour, that has been a great mistake by EE, because they would have tested all their riders prior to the race, even though Gonzalez wasn´t supposed to ride, but this doesn´t prove he used drugs, that remains to be seen with further testing.

And...

As for positioning

We won´t agree no mather how much we discuss so i´m going back to work. Have fun with todays stage..

 

[gntlmn]

Originally posted by kalen

Wrong, it is not because of drugs. His blood levels were higher than acceptable according to the new australian test that is being used this year in the tour, that has been a great mistake by EE, because they would have tested all their riders prior to the race, even though Gonzalez wasn´t supposed to ride, but this doesn´t prove he used drugs, that remains to be seen with further testing.

..

You got me there. It's kind of like if you are found with a smoking gun looking down on a corpse, this doesn't prove you killed anybody. It kind of makes you wonder though, doesn't it?

 

[kalen]

Originally posted by gntlmn
You got me there. It's kind of like if you are found with a smoking gun looking down on a corpse, this doesn't prove you killed anybody. It kind of makes you wonder though, doesn't it?

The thread has gone fully off-topic, but can´t leave that without response. Even UCI says that training in altitude 6-7 days before the test can make the levels higher than usual, and thats EE´s esplanation. Gorka Gonzalez was selected at the last moment instead of crashed Mikel Artetxe, and he rode Clasica quebrantahuesos to get ready....

Is that explanation posible? or is it doping? I don´t know yet, so to say that Gonzalez was found with a smoking gun but they didn´t find the corpse yet would be more correct.