The real loser

Quoted message said:

Scott said:

Quoted message said:

Your mention Vinokourov brings to mind the recent report that his
teammates have been exonerated by the Spainish judge. They have
petitioned to be reinstated. It would seem that these circumstances
would be of interest on rbr, but there has been only silence. Is
this of no consequence?

If I understand correctly, and there's a huge probability that I don't,
the Spanish judge has only cleared them from the perspective of
compliance with Spanish law. He has no jurisdiction nor has he claimed
any, to release them from any potential violations of UCI/WADA rules.
They're separate issues and perhaps they haven't been completely
exonerated from that suspicion.

Scott

I think your interpertation is absolutely correct. The basis for my
question though is that since the envolvement in the Spanish case was
the basis for their suspension the removal of the basis would impact
their participation. An arcance system this guilty by suspicion.
Do you feel comfortable with it? Does it concern you that so much
is being surrender for the sake of minor an interest as "sports
integrity"?

I'm not too terribly over concerned about it, as I keep telling myself
that we're not talking about a god-given right to race bicycles.

We're talking about individuals who've agreed to a set of rules
governing the terms of their employment. As long as they're treated
within the realm of the typical employment scenario, I don't have a
problem with a racer or group of racers not being allowed to
participate in a specific event.

Folks are suspended from work with pay, or in some cases without pay,
during periods of investigation into alleged work-related wrong doing
all the time. And, sometimes people are fired, just because. It's
life.

Scott said:

Quoted message said:

Scott said:

[email hidden] wrote:
>
> Your mention Vinokourov brings to mind the recent report that his
> teammates have been exonerated by the Spainish judge. They have
> petitioned to be reinstated. It would seem that these circumstances
> would be of interest on rbr, but there has been only silence. Is
> this of no consequence?

If I understand correctly, and there's a huge probability that I don't,
the Spanish judge has only cleared them from the perspective of
compliance with Spanish law. He has no jurisdiction nor has he claimed
any, to release them from any potential violations of UCI/WADA rules.
They're separate issues and perhaps they haven't been completely
exonerated from that suspicion.

Scott

I think your interpertation is absolutely correct. The basis for my
question though is that since the envolvement in the Spanish case was
the basis for their suspension the removal of the basis would impact
their participation. An arcance system this guilty by suspicion.
Do you feel comfortable with it? Does it concern you that so much
is being surrender for the sake of minor an interest as "sports
integrity"?

I'm not too terribly over concerned about it, as I keep telling myself
that we're not talking about a god-given right to race bicycles.

We're talking about individuals who've agreed to a set of rules
governing the terms of their employment. As long as they're treated
within the realm of the typical employment scenario, I don't have a
problem with a racer or group of racers not being allowed to
participate in a specific event.

Folks are suspended from work with pay, or in some cases without pay,
during periods of investigation into alleged work-related wrong doing
all the time. And, sometimes people are fired, just because. It's
life.

See your point. On the other hand, riders are held by to the ridicule
of the press and the scorn of an incited mob.

Quoted message said:

See your point. On the other hand, riders are held by to the ridicule
of the press and the scorn of an incited mob.

Reporting suspected and actual drug use is not ridicule. Crappy
reporting, perhaps. What's ridiculous are the denials and excuses when
caught red handed.

Incited mobs knock you down and kick you to a pulp, sometimes even to
death.

These are important distictions, be aware of them.

Gabe Brovedani

p.s. r.b.r is not a mob.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Scott

(') said:

in all of this (assuming Landis loses his title) is Kloden. Were it
not for Landis and Phonak giving Pereiro 30 minutes, he'd have finished
back around 20th place (or worse). But, thanto the gift from the
alleged doper, he finds himself in 2nd w/ Kloden in 3rd.

Take out Landis, and the gift to Pereiro, and you have Kloden, the
rightful winner.

Oh, don't be ridiculous. T-Mo didn't have to wait for Phonak to chase on
stage 13, they could have chased themselves. They didn't. They chose not
to. Tough. Pereiro worked hard for his victory, never gave up, and
deserves what he has got.

The real people who were cheated out of a chance of winning are Jan
Ullrich and Ivan Basso, neither of whom have failed a drugs test, and
Vinokourov against whom no investigation has been brought. The fact that
they were excluded while Landis was allowed to race is outrageously
unjust.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; this is not a .sig

Your mention Vinokourov brings to mind the recent report that his
teammates have been exonerated by the Spainish judge. They have
petitioned to be reinstated. It would seem that these circumstances
would be of interest on rbr, but there has been only silence. Is
this of no consequence?

Well, I think there's definitely been a lot of Wurthless discussion
about the Tour and its aftermath.

No, seriously: that's the really sad part. "Oh, by the way, that part
where we accused half your team of doping and excluded all of you from
the Tour? We're totally sorry about that. No hard feelings, right? And
we really, really hope you can pick up a new title sponsor. No harm, no
foul, right?"

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Scott said:

Quoted message said:

Your mention Vinokourov brings to mind the recent report that his
teammates have been exonerated by the Spainish judge. They have
petitioned to be reinstated. It would seem that these circumstances
would be of interest on rbr, but there has been only silence. Is
this of no consequence?

If I understand correctly, and there's a huge probability that I don't,
the Spanish judge has only cleared them from the perspective of
compliance with Spanish law. He has no jurisdiction nor has he claimed
any, to release them from any potential violations of UCI/WADA rules.
They're separate issues and perhaps they haven't been completely
exonerated from that suspicion.

Scott

I think your interpertation is absolutely correct. The basis for my
question though is that since the envolvement in the Spanish case was
the basis for their suspension the removal of the basis would impact
their participation. An arcance system this guilty by suspicion.
Do you feel comfortable with it? Does it concern you that so much
is being surrender for the sake of minor an interest as "sports
integrity"?

Well, I for one have repeatedly taken the stance that the anti-doping
forces out there were often their own worst enemies in making the
anti-doping case, and I say that as someone who, in the abstract, stands
clearly in the Lafferty-Pound continuum of doping theory. And I think
both of those guys bring disrepute on the cause.

But then, there's a whole bunch of things that would be better if I ran
the zoo. Ryan for Secretary-General of the UN on the LIVEDRUNK ticket!

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

In article <[email hidden]>,

Mark said:

"Scott" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

in all of this (assuming Landis loses his title) is Kloden. Were it
not for Landis and Phonak giving Pereiro 30 minutes, he'd have finished
back around 20th place (or worse). But, thanks to the gift from the
alleged doper, he finds himself in 2nd w/ Kloden in 3rd.

Take out Landis, and the gift to Pereiro, and you have Kloden, the
rightful winner.

Well, the loser is Wim Vansevenant, as he was the only one who didn't dope
and should have been the rightful winner.

Quoted message said:

That's spelled D-A-V-I-D M-I-L-L-A-R.

On the line is not out,

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

In article <[email hidden]>,

Scott said:

Sandy said:

Scott a écrit :

Quoted message said:

in all of this (assuming Landis loses his title) is Kloden. Were it
not for Landis and Phonak giving Pereiro 30 minutes, he'd have finished
back around 20th place (or worse). But, thanks to the gift from the
alleged doper, he finds himself in 2nd w/ Kloden in 3rd.

Take out Landis, and the gift to Pereiro, and you have Kloden, the
rightful winner.

The rider crossing the line at the end with the least elapsed time is
the winner. Or are you looking for excuses why you don't manage to win ?

I wasn't looking for an excuse for anything, except for an excuse for a
topic of discussion.

By the way, I won a 10 lap tempo race on the track last week. First
win in longer than I care to remember. I don't think my T/E ratio had
anything to do with it, but I can assure you I had a ragingly high
testosterone level afterwards! Strong, like bull! Funny how winning
makes you feel strong.

hmmmm, maybe I'm on to something. Perhaps it was the win that lead to
Floyd's skewed T/E ratio, not the other way around???? Anybody got any
contact info for his legal team? I'd like to share my thoughts with
them. Being a self-appointed RBR expert, my theory will surely hold up
in court, right?

Scott

www.believescott.com

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

in message <[email hidden]>,

(') said:

Simon Brooke said:

The real people who were cheated out of a chance of winning are Jan
Ullrich and Ivan Basso, neither of whom have failed a drugs test, and
Vinokourov against whom no investigation has been brought. The fact
that they were excluded while Landis was allowed to race is
outrageously unjust.

Your mention Vinokourov brings to mind the recent report that his
teammates have been exonerated by the Spainish judge.

Irrelevant. What they were suspected of was not criminal, so of course
they've been exonerated. It doesn't mean there isn't evidence they were
blood doping, it just means that blood doping in itself is not illegal
in Spain. Of course, it doesn't mean they were blood doping, either; it
just gives us no new infomation.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; making jokes about dyslexia isn't big, it isn't clever and
;; it isn't furry.

Gabe Brovedani said:

Incited mobs knock you down and kick you to a pulp, sometimes even to
death.

These are important distictions, be aware of them.

Gabe Brovedani

p.s. r.b.r is not a mob.

Not even a virtual one ? We need to work harder and improve.

Ryan Cousineau said:

But then, there's a whole bunch of things that would be better if I ran
the zoo. Ryan for Secretary-General of the UN on the LIVEDRUNK ticket!

Presumably you'd supply both sides of a conflict with an unlimited supply
of alcohol.

Ray_Manor said:

Quoted message said:

Your mention Vinokourov brings to mind the recent report that his
teammates have been exonerated by the Spainish judge.

Simon Brooke said:

Irrelevant. What they were suspected of was not criminal, so of course
they've been exonerated. It doesn't mean there isn't evidence they were
blood doping, it just means that blood doping in itself is not illegal
in Spain. Of course, it doesn't mean they were blood doping, either; it
just gives us no new infomation.

In that case surely Basso and Ullrich would also be exonerated ?

Quoted message said:

See your point. On the other hand, riders are held by to the ridicule
of the press and the scorn of an incited mob.

Their paycheck comes directly and indirectly from the level of
exposure the sport gets. If things happen, they are going to get the
same level of exposure. BTW, 'scorn of an incited mob' is certainly a
curious figure of speech - I'm seeing a huge screaming mob coming
together to scorn a rider. Sure beats the scene where they begin to
pick up rocks. I'm seeing mob scorning as sort of shunning with
adrenaline...

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

Donald Munro said:

Gabe Brovedani said:

Incited mobs knock you down and kick you to a pulp, sometimes even to
death.

These are important distictions, be aware of them.

Gabe Brovedani

p.s. r.b.r is not a mob.

Not even a virtual one ? We need to work harder and improve.

Damn, I'm always forgetting the importance of virtuality. It's back to
the bottle for me.

Gabe

That is true in the USA, but we're talking about Europe, where job
security
is much greater. For example, a couple of years ago, at the Orly
airport in Paris,
a stewardess died when
she fell off the ladder leading up to her plane. The driver of the
ladder machine
was suspended (with pay, I assume) and his union immediately went on
strike expressing their anger at this underserved sanction. An
investigation
later showed that he had moved the ladder away while the stewardess was
on it. The union never expressed any regret about the death.

Moreover, in France, if you are a civil servant, it is almost
impossible to fire someone, let alone saction them. The errant judge of
the
Outreau case, who, in his first case erroneously kept a dozen people in
jail
for years, was never sanctioned, despite the many errors found in the
official
report. In last year's French riots, there were policemen
who kicked some underaged persons in the head, in front of many
witnesses,
and when they were put in jail (with pay), their colleagues staged a
"work to rule"
policy until they were released. I assume that 9 month later they have
been
decorated, if not promoted.

-ilan

Scott said:

Folks are suspended from work with pay, or in some cases without pay,
during periods of investigation into alleged work-related wrong doing
all the time. And, sometimes people are fired, just because. It's
life.

Gabe Brovedani said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

p.s. r.b.r is not a mob.

Donald Munro said:

Quoted message said:

Not even a virtual one ? We need to work harder and improve.

Gabe Brovedani said:

Damn, I'm always forgetting the importance of virtuality. It's back to
the bottle for me.

Virtual sticks and stones break virtual bones.

Scott said:

First win in longer than I care to remember.

Does it go back to the day a promoter had the smart idea of combining
the open women with the 45+ men and you got some unusual "help" from a
female teammate. That was a forgettable day for everyone involved :-)

Bret

Scott said:

in all of this (assuming Landis loses his title) is Kloden. Were it
not for Landis and Phonak giving Pereiro 30 minutes, he'd have finished
back around 20th place (or worse). But, thanks to the gift from the
alleged doper, he finds himself in 2nd w/ Kloden in 3rd.

Take out Landis, and the gift to Pereiro, and you have Kloden, the
rightful winner.

Reminds me of what my dad used to say: "If we had some ham, we could
have ham and eggs, if we had some eggs." If, if, if. Nobody knows
what would have happened. Individual psyches and strategies change
with different leaders, different scenarios, and different individual
team members' actions. There are too many variables all around to say
what might have been with any certainty.

N.

in message <[email hidden]>, Donald

Munro (') said:

Ray_Manor said:

Quoted message said:

Your mention Vinokourov brings to mind the recent report that his
teammates have been exonerated by the Spainish judge.

Simon Brooke said:

Irrelevant. What they were suspected of was not criminal, so of course
they've been exonerated. It doesn't mean there isn't evidence they
were blood doping, it just means that blood doping in itself is not
illegal in Spain. Of course, it doesn't mean they were blood doping,
either; it just gives us no new infomation.

In that case surely Basso and Ullrich would also be exonerated ?

Doubtless they would be if they asked. They haven't asked, I presume,
since there's no point.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Morning had broken, and I found when I looked that we had run out
of copper roove nails.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Gabe Brovedani said:

Donald Munro said:

Gabe Brovedani said:

Incited mobs knock you down and kick you to a pulp, sometimes even to
death.

These are important distictions, be aware of them.

Gabe Brovedani

p.s. r.b.r is not a mob.

Not even a virtual one ? We need to work harder and improve.

Damn, I'm always forgetting the importance of virtuality. It's back to
the bottle for me.

Gabe

rbr would have to raise its level of discourse to qualify as a mob.

LIVEDRUNK reminds you to drink irresponsibly,

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

In article <[email hidden]>,

Donald Munro said:

Ryan Cousineau said:

But then, there's a whole bunch of things that would be better if I ran
the zoo. Ryan for Secretary-General of the UN on the LIVEDRUNK ticket!

Presumably you'd supply both sides of a conflict with an unlimited supply
of alcohol.

Good gravy. Picking between Jewish (Mogen David) and Islamic
(drink=damnation) attitudes towards alcohol has led me to a deep,
personal understanding of the true horror of recent events.

Yes, I just used a violent mid-east conflict to make a LIVEDRUNK joke,

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos