The Pedestrian on Path Overtake Conundrum

Discussion in 'Commuting and Road Safety' started by bob12345, Apr 22, 2003.

  1. mark_melb

    mark_melb New Member

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    Sorry, not all of listen to Norah Jones and need 'rules' for every little thing in life.
     


  2. mark_melb

    mark_melb New Member

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    Stop whining, you are starting to sound like an Isreali.
     
  3. Echinacea

    Echinacea New Member

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    a good rule of thumb is to treat pedestrians as you would have automobile drivers treat you.
     
  4. jessloader

    jessloader New Member

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    Yes we obviously do need rules for every single little thing because there's people like you in the world who don't give a damn about anybody else except making your "centuries". Or whatever you do. Hey, a little hint.....maybe instead of acting like a spoiled brat you could actually answer my questions. As for your highly tasteless comment on Isrealis, I can only say......case in point. It makes me sad that you live in a place where you feel you need to make fun of a very oppressed culture. It shows how mindless you really are. I wish someone else would reply because I can't get one intelligent comment from you. And finally, you are an ambassador for your sport......you are the one fueling the hatred towards your sport. I pity Australia for having you as a citizen. Treat others as you have do unto you.....with this being said, you probably get beat every day.........boo hoo
     
  5. mark_melb

    mark_melb New Member

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    Hey, I was not making fun of the Palestinians only the Israelis. I thing you have gotten lost. This is a c...y...c...l...i...n...g forum. I have seen nothing but anti cyclist comments from you. This forum is for promoting cycling if you have not noticed. Do you walk around with a cloud over your head?
     
  6. jessloader

    jessloader New Member

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    I'm lost? I thought this thread was about pedestrians on the path. Hello! That's me. I'm not saying ALL cyclists run over people and kids and dogs, but there are many that do without so much of a blink of an eye. I'm wondering why cyclists who DO think like pedestrians owe cyclists the right of way, think the way they do. It's puzzling, because a year or so ago, I never had one thought about cyclists. And you ask if I have a cloud over my head? No, but I do walk with limp since being struck and left by a cyclist. And this isn't an isolated incident. A seeing-eye puppy I was training was killed by one, and now I feel I have to protect myself. This whole subject most definetly pertains to cycling. If you can't see that.....what more can I do but go about the only way I feel safe.
     
  7. tanyaq

    tanyaq New Member

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    I take it that you yourself are not, and have never been a cyclist.

    IMO, sidewalks are for pedestrians. If for some reason (and this is really rare) I feel compelled to use the sidewalk while on a bicycle, I either dismount it and walk it, or slow down to little more than pedestrian speed, riding carefully and overtaking with a foot down on the sidewalk.

    Multi-user paths are different. Some seem to be set up primarily as bike paths and some are truly multi-purpose recreational trails. On the primarily bike path ones often times there is an equal pedestrian facility right next to the path (sidewalk, boardwalk or whatnot) and so a cyclist may feel the pedestrian should yield to the cyclist if they are on the bike path. Obviously most cyclists will still try to accomodate the pedestrian as nobody likes having accidents, and cyclists have been killed running into pedestrians before.

    As far as ones clearly posted as MUP with speed limits for the cyclists I think the problem is just lack of facilities for cyclists. Some cyclists that are not comfortable riding on the roads may feel frustrated there is no place for them to ride at all. The problem can also be one of numbers as well - if a path has 20 cyclists on it for every pedestrian you are going to perceive it as a "cycling" trail and expect to be able to move at a reasonable speed.

    When moving quickly and a pedestrian crosses your path (especially on twisty trails with low visibility ahead) it is difficult to brake in time. Passing is difficult if there are people walking abreast across the whole lane. And then there becomes the I see you, you see me, which way do I move conundrum, and if both the cyclist and pedestrian try to move the same way, not so good!

    Keeping to the right except to pass is generally a good rule for all users of multi-user paths.
     
  8. stevenaleach

    stevenaleach New Member

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    I would point out that if they are telling you to get on the road... they're right. The sidewalk is for pedestrians, not vehicles. get off the sidewalk.
     
  9. stevenaleach

    stevenaleach New Member

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    My taxes pay for jails as well, but that doesn't mean that I want to stay in one.

    If there happened to be a bike path that connected me to my destination, I would take it rather than the road, of course. This has never happened. I have yet to discover a bike path running between my house and the grocery store or the college for instance.

    As is, the bike paths serve for recreation only ( And yes, my wife and I do use one just for recreational riding... but we don't exactly get anywhere useful). I think they probably do much more harm than good as far as respect that we (don't) recieve from drivers. It makes bikes look like recreational devices... they aren't, or at least no more so than a car. A bike is transportation pure and simple. I think bike paths make drivers even less likely to recognize the fact that we belong on the road. Even worse, of course, is cyclists who ride on sidewalks. Most drivers actually think that that is where bikes belong, and it is BECAUSE of the people that ride there.


    Why don't we have "Car paths". 25 mph speed limit roads that go about 20 miles without ever getting anywhere... enough room to turn around but no actual destinations to stop at and then they just dead end...
     
  10. stevenaleach

    stevenaleach New Member

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    It's too bad that we don't know where this guy is actually from and etc. The police in his town need to be aware that he is a dangerous individual who has willfully tried to cause death or injury to cyclists. Maybe they could put pictures of him along with his name and address at the start of the path so that cyclists would know who it was that just assaulted them. That way they would have more to report to the police than a description of his cowardly behind as it ran away. (That is assuming that they haven't suffered a major concussion and are still concious and able to see)
     
  11. stevenaleach

    stevenaleach New Member

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    No, the message was referring to sidewalks, not paths.

    Sidewalks are for pedestrians only.

    "Bike Paths" are shared paths for bikes, joggers, skates, whatever.

    Streets and roads are for all vehicles including bicycles, much to the dissatisfaction of motorists.

    Bike Lanes are for bicycles only only.
     
  12. stevenaleach

    stevenaleach New Member

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    That is something to remember. Motorists aren't ALL trying to be rude when they honk (Though I get the impression that most are)... In fact, drivers are taught to beep to warn cyclists before passing.

    The fact that there is no way to tell the difference between a friendly "passing on your left" beep and a "get the hell off the road with that piece of junk toy you freaking idiot" beep is, unfortunately, our problem... not theirs.
     
  13. jessloader

    jessloader New Member

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    Okay, I agree that keeping to the right is the best rule, however, my beef is that the cyclists refuse to slow down when they pass. They whiz by at speeds over 15 miles/hr and think that a little bell is notice enough and slowing down is futile.
    The park I speak of is primarily for off-leash dogs and secondarily for cyclists. There are signs everywhere that say to yield to pedestrians and to keep speeds slow because of low-visibilty. Yet when you say anything, they verbally abuse you and say that they have the right of way.
    I think this attitude came from too many times of the pedestrian jumping out of the way as to avoid conflict.
    I'm saying that whether you're in a rush or not, or on your way to work or whatever, you must slow down to pass otherwise, you're making a very unsafe environment for everyone.
    But of course, common sense is not all that common.
    And by the way, I do own a bicycle but I'd never go so far as saying I'm a cyclist. What a burn that would be!!
     
  14. stevenaleach

    stevenaleach New Member

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    Ahhh yet another reason to assert your right to the road rather than being scared off by cars on to bikepath. I don't think anyone would consider 15 miles an hour excessive on the road.

    Today I was stopped at a traffic light (a Loooonnng traffic light) and a passenger in a vehicle behind me yelled "Yo, why don't you get on the sidewalk". I know this was meant as a retorical question but I chose to answer it anyway...

    1) The sidewalk is for pedestrian traffic, not vehicular.

    2) It is unsafe for pedestrians who could get hit.

    3) It is unsafe for cyclists who are 30 times more likely to be hit by riding on sidewalks.

    4) The roadway is the proper place for vehicular traffic. That is what the road is for.

    5) Sidewalks here are not maintained well enough for bicycles (other than mountain bikes) to ride on.

    6) It's called the law.

    7) Those who ride on sidewalks should be ticketed and fined.

    I realize, of course, that this guy didn't listen and learned nothing but at least I tried.

    BTW: I used to run 2 miles in 13 minutes on PT tests in the army. I am a lousy runner. This is basically a fast jog for two miles, If i tried to go faster I would be worn out too quickly. That comes out to about 9.23 MPH... I'm sure most people could go much faster (Like 15 MPH or more) for shorter distances like a quarter mile or so.

    A quick web search for average walking/jogging/running speeds gave me a physics site which stated that a human may reach 20 mph running.

    Basically saying that 15 miles per hour is unreasonable and dangerous is saying that riding any faster than a jogging/runner could go is unreasonable. Therefore the bicycle is an unsafe and unreasonable invention since the entire purpose is to be able to travel faster and farther than can be done on foot. Should joggers slow down to a walking pace to pass? Should runners drop to a slow jog to pass walkers?

    Or, heres an idea, cyclists who don't want to put up with verbal abuse and potential assult from pedestrians for traveling at a moderate to slow pace can ride on the road instead.

    Think of the benefits:

    1) the more of us there are, the more motorists will get used to it and quit telling us to ride on the sidewalk.

    2) There are a hell of a lot more miles of road than there are bike paths.

    3) Think of it as a training aid helping to increase your average speed. Instead of being heckled for going too fast, you will get heckled for going too slow and be inspired to speed up.

    4) You get to actually go places by riding on the street.. thats what the street is there for you know.. useful things like work, school, grocery stores, etc. are rarely located on the bike path.

    5) Transportation... kindof what the bicycle was invented for. Sure, cycling is also fun, but that doesn't mean it is only or even mostly an entertainment activity.

    6) Population control. Constantly pissing off fat guys in SUVs by making them reach the next traffic light 1 second later will cause them to have their heart attacks earlier therefore reducing the population by one.

    I'm not totally against bike paths, but I think there are significant downside that are ignored. Bike paths promote the idea that cycling is just a recreational activity. By providing a seperate place for cyclists to ride, the idea is promoted (for drivers and cyclists alike) that riding on the road is unsafe/wrong/to be avoided at all costs. Bike paths create the impression for drivers that bicycles don't really belong on the streets and roads.
     
  15. JoeRider

    JoeRider New Member

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    If I make noise, bell, downshift, airhorn, or whatever, half the time the move right into my path..arhhhhg. I usually take the street, unless it a wooded path with nothing near by. Then I just take to the grass and go around.

    JR
     
  16. jessloader

    jessloader New Member

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    Yeah!!! You actually agree with me! Sort of. I also think cyclists shouldn't be allowed on these paths. It is dangerous for all involved. I wish these cyclists would use the road so I don't have to stay in the brush to avoid them hitting me again.
    I am one of the few drivers out there that don't mind cyclists, in fact I think it's great because of health and pollution factors. But in the parks, speed is a killer.
    And by the way, all the cyclists were going at least 20mph and if they were fast they were going 30+mph. There is also the slow, inexperienced who go 15-20mph. The problem is with the avid, experienced riders who scream past. I know these speeds are acurate because I've measured it.
    Here's hoping everyone will listen and stick to the roads!!!!!
     
  17. stevenaleach

    stevenaleach New Member

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    Wow, you have quite a tallent for twisting other people's words and arriving at completely different meanings than intended. Have you considered a post in the Bush administration?

    Cyclists shouldn't be allowed on bike paths? That would cause a bit of confusion wouldn't it... they would then have to call them bikeless paths... oh wait, we already have those.. they are called expressways.... and sidewalks. If you see a cyclist going 15 mph or for that matter 5 mph on either then you have an excellent reason to complain.

    As you stated, they are mixed use paths. roads without sidewalks are also mixed use paths. Why is it then that it is not necessary for cars (or bikes) to slow to ten miles an hour when passing pedestrians who are walking along the edge of the roadway? because common sense and rules come together beautifully. pedestrians do not walk down the center of the road.

    If you are truely disturbed/angered by the speed at which cyclists pass you on bike paths, then there IS an alternative. Pedestrian only walkways do in fact exist. They are called SIDEWALKS. That is what they are there for. If you are passed by a cyclist on a sidewalk, then you do in fact have a perfectly valid compaint as they are not suppsed to be there to begin with.

    Of course many people DO ride on the sidewalk even though they shouldn't. But at least you would have a valid reason to be angry.

    Oh, and I must congratulate you on your dedication to your obsession, if not to reason. Since you claim to have measured the speed of all passing cyclists, I can only assume that you carry a radar gun on your daily walks. This is behaviour above and beyond the call of just plain wierd.
     
  18. franklen

    franklen New Member

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    I wonder how many paths are specifically marked (and clearly marked) as bike only? If this is the case, then peds beware, otherwise, peds get the right of way, and cyclists should slow down for safety sake. If the cyclist wants to go 15,20,30 mph, etc, then get on the road, or bike lane of the road. I myself have never seen a pathway designated as bike only (unless it was the bike lane of the roadway). Many paths that share use between cyclists, peds, rollerbladers, skateboarders, etc have to be that way because there is no parallel sidewalk, why should there be? We don't need a path for each activity, just some courtesy and thoughtfulness.
     
  19. jessloader

    jessloader New Member

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    Yeah franklen!! Cyclists that like to go fast should stay off recreational paths and stick to the road where speed is neccesary.
    I was being facetious when I said cyclists shouldn't use the path at all. I was just making a point which franklen said for me, "We don't need a path for each activity, just some courtesy and thoughtfulness." That's what I'm talking about. Why don't more people have that attitude?
    Why do cyclists refuse to yield to pedestrians in parks with signs everywhere saying "slow" and "yield to pedestrians"?
    stevenaleach then asked me why cars don't have to slow down for pedestrians on the sidewalk, well of course they don't, but they sure do when they're in a playground zone. In a playground zone, it doesn't matter what the hell some kid is doing in the road, but a driver or a cyclist still must yield to them in these designated areas.
    Well, the park I'm speaking of is the same thing. It's a playground, which luckily has a path going right through it. It's nice in the winter, so your pants don't get soaked, but a downfall is that cyclists have claimed the path as their own. What's so hard about slowing down? Isn't it just being nice to a fellow park user? But instead all you get is the shake of the head. Sometimes I think I'm being rude because they're in a far worse position than I if they can't decipher a simple road sign. Tsk. Tsk.
    So then what's the solution? Well, stevenaleach says, getting out of the parks and using a sidewalk. That's about as good of a solution as no bicycles on the path suggestion.
    I'm here to find out WHY these cyclists I encounter are so pissed by the idea of slowing to pass. If I happen to pass a cyclist somewhere on a one-lane road, I'm not going to jet through....I'm going to slow down and give some room.... Maybe I'm being too nice. What? Would you rather me tear past you on some road somewhere? Giving you inches to work with? I hardly think you would. What makes you think it's okay to a pedestrian?
    Just because you can handle your bike doesn't mean you can go as fast as you want. My Chevelle goes 150mph, but do you think I always go that fast? No, that would be reckless.
    Granted, 30 and 150 is a big difference, but to an unprotected and unsuspecting pedestrian, it carries relative force. Just ask my surgeon.
    Oh, and I didn't have the radar gun, the cop who came to the park with me sure did so I could try and identify the cyclist who had blindsided me and then took off.
    It's too bad that they couldn't monitor the park more frequently, but honestly, it's even more sad that cyclists have to be such a problem. I know it's not all of you out there, but it's more than half!!!!!!
    Why can't we all just get a bong?
     
  20. Insight Driver

    Insight Driver New Member

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    Staying on this topic, in Sacramento, California there is a bicycle trail that is mixed-use and the rules are posted at nearly every access point on the 30 mile trail. Most of the time I have no problem, but on weekends when the trail use is heaviest there are parks adjacent where people do spill onto the path.

    I have to slow down for people are unpredictable. It is standard courtesey on this trail to announce, "passing on the left." Sure enough, some fraction of people turn around in a start and move to the left!

    For that matter, I have had to slow down quickly for the cyclist who decides to turn around, mid-trail, without looking behind him/her to see if the path is clear.

    I understand where some folks are coming from. Many mixed-use trails are just that, but mostly pedestrian. I am fortunate to live where there is a primarily bicyclist trail with pedestrians and roller bladers allowed, but not skateboards.

    Most people who frequent the bike path I ride are aware of the cyclists and move to the side when one or a group are approaching. There are rude or clueless people, though, who walk the path as if it they owned it. At times like that I wish I had the forthought to carry a leaflet that explains the rules of the trail to hand to them.
     
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