The one thing that couldn't go wrong, did go wrong.

[Blair P. Houghton]

<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Blair P. Houghton wrote:
>>
>>
>> I've got plenty of experience with mechanicals. Enough to
>> know these two significant things: when you stress old
>> metal, it doesn't behave the way new metal does;
>
>Sorry, I disagree, unless there's something special going on, like
>severe corrosion.

20 years of stress and release will change a crystalline
matrix (and yes, all solids are crystals, just some
aren't pure and regular). Welds and brazings weaken.

And applying any new, untested stress invokes the concept
of infant mortality.

You don't put a safety system into use in a situation in
which it hasn't been certified. Unless you don't care
about safety any more.

>> you can't
>> bend two pieces of metal exactly the same, and the two sides
>> of the rear triangle are two pieces of metal that need to
>> be bent exactly the same.
>
>Here's how I did it last time (just a couple months ago): The bike was
>a beautiful old Trek touring bike, Reynolds 531, in perfect condition.
>I was doing some work on it for a friend, and found the bike shop
>hadn't respaced the frame to fit the new hub.
>
>I phoned the owner, explained the problem and said "Do you want me to
>fix it?" She said yes. I left the bike in the workstand, got two
>blocks of wood and one longer two-by-four, used the two-by-four to pry
>the dropouts further apart by putting pressure on the wood blocks. I
>used trial and error to get the exact 130mm spacing.
>
>The force was applied evenly and simultaneously to the inside of both
>dropouts. The frame passed a quick string alignment check, and the
>frame rode perfectly straight when it was all done. It all took 15
>minutes or less.

Nice job.

Anecdotal, though.

If you used the one side as the spring to deflect the
other side then no actual attempt was made to ensure even
deflection, so you got lucky.

To do it for certain you'd need to do each side separately.

How far did you have to push the dropouts past 130mm to get
them to spring back to 130mm?

(BTW, not to be a snob, but, no Trek is a Holdsworth.
I'd sooner bend a Serotta than my frame. I could replace
a custom Serotta. I could replace a stock Holdsworth -
I know of a source of NOS - but it'd have to be modded...)

>> There's also the fact that we're talking about one kind of
>> metal encased in another (the Campy lugs ...
>
>Was that supposed to be dropouts?

I'm not confusing frame lugs with dropout lugs, if that's
what you mean.

The dropouts themselves are Campagnolo-made hardened lugs
that Holdsworth welded to the Reynolds tubing. Standard
equipment, AFAIK. But then, so was a full Campy groupo
I wish I had back. I saved the seat-post nut, though.

>> ... are hardened and
>> the surrounding material is not) and once the stays are
>> widened the lug area has to be realigned, which threatens
>> to split the join between these dissimilar metals.
>
>I don't know about any differences between Campy dropouts and Trek
>dropouts, but there was absolutely no problem realigning the Trek
>dropoouts, or the ones on my old Raleigh when I did this, or any other
>bike I know of. Besides, I doubt the brazed area of a dropout would be
>hardened after brazing. You're probably getting it thoroughly annealed
>as you're brazing it.
>
>Really. Seriously. You're making a mountain out of a molehill.

Nope. No more than you'd do dental surgery on your
own daughter just to make her teeth look like Jessica
Simpson's.

>But if you really like your mountain, you're free to keep it. Nobody's
>forcing you to perform an easy fix for an irritating problem.

That's an attitude I wish more people would get.

--Blair
"It's easy in theory."

 

[Blair P. Houghton]

41 <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Blair P. Houghton wrote:
>> my Holdsworth.
>
>I see the following relevant points:
>
>1. A large body of practical experience says you should be able to
>spread the frame no problem, if you do it carefully as described.

I'd agree if I agreed with the "no" part of that. Problems
can occur. I don't want to go near them.

>2. It's your Holdsworth and your hub, for you to do as you determine
>and to take responsibility for. I object to anyone ordering you around
>and telling you what to do, instead of merely explaining or even
>insisting what you can do without problem.

Thank you.

>3. Isn't replacing an axle less strenuous than spreading a frame?
>Assuming everything else fits.

Not really. Spreading a frame could be as simple as laying
the frame on its side, standing on one lug, and tugging
the other one up. Replacing an axle needs wrench, or three.

>4. What's wrong with an original five, or was it six or seven, speed
>freewheel with no change? You have a classic Holdsworth, why not leave
>it with the original configuration on classic wheels and sell the new
>ones on eBay? I don't see any advantage to a modern wheel with its
>extreme dish. Who needs so many gears? Who needs so much aero, unless
>you are racing? The weight need not be any better..

I'm considering the smaller rear cog setup, but I do need
a new wheel no matter what. My Mavics are starting to
spring parts.

"Aero" wasn't so important, but it was only a few bucks
more than the standard Neuvations, which are inexpensive
to start.

And the new cassette wasn't that expensive. I was thinking
of selling the wheel with the tire, tube, and cassette
already installed, since, well, I already installed them.
I couldn't test the rear wheel, but I've ridden the
front one (700C front and 27" rear...a little squirrelly,
noticeably different handling after so long riding the same
setup, but not too bad). The rear is pressure tested (one
tube blew out before reaching full pressure; I blame the
tube because I double-checked the seating before I pumped
it up; the second came up fine). Specialized brand race
tubes, Hutchison Long-Distance slick tires.

The front was nice and true with that rubber on it.
I'd like to keep them, so changing out an axle, if it's
doable, is the preferred course.

--Blair
"I'm in no hurry. The sprint
doesn't happen 'til the end."

 

[Blair P. Houghton]

<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>[email protected] wrote:
>> Blair P. Houghton wrote:
>> > Changing axles requires repacking bearings. Unless you
>> > have magic axles without bearings.
>>
>> May I suggest a look at the Neuvation hub technical sheet? Your hubs
>> have sealed bearings; no need to repack them when you change the axle.
>> http://www.neuvationcycling.com/pdf/Hubtechnicalsheets.pdf
>>
>> Of course, I'd just re-space the frame and there'd be no need to change
>> the axle.
>
>Just found Sheldon's excellent instructions for frame spacing,
>including photos:
>http://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html

About halfway down, highlighted in bright red, it says:

"Note, if you're not careful, you can do serious damage
to your frame this way!"

Oh. Now I feel better. Thanks, Shel.

>It's not that risky, even for a vintage Holdworth (my first real road
>bike was a Holdsworth. Great bike, but it shimmied no-hands at 17 and
>35 mph.)

Mine shimmies at every speed no-hands. But I blame my
old Mavics and the cheap tires I've been putting on them
while I was waiting for them to die; i.e., a lot of the
shimmy could just be wobbly contact patches.

Holdsworths are somewhat flexy, which is the thing I liked
about them. And all bikes will have a speed at which they
shimmy; it's just a matter of where the poles are in the
Laplace transform of the springs and masses and dampings
that represent the entire system (including rider).

Usually it becomes a problem in descents, but either
standing or sitting down will change the system enough to
make it stop at that speed. I think letting go of the
bars would do that, too, but you'd have to be wearing a
polka-dot jersey to want to do it in a descent.

--Blair
"Practice makes madness."

 

[Blair P. Houghton]

<[email protected]> wrote:
>Blair P. Houghton writes:
>
>>>> I'd rather find the right axle or find out it's not possible to find
>>>> one, first.
>
>>> It's not the axle but the width of hub and freewheel that defines
>>> frame spacing.
>
>> Define "axle".
>
>The shaft on which the hub turns. It's jam nut-to-jam nut width can
>be arbitrarily long but the hub and specifically the FW width
>prescribe what that dimension must be.

What it must be [at a minimum].

The LBS's first suggestion was to check for spacer washers
between the locknuts and the hub.

Even so, the threaded part of the axle might stick out too
far for the skewers to engage the lugs, even if I can take
out spacers and narrow the locknut-locknut distance.

Which I can't, because there aren't any.

>I have axles of various
>lengths for wider dropout spacing from 120 to 135mm because that is
>what bicycle shops stock but my dropouts are 120 because I use an old
>ultra-6 SunTour new winner pro freewheel.
>
>> I'm defining it as the parts of the wheel that don't rotate; they
>> include the part that mates with the inner surface of the lug.
>
>> That is the part that defines the spacing.
>
>So what?

So you sounded like you thought it was something different
when you said that the hub and not the axle determined
dropout spacing. But now you seem to understand that the
axle determines the dropout spacing and the hub is only a
minimum.

>> If it's a two-piece affair, one on either side of the hub, then yes,
>> the hub would have to be replaced entirely. But the wrench at my
>> LBS implied it would be an axle change, not a hub change.
>
>Why do would you want to change the axle if it fits in the hub and
>freewheel?

It's too long for the dropout spacing. Or hadn't you read
before responding?

>> Changing the hub would not be a simple thing, if the aero spokes
>> Neuvation used are not compatible with someone else's hubs, because
>> they don't appear to make anything other than 130mm.
>
>Just re-space the rear dropouts the way everybody else did as hub
>spacings grew with increasing number of gears.

Asked and answered.

>>>> In this case, repacking the bearings is much the less-stressful
>>>> solution.
>
>>> Or, rearrange the deck chairs as the ship sinks. What does this
>>> have to do with the OP's frame width adjustment?
>
>> I'm the OP.
>
>Yes?

You seemed not to have noticed.

>> Changing axles requires repacking bearings. Unless you have magic
>> axles without bearings.
>
>I think you speak a different mechanical component language than I. I
>don't understand what you mean by that. Are we talking about dropout
>width or bearing maintenance. I missed the connection.

I said, just a few lines up:

"...repacking the bearings [after inserting a new axle]
is much the less-stressful solution [than spreading the
dropouts]..."

I.e., the whole point of the thread tells you the "connection".

--Blair
"How many spokes am I holding up?"

 

[Blair P. Houghton]

John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 22:19:01 GMT, Blair P. Houghton <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>How do I guarantee that the lugs won't separate from the
>>frame at the welds under this non-designed stress; how do I
>>ensure that the two stays move outward the same distance;
>>and how do I know the bar on which the brake is mounted
>>won't break from one stay or the other?
>
>How can you guarantee you don't cut yourself, or get hit by lightning
>or whatever. Lighten up. It's not that big a deal. Just stick the
>wheel in and ride it.

I tried that. It won't go unless I get a narrower axle
or make enough of a permanent bend in the stays that I
can get this axle in. But I won't do the latter.

--Blair
"I might not do the former."

 

[41]

Blair P. Houghton wrote:
> 41 <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >Blair P. Houghton wrote:
> >> my Holdsworth.
> >
> >I see the following relevant points:
> >
> >1. A large body of practical experience says you should be able to
> >spread the frame no problem, if you do it carefully as described.
>
> I'd agree if I agreed with the "no" part of that. Problems
> can occur.

That's covered in the "should". Otherwise would be shall or will!
However, I know of no one who has ever recounted a failure.


> >3. Isn't replacing an axle less strenuous than spreading a frame?
> > Assuming everything else fits.
>
> Not really. Spreading a frame could be as simple as laying
> the frame on its side, standing on one lug, and tugging
> the other one up. Replacing an axle needs wrench, or three.

I agree the frame bending is simpler but my point is that it is more
strenuous. For the axle, I count only two cone wrenches, unless this
hub is somehow unusual.

It's exasperating or amusing to watch you and JB talk past each other
over the axle length. All he is saying is that the required frame
spacing is determined by the hub and cogset width, because that is the
unalterable part of the equaiton. From that, you determine the correct
overlocknut distance. If the axle is too long, hacksaw off the excess
or even use nutted fittings instead of a QR. If it's two mm on each
side you may not even have to make any correction. Thus the axle length
is not the determining factor, although in practice most people just
change the axle instead of hacksawing it.

> >4. What's wrong with an original five, or was it six or seven, speed
> >freewheel with no change? You have a classic Holdsworth, why not leave
> >it with the original configuration on classic wheels and sell the new
> >ones on eBay? I don't see any advantage to a modern wheel with its
> >extreme dish. Who needs so many gears? Who needs so much aero, unless
> >you are racing? The weight need not be any better..
>
> I'm considering the smaller rear cog setup, but I do need
> a new wheel no matter what. My Mavics are starting to
> sprin g parts.

Well, my way of thinking is, classic bike, plenty of 13-2x freewheels
available NOS on eBay, less than 13 teeth no great use, you should be
able to use a classic setup with no problem and no practical
disadvantages. Your old hub is probably just fine, all you need is a
new rim and to lace it to the old hub. If you can get a rim with the
same ERD you can even reuse the spokes.

Good luck with whatever you end up doing.o

 

[Neal]

"Blair P. Houghton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>Blair P. Houghton wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I've got plenty of experience with mechanicals. Enough to
>>> know these two significant things: when you stress old
>>> metal, it doesn't behave the way new metal does;
>>
>>Sorry, I disagree, unless there's something special going on, like
>>severe corrosion.
>
> 20 years of stress and release will change a crystalline
> matrix (and yes, all solids are crystals, just some
> aren't pure and regular). Welds and brazings weaken.
>
> And applying any new, untested stress invokes the concept
> of infant mortality.
>
> You don't put a safety system into use in a situation in
> which it hasn't been certified. Unless you don't care
> about safety any more.
>
>>> you can't
>>> bend two pieces of metal exactly the same, and the two sides
>>> of the rear triangle are two pieces of metal that need to
>>> be bent exactly the same.
>>
>>Here's how I did it last time (just a couple months ago): The bike was
>>a beautiful old Trek touring bike, Reynolds 531, in perfect condition.
>>I was doing some work on it for a friend, and found the bike shop
>>hadn't respaced the frame to fit the new hub.
>>
>>I phoned the owner, explained the problem and said "Do you want me to
>>fix it?" She said yes. I left the bike in the workstand, got two
>>blocks of wood and one longer two-by-four, used the two-by-four to pry
>>the dropouts further apart by putting pressure on the wood blocks. I
>>used trial and error to get the exact 130mm spacing.
>>
>>The force was applied evenly and simultaneously to the inside of both
>>dropouts. The frame passed a quick string alignment check, and the
>>frame rode perfectly straight when it was all done. It all took 15
>>minutes or less.
>
> Nice job.
>
> Anecdotal, though.
>
> If you used the one side as the spring to deflect the
> other side then no actual attempt was made to ensure even
> deflection, so you got lucky.
>
> To do it for certain you'd need to do each side separately.
>
> How far did you have to push the dropouts past 130mm to get
> them to spring back to 130mm?
>
> (BTW, not to be a snob, but, no Trek is a Holdsworth.
> I'd sooner bend a Serotta than my frame. I could replace
> a custom Serotta. I could replace a stock Holdsworth -
> I know of a source of NOS - but it'd have to be modded...)
>
>>> There's also the fact that we're talking about one kind of
>>> metal encased in another (the Campy lugs ...
>>
>>Was that supposed to be dropouts?
>
> I'm not confusing frame lugs with dropout lugs, if that's
> what you mean.
>
> The dropouts themselves are Campagnolo-made hardened lugs
> that Holdsworth welded to the Reynolds tubing. Standard
> equipment, AFAIK. But then, so was a full Campy groupo
> I wish I had back. I saved the seat-post nut, though.
>
>>> ... are hardened and
>>> the surrounding material is not) and once the stays are
>>> widened the lug area has to be realigned, which threatens
>>> to split the join between these dissimilar metals.
>>
>>I don't know about any differences between Campy dropouts and Trek
>>dropouts, but there was absolutely no problem realigning the Trek
>>dropoouts, or the ones on my old Raleigh when I did this, or any other
>>bike I know of. Besides, I doubt the brazed area of a dropout would be
>>hardened after brazing. You're probably getting it thoroughly annealed
>>as you're brazing it.
>>
>>Really. Seriously. You're making a mountain out of a molehill.
>
> Nope. No more than you'd do dental surgery on your
> own daughter just to make her teeth look like Jessica
> Simpson's.
>
>>But if you really like your mountain, you're free to keep it. Nobody's
>>forcing you to perform an easy fix for an irritating problem.
>
> That's an attitude I wish more people would get.
>
> --Blair
> "It's easy in theory."



I can understand your reluctance to bend the frame. Those of us that ride older
bikes have a special relationship with those bikes that may not be understood by
some. I ride a 1978 Gios torino Super Record that I have many miles on and I
had to make the same decision if I was to move on to modern 10 speed gearing. It
took me several months before I finally went ahead and respaced the frame. What
I found was that it was far easier than I thought it would be and the result was
a substanial improvement over the 6 speed freewheel. You would be surprised at
little you have to bend the frame to increase the spacing. I feel it was worth
the risk because I am riding more now with the improved range of gears and the
incredible ease of shifting. Good luck


Neal

 

[Jeff Starr]

On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 06:57:30 GMT, Blair P. Houghton <[email protected]> wrote:


>I tried that. It won't go unless I get a narrower axle
>or make enough of a permanent bend in the stays that I
>can get this axle in. But I won't do the latter.
>
> --Blair
> "I might not do the former."

Here's an idea. Why not take it to a frame builder and have them do
the respacing. They have the jigs and the knowledge.
In fact, they could tell you if it isn't a good idea. Or if it is no
big deal.

I might be reluctant to do it myself, but I would have no fear of
having a pro do it. If you post a location, I'm sure someone will know
of a builder, within a reasonable distance. Just make arrangements to
have it done while you wait.


Life is Good!
Jeff

 

[Alex Rodriguez]

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...

>I tried that. It won't go unless I get a narrower axle
>or make enough of a permanent bend in the stays that I
>can get this axle in. But I won't do the latter.

I put about 10k miles on a Specialized Epic carbon fiber frame after I just
jammed in the wider wheel. It was originally spaced for a 126mm wheel and I
just spread the stays and put in a 130mm wheel. No problems at all. It just
meant I had spread the stays every time I put the wheel back on. Not a big
deal. I'm sure someone is still riding that frame.
-------------
Alex

 

[[email protected]]

Blair P. Houghton wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >Blair P. Houghton wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> I've got plenty of experience with mechanicals. Enough to
> >> know these two significant things: when you stress old
> >> metal, it doesn't behave the way new metal does;
> >
> >Sorry, I disagree, unless there's something special going on, like
> >severe corrosion.
>
> 20 years of stress and release will change a crystalline
> matrix (and yes, all solids are crystals, just some
> aren't pure and regular). Welds and brazings weaken.

Um... sorry, no. Not in any practical way, in this practical
situation. You're worrying about things you don't have to worry about.


> >I left the bike in the workstand, got two
> >blocks of wood and one longer two-by-four, used the two-by-four to pry
> >the dropouts further apart by putting pressure on the wood blocks. I
> >used trial and error to get the exact 130mm spacing.
> >
> >The force was applied evenly and simultaneously to the inside of both
> >dropouts. The frame passed a quick string alignment check, and the
> >frame rode perfectly straight when it was all done. It all took 15
> >minutes or less.
>
> Nice job.
>
> Anecdotal, though.
>
> If you used the one side as the spring to deflect the
> other side then no actual attempt was made to ensure even
> deflection, so you got lucky.

I was thinking about this a bit more, recalling exactly how I did it.
It was actually two two-by-fours, and two other blocks of wood to fill
up the space between the dropouts, arranged this way: Block, 2x4, 2x4,
block. The 2x4s extended about 8" (as a guess) forward of the axle
line, and perhaps 2.5 feet behind, and were parallel to each other.

I spread the back end of the 2x4s, so they pivoted on their front ends,
spreading the dropouts. They acted as second class levers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lever

The forces on each dropout were exactly the same. I figured the
deflection would be the same. And it was.


> How far did you have to push the dropouts past 130mm to get
> them to spring back to 130mm?

I didn't measure. It took about three or four tries to get it right.
I've got a fair amount of experience bending metal. ;-) I just felt
for the yielding.



> >> There's also the fact that we're talking about one kind of
> >> metal encased in another (the Campy lugs ...
> >
> >Was that supposed to be dropouts?
>
> I'm not confusing frame lugs with dropout lugs, if that's
> what you mean.
>
> The dropouts themselves are Campagnolo-made hardened lugs
> that Holdsworth welded to the Reynolds tubing.

?? That's not making sense to me. For one thing, isn't it brazed
construction instead of welded? And regarding the lugs - do you have a
picture?


> "It's easy in theory."

It's easy in practice, too. Some things are that way! But it's
all up to you.

- Frank Krygowski

 

[[email protected]]

Blair P. Houghton wrote:

> If it was a beater or a new bike, I'd consider it good exercise.
>
> But this is my Holdsworth.
>
> One slip, and 22 years of history, maybe 40k miles, dumped
> on the junk-heap.

I have a Holdsworth Super Mistral (Black/red panels), first "nice"
frame I ever bought new, 1980. I toured on it, and then used it for a
fixed gear bike and single-speed commuter. Probably not 40k miles, but
at least a lot of the paint is missing...

Yeah, "dogpiling". But maybe sharpening a point or two: My
understanding is that "coldsetting" stays for alignment is routinely
done after brazing, when new. I've been told and have read that some
mass-produced (in bike terms) frames were commonly cold-set by greater
amounts than what's being discussed here.

Sheldon Brown on Holdsworth:

<Holdsworth
The Holdsworthy company was a huge retail and mail order concern going
back at least to the 30's. Eventually Holdsworthy bought out many other
framebuilders such as Claud Butler and Freddie Grubb. Holdsworth frames
until the 50's were really extraordinary, and from then until the mid
70's were simply quite nice. The orange and blue professionals were
great riders, and their touring counterparts with the same interesting
wrap-around seat cluster were very cool indeed.
By the late 70's or early 80's, things started getting very mass
produced. Holdsworth frames became the lowest priced frame going, rally
just a step above many nice production bikes. Reality, though, is that
even the later more mediocre examples really ride wonderfully. They are
cheap thrills in the vintage lightweight world. For early 70's models
in guideline condition (especially the orange ones) a price around $850
seems reasonable. Because Holdsworth frames were usually ridden hard,
it may be very hard to find truly great examples. I know that I'm still
looking! For later models with N.R. parts, a value around $550 seems
reasonable.>

Open to correction: I understand the later Holdsworths were furnace
brazed, which I guess would mean a minimum amount of constraint (no
jigs) on the tubes as they were joined. Then, coldset to take a wheel.

Making the point that "our" Holdsworths have probably already been
coldset at least once. (Please see * below)

There's lots of extra beef in there ("design" factor moot).

Sheldon's caution is something anyone would have to include with this
procedural. Sure, you could start out Force 10 and ruin a frame. Hence
Sheldon's caution; but the somewhat dismissive tone of a few posters
here, who have seen exactly this OLD adjustment done many times, speaks
volumes. "NBD". Repeating, very common when OLD standards changed
because, if for no other reason, flat repair, especially with packs and
fenders on, is (maybe a whole lot) easier if the wheel slides in and
out without having to spread the stays. In the rain, etc.

Perhaps a direct question: Has anyone seen a frame being widened for
130 OLD ruined, in a "professional setting"?

*Just to say: I also had a Roberts ("Club") touring frame, which was
(allegedly, <g>) a low-volume, hand-brazed blah blah English 531 bike
with Campy DO's; specs and measurements almost identical to the
Holdsworth (I splurged on a fancy touring bike, back when I was
touring, late 70's to mid-80's). I always thought the Holdsworth rode
better, for half the price; this is partly why the Holdsworth hangs in
my garage, while the Roberts lives with a Japanese rider/collector.
--Tom Paterson

 

[Jon Blake]

Just another data point - I guess now adding up to the "mountain" of data
points. I had a local shop here in Seattle "cold set" my mid 70s 530
tubing frame to 130 - no problems whatsoever.

Slightly off topic - I had a Holdsworth "competition" model. I bought the
frame in London around 1972. Took it home, built it up and rode it for
years. Wish I still had it. Sloping fork crown, wrap around seat stays,
kind of neat.

Anyone in the group remember Harry Quinn frames?

Anyway, unless it's a point of stubborn hubris, I just can't see why the
OP would hesitate to get a quality shop to do a cold set.

- Jon

 

[[email protected]]

[snip]

Dear Blair,

I hope that you never have to decide whether to have a wart removed.

True, warts are frequently removed by competent surgeons, but what if
something went wrong?

Carl Fogel

 

[Jim Adney]

On 14 Aug 2005 20:30:32 -0700 [email protected] wrote:

>Blair P. Houghton wrote:

>Was that supposed to be dropouts?
>
>> ... are hardened and
>> the surrounding material is not) and once the stays are
>> widened the lug area has to be realigned, which threatens
>> to split the join between these dissimilar metals.
>
>I don't know about any differences between Campy dropouts and Trek
>dropouts, but there was absolutely no problem realigning the Trek
>dropoouts, or the ones on my old Raleigh when I did this, or any other
>bike I know of. Besides, I doubt the brazed area of a dropout would be
>hardened after brazing. You're probably getting it thoroughly annealed
>as you're brazing it.

Gotta agree with Frank here:

No dropouts that I know of, including Campy, are hardened, even before
brazing. They are all quite malleable and are commonly bent and filed
before and after brazing.

If the braze joint comes apart in the process of respacing, then you
should just count your blessings that it did it here, rather than
coming apart on the road.

OTOH, I find that if I try to spread a rear triangle in a single
motion, the bending will generally all occur on one side, so I learned
long ago to do it one side at a time. Spreading a rear triangle will
give you real respect for a quality frame. Cheap frames are easy to
bend, but a well-made steel frame with good quality tubing can take
all your strength. It's best to do this with some leverage of some
kind, in order to keep control of how much it bends. Otherwise you're
likely to overdo it.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney [email protected]
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

 

[A Muzi]

Blair P. Houghton wrote:
> 20 years of stress and release will change a crystalline
> matrix (and yes, all solids are crystals, just some
> aren't pure and regular). Welds and brazings weaken.

I do a lot of frame repair and alignment to vintage frames
and I've seen no evidence of that.

> I'm not confusing frame lugs with dropout lugs, if that's
> what you mean.
> The dropouts themselves are Campagnolo-made hardened lugs
> that Holdsworth welded to the Reynolds tubing.

Your Campagnolo #1010 frame ends are mild steel. quite soft.
It is not welded. It is brazed. I used to buy brazing flux
from Holdsworthy ( really!) it was pink and 1600 degrees.

You note that it is your prerogative to not change this frame.
Absolutely right.
Just don't invent reasons and try to pass them as truth.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[A Muzi]

> Blair P. Houghton wrote:
>>If it was a beater or a new bike, I'd consider it good exercise.
>>But this is my Holdsworth.
>>One slip, and 22 years of history, maybe 40k miles, dumped
>>on the junk-heap.

[email protected] wrote:
> I have a Holdsworth Super Mistral (Black/red panels), first "nice"
> frame I ever bought new, 1980. I toured on it, and then used it for a
> fixed gear bike and single-speed commuter. Probably not 40k miles, but
> at least a lot of the paint is missing...
>
> Yeah, "dogpiling". But maybe sharpening a point or two: My
> understanding is that "coldsetting" stays for alignment is routinely
> done after brazing, when new. I've been told and have read that some
> mass-produced (in bike terms) frames were commonly cold-set by greater
> amounts than what's being discussed here.
-snip-
> Open to correction: I understand the later Holdsworths were furnace
> brazed, which I guess would mean a minimum amount of constraint (no
> jigs) on the tubes as they were joined. Then, coldset to take a wheel.
-snip-

Here's the later (final) Holdsworth facility on Oakfield
road; no 'furnace brazing'.
http://www.yellowjersey.org/hwfact.html

I didn't see any 'hearth brazing'(as it was called then)
when I was at the Putney facility in the early seventies
either.

My own '53 Raleigh _was_ built that way. It's been widened
and even de-pretzeled after an horrific crash but rides
straight to this day. Every day.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[Dennis P. Harris]

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 22:14:27 GMT in rec.bicycles.tech, Blair P.
Houghton <[email protected]> wrote:

> You say it's easy, why don't you pony up and indemnify the
> process against any sort of mechanical error for the $20k
> or so this frame is really worth to me.
>
oh, bullpucky. no frame is worth that much, and you're just
obsessive. PLONK.

 

[41]

A Muzi wrote:

> Here's the later (final) Holdsworth facility on Oakfield
> road; no 'furnace brazing'.
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/hwfact.html

What is photo #7? It looks like the stress relief machine at Trek
described by JB.

Is it always women who build the wheels at large factories?

 

[App]

<Snippage of Fogelisms>

Dear Carl,

Where have you been? I would have thought you would have brought your
own special take on the idiocy expressed by our now-less-esteemed
co-cyclist Blair long before now.

Good to see you participating in the windmill tilting.

My worthless contribution:

Obviously, Blair, given your free-floating anxiety and your amazing
ability to generate false dangers, you don't ride much. Probably not
at all. So what does it matter what's in the back?

Get a pair, you ninny.

App

 

[[email protected]]

A Muzi wrote:
>
> Here's the later (final) Holdsworth facility on Oakfield
> road; no 'furnace brazing'.
>
> I didn't see any 'hearth brazing'(as it was called then)
> when I was at the Putney facility in the early seventies
> either.
>
> My own '53 Raleigh _was_ built that way. It's been widened
> and even de-pretzeled after an horrific crash but rides
> straight to this day. Every day.

Thanks for taking the time to correct old misinformation on Holdsworth,
something repeated to me (you know, as an owner, hearing "hey, those
are furnace brazed"). Well, it had lots of chances to break <g> and
didn't, no matter how the tubes got stuck together.

I didn't mention that the Holdsworth paint/graphics didn't seem to lack
in comparison to the 2x expen$ive Roberts, either. Nice frame, however
many they made, etc. --TP