The one thing that couldn't go wrong, did go wrong.



On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:36:45 -0400, Alex Rodriguez <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I put about 10k miles on a Specialized Epic carbon fiber frame after I just
>jammed in the wider wheel. It was originally spaced for a 126mm wheel and I
>just spread the stays and put in a 130mm wheel. No problems at all. It just
>meant I had spread the stays every time I put the wheel back on. Not a big
>deal. I'm sure someone is still riding that frame.


Eek, on carbon fiber? I wouldn't be so happy with that. Steel, yes,
aluminium, even (though only temporary spreading, not coldsetting), yes,
but CF I'd avoid.

Jasper
 
Blair P. Houghton wrote:

---snipping Blair's concerns---

Ok. Simple solution. Ditch the Neuvations. Look for a pair of NOS 7
speed freehubs (E-bay has tons). These will be 126mm spacing. Have a
LBS build a set of wheels for you. Take your spiffy new 9 speed
casette, and ditch a cog. Place the now 8 speed casette onto the 7
speed freehub. Adjust the limit screws on your rear der. so that you
cannot make the '9th' shift (onto your largest cog). You now have an 8
of 9 on 7 setup (Sheldon describes this process at
http://sheldonbrown.com/k7.html#up7 )
 
A Muzi <[email protected]> wrote:
>Here's the later (final) Holdsworth facility on Oakfield
>road; no 'furnace brazing'.
>http://www.yellowjersey.org/hwfact.html


Way too cool.

Still looking for decals?

I saw some NOS Holdsworth frames for sale at the College
Park Bicycles website, and IIRC there was something about
getting decals included. Don't remember whether it meant
some frame already had decals applied or they would apply
them if you wanted.

--Blair
"Mine's naked."
 
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Blair P. Houghton wrote:
>> The dropouts themselves are Campagnolo-made hardened lugs
>> that Holdsworth welded to the Reynolds tubing.

>
>?? That's not making sense to me. For one thing, isn't it brazed
>construction instead of welded? And regarding the lugs - do you have a
>picture?


http://www.sheldonbrown.com/singlespeed.html

See about halfway down under "Horizontal Dropout Campagnolo
1010". Looks pretty much like mine; and from what I've
seen elsewhere about Holdsworths, the 1010 is one dropout
they used, if not the only one.

The "lug" portion would be everything below and left of
the stays. The triangle, the dropout, and the hangers.

That part is hardened, and was made by Campagnolo,
while the stays are not.

It could be brazed to the stays, but it's finished and
painted, so I can't see exactly what's been done where
they attach to the seatstay and chainstay.

--Blair
"And it'd be kinda hard to find
the guy what did it..."
 
41 <[email protected]> wrote:
>Blair P. Houghton wrote:
>
>It's exasperating or amusing to watch you and JB talk past each other
>over the axle length. All he is saying is that the required frame
>spacing is determined by the hub and cogset width, because that is the
>unalterable part of the equaiton. From that, you determine the correct


But in this case, we're not altering the frame spacing.

I can choose hubs and cogsets.

>overlocknut distance. If the axle is too long, hacksaw off the excess
>or even use nutted fittings instead of a QR. If it's two mm on each
>side you may not even have to make any correction. Thus the axle length
>is not the determining factor, although in practice most people just
>change the axle instead of hacksawing it.


I can't find replacement axles anywhere, though the
Internet isn't really the place to be looking for exotic
parts, even if it's the place to look for the people who
have the exotic parts. (They aren't often the sort of
people who put every part online...)

I've seen indications that I shouldn't have had any problem
getting a 130-mm axle into my 126-mm frame, but that frame
wasn't budging, so I don't know what's going on there.
The spring constant is way too high (because it's not a
lack of arm strength on my part, he said, curling 70 lbs
in either hand).

And even if I get a 126-mm axle, I'm now certain there's
no room for a 9-speed.

>Well, my way of thinking is, classic bike, plenty of 13-2x freewheels
>available NOS on eBay, less than 13 teeth no great use, you should be
>able to use a classic setup with no problem and no practical
>disadvantages. Your old hub is probably just fine, all you need is a
>new rim and to lace it to the old hub. If you can get a rim with the
>same ERD you can even reuse the spokes.


The hub isn't as fine as it could be. When the wheel
turns and the freewheel is held stationary (e.g., as
in coasting), you can see the freewheel orbit a little.
It's been that way as long as I can remember. The wheel
doesn't have an eccentricity, though, so the eccentricity
is between the axle and the freewheel.

I could get a replacement freewheel, but I think I need
a whole new rear wheel. Very few 126-mm setups out there.

>Good luck with whatever you end up doing.o


Right now, because I changed chains, I'm effectively
riding a fixie. Every cog but the 16T skips under
heavy load. I really needed that rear to work. But it's
okay, because as soon as I leave the driveway I shift
into 52/16, and I don't shift out until I'm cooling down
(and I'm avoiding the one big hill in the neighborhood).
I've probably logged 99% of my miles the past year in
that gear. Which is probably why it's the only combination
that will accept the new chain, though you'd suspect it
should be the other way around...

--Blair
"Just like riding a bike."
 
Dennis P. Harris <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 22:14:27 GMT in rec.bicycles.tech, Blair P.
>Houghton <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> You say it's easy, why don't you pony up and indemnify the
>> process against any sort of mechanical error for the $20k
>> or so this frame is really worth to me.
>>

>oh, bullpucky. no frame is worth that much, and you're just
>obsessive. PLONK.


I work about 100 feet from a guy who paid $3 million for
a baseball he never hit himself.

Conversely, in the right context, no frame is worth the
price of postage.

So you want me to be happy? Send me a nice Bianchi road
frame in my size, and I'll send you the price of the
postage, and you'll be way ahead on the deal. In the
original Celeste, if you have one.

And get that plonking sound checked. That's what clued
me my front wheel was losing spoke-hole rivets.

--Blair
"Which is where this all began."
 
<[email protected]> wrote:
>[snip]
>
>Dear Blair,
>
>I hope that you never have to decide whether to have a wart removed.
>
>True, warts are frequently removed by competent surgeons, but what if
>something went wrong?
>
>Carl Fogel


I'd end up like you?

--Blair
"Warts and all."
 
App <[email protected]> wrote:
><Snippage of Fogelisms>
>
>Dear Carl,
>
>Where have you been? I would have thought you would have brought your
>own special take on the idiocy expressed by our now-less-esteemed
>co-cyclist Blair long before now.
>
>Good to see you participating in the windmill tilting.
>
>My worthless contribution:
>
>Obviously, Blair, given your free-floating anxiety and your amazing
>ability to generate false dangers, you don't ride much. Probably not
>at all. So what does it matter what's in the back?


"you don't ride much, probably not at all"

Why do you argue when you can just make up things you know are
false.

>Get a pair, you ninny.


I have a pair. The front is on the bike. The rear is leaning
against a cabinet in the garage, because it doesn't fit the bike.

--Blair
"They're bigger than yours."
 
StaceyJ <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Blair P. Houghton wrote:
>
>---snipping Blair's concerns---
>
>Ok. Simple solution. Ditch the Neuvations. Look for a pair of NOS 7
>speed freehubs (E-bay has tons). These will be 126mm spacing. Have a


Some will. Not many mention 126mm in the ads, and those
that do aren't NOS, they're recycled. And 36 spokes...

>LBS build a set of wheels for you. Take your spiffy new 9 speed
>casette, and ditch a cog. Place the now 8 speed casette onto the 7
>speed freehub. Adjust the limit screws on your rear der. so that you
>cannot make the '9th' shift (onto your largest cog). You now have an 8
>of 9 on 7 setup (Sheldon describes this process at
>http://sheldonbrown.com/k7.html#up7 )


That's in the list of possibilities already.

It'd be nice to keep the Neuvation rim and spokes (they're
all aero) and find a compatible hub. But how many 24-spoke,
126-mm hubs are there?

--Blair
"Until something else breaks,
the status is quo."
 
Blair P. Houghton wrote:
> 41 <[email protected]> wrote:


> >Well, my way of thinking is, classic bike, plenty of 13-2x freewheels
> >available NOS on eBay, less than 13 teeth no great use, you should be
> >able to use a classic setup with no problem and no practical
> >disadvantages. Your old hub is probably just fine, all you need is a
> >new rim and to lace it to the old hub. If you can get a rim with the
> >same ERD you can even reuse the spokes.

>
> The hub isn't as fine as it could be. When the wheel
> turns and the freewheel is held stationary (e.g., as
> in coasting), you can see the freewheel orbit a little.
> It's been that way as long as I can remember. The wheel
> doesn't have an eccentricity, though, so the eccentricity
> is between the axle and the freewheel.


This has nothing to do with the hub, it is the freewheel alone, and it
is perfectly normal. All freewheels do that and there is nothing wrong
with it. It does not reduce performance and you don't even have to
think about it.


> I could get a replacement freewheel, but I think I need
> a whole new rear wheel. Very few 126-mm setups out there.


No, there are plenty of them. They are available new as aftermarket
completely usable inexpensive wheels; or you can get Phil Wood hubs in
any spacing and with almost any drilling. Their standard drilling goes
down only to 28, but I do believe you can ask them to make a 24 for
you. With whatever axle spacing. Maybe Bullseye or other similar do the
same.

Additionally, when I was looking for 32 or 36H 120mm, I saw plenty of
what you want on eBay, Campagnolo Record, best Maillard, Sunshine,
Suntour, Normandy, others. They go for a reduced price because of the
unusual drilling and if you know how to look you will find. They are
not advertised that way in the titles usually, because it is not a
selling point and they want people to take a look first.

But your old hub is just fine. Just get a new rim and freewheel, reuse
the old spokes as per JB's book, and you will be golden.
 
41 <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Blair P. Houghton wrote:
>> 41 <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>> >Well, my way of thinking is, classic bike, plenty of 13-2x freewheels
>> >available NOS on eBay, less than 13 teeth no great use, you should be
>> >able to use a classic setup with no problem and no practical
>> >disadvantages. Your old hub is probably just fine, all you need is a
>> >new rim and to lace it to the old hub. If you can get a rim with the
>> >same ERD you can even reuse the spokes.

>>
>> The hub isn't as fine as it could be. When the wheel
>> turns and the freewheel is held stationary (e.g., as
>> in coasting), you can see the freewheel orbit a little.
>> It's been that way as long as I can remember. The wheel
>> doesn't have an eccentricity, though, so the eccentricity
>> is between the axle and the freewheel.

>
>This has nothing to do with the hub, it is the freewheel alone, and it
>is perfectly normal. All freewheels do that and there is nothing wrong
>with it. It does not reduce performance and you don't even have to
>think about it.


Why would all freewheels need to be eccentric?

>> I could get a replacement freewheel, but I think I need
>> a whole new rear wheel. Very few 126-mm setups out there.

>
>No, there are plenty of them. They are available new as aftermarket
>completely usable inexpensive wheels; or you can get Phil Wood hubs in
>any spacing and with almost any drilling. Their standard drilling goes
>down only to 28, but I do believe you can ask them to make a 24 for
>you. With whatever axle spacing. Maybe Bullseye or other similar do the
>same.


Thanks. I'll look them up.

>Additionally, when I was looking for 32 or 36H 120mm, I saw plenty of
>what you want on eBay, Campagnolo Record, best Maillard, Sunshine,
>Suntour, Normandy, others. They go for a reduced price because of the
>unusual drilling and if you know how to look you will find. They are
>not advertised that way in the titles usually, because it is not a
>selling point and they want people to take a look first.


What did you search on? I tried "126mm hub" and variants thereof.
Found one hub. Maillard. Looks to be 36-hole.

>But your old hub is just fine. Just get a new rim and freewheel, reuse
>the old spokes as per JB's book, and you will be golden.


Are you saying that JB recommends using the 27-inch-wheel
spokes with 700C rims?

--Blair
"The man thinks of everything.
Even things nobody should."
 
On 21 Aug 2005 05:00:55 -0700, "41" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Additionally, when I was looking for 32 or 36H 120mm, I saw plenty of
>what you want on eBay, Campagnolo Record, best Maillard, Sunshine,
>Suntour, Normandy, others. They go for a reduced price because of the
>unusual drilling and if you know how to look you will find.


32/36 is considered an unusual drilling for rear hubs?


Jasper
 
On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 23:31:49 GMT, Blair P. Houghton <[email protected]> wrote:

>41 <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>Blair P. Houghton wrote:
>>> 41 <[email protected]> wrote:

>>
>>> >Well, my way of thinking is, classic bike, plenty of 13-2x freewheels
>>> >available NOS on eBay, less than 13 teeth no great use, you should be
>>> >able to use a classic setup with no problem and no practical
>>> >disadvantages. Your old hub is probably just fine, all you need is a
>>> >new rim and to lace it to the old hub. If you can get a rim with the
>>> >same ERD you can even reuse the spokes.
>>>
>>> The hub isn't as fine as it could be. When the wheel
>>> turns and the freewheel is held stationary (e.g., as
>>> in coasting), you can see the freewheel orbit a little.
>>> It's been that way as long as I can remember. The wheel
>>> doesn't have an eccentricity, though, so the eccentricity
>>> is between the axle and the freewheel.

>>
>>This has nothing to do with the hub, it is the freewheel alone, and it
>>is perfectly normal. All freewheels do that and there is nothing wrong
>>with it. It does not reduce performance and you don't even have to
>>think about it.

>
>Why would all freewheels need to be eccentric?


They don't "need" to be, they just are.

>>> I could get a replacement freewheel, but I think I need
>>> a whole new rear wheel. Very few 126-mm setups out there.

>>
>>No, there are plenty of them. They are available new as aftermarket
>>completely usable inexpensive wheels; or you can get Phil Wood hubs in
>>any spacing and with almost any drilling. Their standard drilling goes
>>down only to 28, but I do believe you can ask them to make a 24 for
>>you. With whatever axle spacing. Maybe Bullseye or other similar do the
>>same.

>
>Thanks. I'll look them up.
>
>>Additionally, when I was looking for 32 or 36H 120mm, I saw plenty of
>>what you want on eBay, Campagnolo Record, best Maillard, Sunshine,
>>Suntour, Normandy, others. They go for a reduced price because of the
>>unusual drilling and if you know how to look you will find. They are
>>not advertised that way in the titles usually, because it is not a
>>selling point and they want people to take a look first.

>
>What did you search on? I tried "126mm hub" and variants thereof.
>Found one hub. Maillard. Looks to be 36-hole.


Nobody much advertises that the wheel has a 126mm hub, but they sure do tell you
if it's a 7speed.

>>But your old hub is just fine. Just get a new rim and freewheel, reuse
>>the old spokes as per JB's book, and you will be golden.

>
>Are you saying that JB recommends using the 27-inch-wheel
>spokes with 700C rims?
>
> --Blair
> "The man thinks of everything.
> Even things nobody should."


Yes, he does.
Ron
 
Blair P. Houghton wrote:

> 41 wrote:
> >
> >Blair P. Houghton wrote:


> >> The hub isn't as fine as it could be. When the wheel
> >> turns and the freewheel is held stationary (e.g., as
> >> in coasting), you can see the freewheel orbit a little.
> >> It's been that way as long as I can remember. The wheel
> >> doesn't have an eccentricity, though, so the eccentricity
> >> is between the axle and the freewheel.

> >
> >This has nothing to do with the hub, it is the freewheel alone, and it
> >is perfectly normal. All freewheels do that and there is nothing wrong
> >with it. It does not reduce performance and you don't even have to
> >think about it.

>
> Why would all freewheels need to be eccentric?


They don't. However many of them are. The only concern is aesthetic as
a small eccentricity hurts nothing and is present only when coasting.
>
> >> I could get a replacement freewheel, but I think I need
> >> a whole new rear wheel. Very few 126-mm setups out there.

> >
> >No, there are plenty of them. They are available new as aftermarket
> >completely usable inexpensive wheels; or you can get Phil Wood hubs in
> >any spacing and with almost any drilling. Their standard drilling goes
> >down only to 28, but I do believe you can ask them to make a 24 for
> >you. With whatever axle spacing. Maybe Bullseye or other similar do the
> >same.

>
> Thanks. I'll look them up.
>
> >Additionally, when I was looking for 32 or 36H 120mm, I saw plenty of
> >what you want on eBay, Campagnolo Record, best Maillard, Sunshine,
> >Suntour, Normandy, others. They go for a reduced price because of the
> >unusual drilling and if you know how to look you will find. They are
> >not advertised that way in the titles usually, because it is not a
> >selling point and they want people to take a look first.

>
> What did you search on? I tried "126mm hub" and variants thereof.
> Found one hub. Maillard. Looks to be 36-hole.


I have some Maillard stuff around if you decide to go that way. I still
use the original front hub on my 25 year old Mariposa.
>
> >But your old hub is just fine. Just get a new rim and freewheel, reuse
> >the old spokes as per JB's book, and you will be golden.

>
> Are you saying that JB recommends using the 27-inch-wheel
> spokes with 700C rims?


Boy, I hope that was some sort of rhetorical question.
>
> --Blair
> "The man thinks of everything.
> Even things nobody should."


--
Ted Bennett
 
Blair P. Houghton wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >Blair P. Houghton wrote:
> >> The dropouts themselves are Campagnolo-made hardened lugs
> >> that Holdsworth welded to the Reynolds tubing.

> >
> >?? That's not making sense to me. For one thing, isn't it brazed
> >construction instead of welded? And regarding the lugs - do you have a
> >picture?

>
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/singlespeed.html
>
> See about halfway down under "Horizontal Dropout Campagnolo
> 1010". Looks pretty much like mine; and from what I've
> seen elsewhere about Holdsworths, the 1010 is one dropout
> they used, if not the only one.
>
> The "lug" portion would be everything below and left of
> the stays. The triangle, the dropout, and the hangers.
>
> That part is hardened, and was made by Campagnolo,
> while the stays are not.
>
> It could be brazed to the stays, but it's finished and
> painted, so I can't see exactly what's been done where
> they attach to the seatstay and chainstay.


Your terminology is wrong. The dropout is everything lefward and
downward of the frame tube. It comes in one piece. See
http://www.bikeschool.com/emporium/index.cgi?c=Steel Frame Parts&sc=Dropouts&id=43729444815
or http://tinyurl.com/7zgq7 for other examples.

Or see Sheldon's page again.

And you're wrong about the method of construction. The forged dropouts
are forged in one piece. They are brazed into the frame. There is
normally no welding involved. And they are not hardened.

- Frank Krygowski
 
On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 05:38:47 GMT Blair P. Houghton <[email protected]> wrote:

>See about halfway down under "Horizontal Dropout Campagnolo
>1010". Looks pretty much like mine; and from what I've
>seen elsewhere about Holdsworths, the 1010 is one dropout
>they used, if not the only one.
>
>The "lug" portion would be everything below and left of
>the stays. The triangle, the dropout, and the hangers.
>
>That part is hardened, and was made by Campagnolo,
>while the stays are not.


If you care to stop by sometime, I have a supply of Campy 1010s,
1010As, and 1010Bs which I'll let you take a file to. None of them are
hardened. Not the verticals, either.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney [email protected]
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------
 
Jasper Janssen wrote:
> On 21 Aug 2005 05:00:55 -0700, "41" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Additionally, when I was looking for 32 or 36H 120mm, I saw plenty of
> >what you want on eBay, Campagnolo Record, best Maillard, Sunshine,
> >Suntour, Norm andy, others. They go for a reduced price because of the
> >unusual drilling and if you know how to look you will find.

>
> 32/36 is considered an unusual drilling for rear hubs?


No, that's what I was looking for. He wants 24.
 
Blair P. Houghton wrote:
> StaceyJ <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >Blair P. Houghton wrote:
> >
> >---snipping Blair's concerns---
> >
> >Ok. Simple solution. Ditch the Neuvations. Look for a pair of NOS 7
> >speed freehubs (E-bay has tons). These will be 126mm spacing. Have a

>
> Some will. Not many mention 126mm in the ads, and those
> that do aren't NOS, they're recycled. And 36 spokes...
>
> >LBS build a set of wheels for you. Take your spiffy new 9 speed
> >casette, and ditch a cog. Place the now 8 speed casette onto the 7
> >speed freehub. Adjust the limit screws on your rear der. so that you
> >cannot make the '9th' shift (onto your largest cog). You now have an 8
> >of 9 on 7 setup (Sheldon describes this process at
> >http://sheldonbrown.com/k7.html#up7 )

>
> That's in the list of possibilities already.
>
> It'd be nice to keep the Neuvation rim and spokes (they're
> all aero) and find a compatible hub. But how many 24-spoke,
> 126-mm hubs are there?
>
> --Blair
> "Until something else breaks,
> the status is quo."



Dear Blair P. Houghton

Go away and never come back.

Thanks,

Ed
 
On 22 Aug 2005 00:13:55 -0700, "41" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Jasper Janssen wrote:
>> On 21 Aug 2005 05:00:55 -0700, "41" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >Additionally, when I was looking for 32 or 36H 120mm, I saw plenty of
>> >what you want on eBay, Campagnolo Record, best Maillard, Sunshine,
>> >Suntour, Norm andy, others. They go for a reduced price because of the
>> >unusual drilling and if you know how to look you will find.

>>
>> 32/36 is considered an unusual drilling for rear hubs?

>
>No, that's what I was looking for. He wants 24.


Ah, yes. Getting a 48 might be easier, in fact.


Jasper
 
Blair P. Houghton wrote:

>
> It'd be nice to keep the Neuvation rim and spokes (they're
> all aero) and find a compatible hub. But how many 24-spoke,
> 126-mm hubs are there?


Lots of 130mm hubs are offered.

You wouldn't believe A. Muzi who took the time to offer the benefit of
his 30+ years' "takin' care of the public" experience, or any of the
other posters.

How about a large, respected tool maker that makes tools to bend the
dropouts that are "designed" (as you put it) to be bent (certainly not
"hardened")?

Here you go, look how much dropout bending (and possible cold setting
of the stays) is being carried out here:

http://www.parktool.com/repair_help/FFG.shtml

You could have a frame in which you could use any number of 130mm hubs,
or you could continue to putz around with axles and spacers and cogs
and limit screws, and struggling to jam a 130mm OLD axle set into a 120
or 126mm-wide space. And posting to r.b.t., of course. Best wishes.
--D-y