The next president of the United States is a...cyclist



Fri, 20 Feb 2004 12:26:06 -0500,
<[email protected]>,
"David L. Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 23:20:57 -0800, Zoot Katz wrote:
>
>> whatcha gonna do?
>
>Vote for somebody else

ohhh yaaah. That'll do it.

> --- and hope, for a change, that I don't have to hold my nose while doing it.

The electorate shall not be permitted to wear clothes pegs, gas masks or rubber gloves within
polling stations or their immediate environs.

The latest election in France there was a law made against it when voters had to choose between
conservatives to keep out the nazi.

bon chance!
--
zk
 
On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 12:57:24 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email protected]> from
Habanero Cycles wrote:

>There was virtually nothing of substance done to influence Saddam to cave in to UN pressure.

Well, then where's the goods?

Looks like what was done worked pretty well.

--
[email protected]
Be dirty.
9
 
>Binny be soon dead. @;-{)>

We want him alive, you nut.

So we can interrogate him.

--

_______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________ ------------------"Buddy Holly,
the Texas Elvis"------------------
__________306.350.357.38>>[email protected]__________
 
Mark Hickey wrote:

> Terry Morse wrote:
> >Bush tried to tell us he was selling us all Colnagos, when in reality all he had were Huffys with
> >a fancy paint job.
>
> Heh... I'm usually pretty good at analogies, but try as I might can't figure out how that
> one fits.

Colnago = smoking gun evidence of WMD Fancy painted Huffy = crummy intelligence gussied up to look
like smoking gun

David Kay said "we were all wrong" about WMD. Well, not everybody got it all wrong. Hans Blix and
Mohamed ElBaradei were essentially dead on, but nobody in the Bush govt. was interested in what they
had to say.
--
terry
 
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> That is great John Kerry cycles, and I am personally aware of that

Yeah, he cycles back and forth from one side of the issues to the other <GGG>.

> because of my geological location. Although, that alone, like his military service, should not be
> a rubber stamp to the Presidency. Once all the ecstasy of the primaries is over, then John Kerry's
> record will be challenged, and that in conjunction with his ideology should be the determining
> factor of whom you should vote for - not the fact that he cycles.
>
> Lets keep this forum about cycling and leave the politics out.

I would like that too, but I doubt it will happen.

--
Dave Kerber Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.
 
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 12:57:24 -0700, Mark Hickey wrote:
>
> > There was virtually nothing of substance done to influence Saddam to cave in to UN pressure.
>
> Although I don't often agree with Mark politically, he is right about this.
>
> On the other hand, neither the UN nor Bush are consistent on the issue. There are lots of brutal
> dictators left in the world, most of them drooling over the possibility of getting their hands on
> weapons of any sort, the nastier the better. North Korea comes to mind. But no one is suggesting a
> pre-emptive war on North Korea. The cynic in me suggests that the real difference is that Korea is
> not sitting on top of a sea of oil.

That's part of it, but only a small part. The real reason for attacking Iraq and not even discussing
attacking NK is two-fold:

1) Iraq has let it be known that they want to have more influence in the middle east (witness their
invasion of Kuwait); there is concern that with WMD's, they could coerce their other oil-rich
neighbors into doing Iraq's will, giving Iraq control of something like 50% of the worlds oil.
So it's not Iraq's own oil which is the reason, but rather the rest of the area's oil, which the
rest of the world needs. NK is not in that kind of situation to have a direct effect on our
national interest. If they tried to attack Japan, we would offer to help defend Japan, but the
Japanese can do a pretty good job of that themselves. If they decided to attach China, we'd just
sit back and watch while China turned NK into a Chinese province.

2) Iraq's military was *much* weaker than NK's. Iraq has a small, Korean War era military. NK has a
modern army larger than that of the US. An invasion of Iraq cost a few hundred of the invader's
lives. An invasion of NK would easily cost thousands, and maybe tens of thousands of lives
unless the attackers decided to just bomb them back to the stone age, in which case it would
only cost probably a few hundred planes shot down. The difference in cost to effect regime
change changes the political calculus to the point where we would never seriously invading NK.

> If you paid attention to the build-up to this war, the reason for war kept shifting. First it was
> a link to Bin Laden and his merry band, then when

I never heard that as a reason from the administration, as far as I can recall. Links to terrorism
in general, yes (which have found some supporting evidence, IIRC), but not to Al Qaeda.

....

--
Dave Kerber Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.
 
"David L. Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> This war never was about weapons, since there weren't any and he wasn't exporting what he did not
> have. It wasn't about "terrism", since he had no ties to terrorists. If it was about regime
> change, there are lots of countries in need of that -- but that is not viewed as an acceptable
> cause for an invasion. It's all about that sea of oil.

Different solutions for different situations. Taking the same actions against North Korea might well
result in a big smoking hole where Seoul or Tokyo is. Kim Jong Il IS possibly nutty enough to do it,
and he DOES have the means to do it. And with China within spitting distance...

Libya and Iran don't require the same actions, because they have (supposedly) seen the light, and
are fessing up voluntarily.

If all we wanted was the oil, it would have been MUCH cheaper and easier to lead an effort to dispel
the sanctions, and simply buy the oil.

The question about the weapons is not that 'there weren't any', but rather what did he do with the
stuff he had. It appears that, in one form or another, they are no longer in the country. Destroyed,
moved, buried...we don't know. And that was what he had 12 years to show to the world, and never
satisfactorily did.

Iraq, unfortunately, became a certainty, because we gave him a hard deadline. "Cooperate, or we're
coming in". IMHO, I think Bush and Co thought Saddam would actually fess up. He didn't. Well...he
did a little, but according to Hanx Blix, "No new information".

Pete
 
>>Binny be soon dead. @;-{)>
>
>We want him alive, you nut.
>
>So we can interrogate him.

Too bad, Binny be so sad. @;-{)>
--
zk
 
On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 02:10:36 GMT, "Pete" <[email protected]> from Road Runner High
Speed Online http://www.rr.com wrote:

>If all we wanted was the oil, it would have been MUCH cheaper and easier to lead an effort to
>dispel the sanctions, and simply buy the oil.

Sure, that's to obtain the oil. Which is different entirely from controlling it at the source.

--
[email protected]
Honor thy error as a hidden intention.
29
 
On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 02:10:36 GMT, "Pete" <[email protected]> wrote:

>The question about the weapons is not that 'there weren't any', but rather what did he do with the
>stuff he had. It appears that, in one form or another, they are no longer in the country.
>Destroyed, moved, buried...we don't know. And that was what he had 12 years to show to the world,
>and never satisfactorily did.

While his useful idiots on the left fought a brilliant delaying action in the UN and in the court of
public opinion, the stuff was moved. Syria? Who the hell knows?
 
On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 00:00:54 -0600, Zippy the Pinhead
<[email protected]> from Xavier Onassis Associates wrote:

>While his useful idiots on the left fought a brilliant delaying action in the UN and in the court
>of public opinion, the stuff was moved. Syria? Who the hell knows?

Sorry. There's no evidence of that, either. Not a trace.

--
[email protected]
Be dirty.
9
 
In article <[email protected]>, Kevan@mouse- potato.com says...
> On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 00:00:54 -0600, Zippy the Pinhead <[email protected]> from Xavier
> Onassis Associates wrote:
>
> >While his useful idiots on the left fought a brilliant delaying action in the UN and in the court
> >of public opinion, the stuff was moved. Syria? Who the hell knows?
>
> Sorry. There's no evidence of that, either. Not a trace.

True, but the question still stands: what happened to all those weapons he had? Nobody believes he
used them *all* on the Kurds and Iranians, so where are the rest? If he simply destroyed them as the
UN resolutions required, why did he work so hard to interfere with the inspectors who where trying
to document that?

--
Dave Kerber Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.
 
Kevan Smith <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 09:45:20 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email protected]> from Habanero Cycles wrote:
>
>>"We want to seriously dimnish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program." -
>>Bill Clinton Feb 17, 1998
>
>Looks like he did just that.

I heard a radio report where a diplomat who had recently been visited by Clinton said that Bill told
him that he believed that Saddam probably still had WMD stockpiles right up until the invasion.

That would be a consistent and logical opinion given the facts. Some day we'll find out what really
happened to the WMD stores.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
 
Terry Morse <[email protected]> wrote:

>Mark Hickey wrote:
>
>> Terry Morse wrote:
>> >Bush tried to tell us he was selling us all Colnagos, when in reality all he had were Huffys
>> >with a fancy paint job.
>>
>> Heh... I'm usually pretty good at analogies, but try as I might can't figure out how that
>> one fits.
>
>Colnago = smoking gun evidence of WMD Fancy painted Huffy = crummy intelligence gussied up to look
>like smoking gun
>
>David Kay said "we were all wrong" about WMD. Well, not everybody got it all wrong. Hans Blix and
>Mohamed ElBaradei were essentially dead on, but nobody in the Bush govt. was interested in what
>they had to say.

Though it wasn't well reported in the US media, both Hans Blix and Jacques Chirac admitted that
there was no reason to believe Saddam did NOT have WMD. That's really the only credible position
that COULD be taken until the Baath party was run out of town and "real inspections" could be made.
Why would Saddam refuse to provide any evidence that he had indeed disposed of the stockpiles of WMD
he admits having? Who knows?

The good news is that a brutal dictator and his regime are toast, 25 million Iraqis have a chance to
build a democratic society, and those countries who were developing WMD realize that they have to
worry about more than just sternly worded memos.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
 
On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 10:19:21 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email protected]>
wrote:

>The good news is that a brutal dictator and his regime are toast, 25 million Iraqis have a chance
>to build a democratic society, and those countries who were developing WMD realize that they have
>to worry about more than just sternly worded memos.

Bear in mind that that is "good news" to you, and to me, but that an alarming percentage of our
fellow "citizens" view this as bad news indeed.
 
"Kevan Smith" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 00:00:54 -0600, Zippy the Pinhead <[email protected]> from Xavier
> Onassis Associates wrote:
>
> >While his useful idiots on the left fought a brilliant delaying action in the UN and in the court
> >of public opinion, the stuff was moved. Syria? Who the hell knows?
>
> Sorry. There's no evidence of that, either. Not a trace.

David Kay: http://www.chronwatch.com/content/contentDisplay.asp?aid=5725

ex-Syrian journalist http://www.2la.org/syria/iraq-wmd.php

Israeli intel officer http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Iraq/0,,2-10-1460_1340941,00.html

Reform Party of Syria http://cshink.com/Syria_hiding_Iraqi_WMD.htm

Believable reports? Dunno. Verified? No. Not yet, anyway. Worth looking into? Definitely. If for
nothing else, to be able to cross 'moved to Syria' off the list.

Pete
 
Zippy the Pinhead <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 10:19:21 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>The good news is that a brutal dictator and his regime are toast, 25 million Iraqis have a chance
>>to build a democratic society, and those countries who were developing WMD realize that they have
>>to worry about more than just sternly worded memos.
>
>Bear in mind that that is "good news" to you, and to me, but that an alarming percentage of our
>fellow "citizens" view this as bad news indeed.

True enough. No one wants any war any time, but on balance this war may be viewed historically as
the "most worthwhile war" in history if only a few of the long-term objectives are reached
(additional stability in the region, a democracy in the heart of the ME, a terrorist-supporting
regime gone, a known producer of WMD removed).

I know that a lot of Americans don't really care about any of the above, and consider ANY cost in US
dollars and lives a bad investment. That's very short-sighted IMHO, particularly when you consider
the cost to the world economy had Sadaam done any one of a number of things he was likely to do
given his history (most of which would severely disrupt the world supply of oil).

Only time will tell. Lots of folks complained about the US military buildup under Reagan at the
time, but from our perspective now it's clear that it was a brilliant strategic move that bankrupted
the Soviet Union and actually decreased military spending long-term. I predict that the Iraq war
will be viewed in the same way in 10 years (perhaps sooner).

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
 

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