the Shimano 10sp/9sp alloy freehub problem again - a solution!

[Bleve]

Our local American Classic rep came in to the LBS on Wednesday, and
showed us some new lightweight clinchers, which in itself was of no
particular interest.

*but*

He also showed us some shims for their 9sp alloy freehub to make it
work properly with 10sp casettes to avoid dig in like this :

http://www.aboc.com.au/images/galleries/20060116-bontrager-freehub/DSCF6994.html

We pressed him to see if AC would sell the shims as spare parts, and
he'll get back to us on it. But, it may be a hack to get around the
current problem with 10sp Ultegra & Dura-Ace cassettes on 9sp alloy
freehubs.

 

[jim beam]

Bleve wrote:
> Our local American Classic rep came in to the LBS on Wednesday, and
> showed us some new lightweight clinchers, which in itself was of no
> particular interest.
>
> *but*
>
> He also showed us some shims for their 9sp alloy freehub to make it
> work properly with 10sp casettes to avoid dig in like this :
>
> http://www.aboc.com.au/images/galleries/20060116-bontrager-freehub/DSCF6994.html
>
> We pressed him to see if AC would sell the shims as spare parts, and
> he'll get back to us on it. But, it may be a hack to get around the
> current problem with 10sp Ultegra & Dura-Ace cassettes on 9sp alloy
> freehubs.
>
a shim won't do it - it doesn't bear the torque load. they need to
address the problem properly like shimano did - make the teeth deeper or
use a steel/ti cassette body. have them do the math on the loading per
unit area of the cog splines on the aluminum cassette body. aluminum's
just not strong enough - as if that's not already evident.

 

[Bleve]

jim beam wrote:
> Bleve wrote:
> > Our local American Classic rep came in to the LBS on Wednesday, and
> > showed us some new lightweight clinchers, which in itself was of no
> > particular interest.
> >
> > *but*
> >
> > He also showed us some shims for their 9sp alloy freehub to make it
> > work properly with 10sp casettes to avoid dig in like this :
> >
> > http://www.aboc.com.au/images/galleries/20060116-bontrager-freehub/DSCF6994.html
> >
> > We pressed him to see if AC would sell the shims as spare parts, and
> > he'll get back to us on it. But, it may be a hack to get around the
> > current problem with 10sp Ultegra & Dura-Ace cassettes on 9sp alloy
> > freehubs.
> >
> a shim won't do it - it doesn't bear the torque load.

A steel shim might. I'm going to see if it'll work on my bontrager
wheel before I risk it on my good wheels

 

[jim beam]

Bleve wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>
>>Bleve wrote:
>>
>>>Our local American Classic rep came in to the LBS on Wednesday, and
>>>showed us some new lightweight clinchers, which in itself was of no
>>>particular interest.
>>>
>>>*but*
>>>
>>>He also showed us some shims for their 9sp alloy freehub to make it
>>>work properly with 10sp casettes to avoid dig in like this :
>>>
>>>http://www.aboc.com.au/images/galleries/20060116-bontrager-freehub/DSCF6994.html
>>>
>>>We pressed him to see if AC would sell the shims as spare parts, and
>>>he'll get back to us on it. But, it may be a hack to get around the
>>>current problem with 10sp Ultegra & Dura-Ace cassettes on 9sp alloy
>>>freehubs.
>>>
>>
>>a shim won't do it - it doesn't bear the torque load.
>
>
> A steel shim might. I'm going to see if it'll work on my bontrager
> wheel before I risk it on my good wheels
>
a single spacer that makes up the difference in width between 9 & 10
speed cassettes won't make any difference to individual cog point
loading - there's no difference in torque transfer.

 

[Phil Lee, Squid]

jim beam wrote:
> Bleve wrote:
>> Our local American Classic rep came in to the LBS on Wednesday, and
>> showed us some new lightweight clinchers, which in itself was of no
>> particular interest.
>>
>> *but*
>>
>> He also showed us some shims for their 9sp alloy freehub to make it
>> work properly with 10sp casettes to avoid dig in like this :
>>
>> http://www.aboc.com.au/images/galleries/20060116-bontrager-freehub/DSCF6994.html
>>
>> We pressed him to see if AC would sell the shims as spare parts, and
>> he'll get back to us on it. But, it may be a hack to get around the
>> current problem with 10sp Ultegra & Dura-Ace cassettes on 9sp alloy
>> freehubs.
>>
> a shim won't do it - it doesn't bear the torque load. they need to
> address the problem properly like shimano did - make the teeth deeper
> or use a steel/ti cassette body. have them do the math on the
> loading per unit area of the cog splines on the aluminum cassette
> body. aluminum's just not strong enough - as if that's not already
> evident.

Not a radial shim... an axial shim.
--
Phil Lee, Squid

 

[jim beam]

Phil Lee, Squid wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>
>>Bleve wrote:
>>
>>>Our local American Classic rep came in to the LBS on Wednesday, and
>>>showed us some new lightweight clinchers, which in itself was of no
>>>particular interest.
>>>
>>>*but*
>>>
>>>He also showed us some shims for their 9sp alloy freehub to make it
>>>work properly with 10sp casettes to avoid dig in like this :
>>>
>>>http://www.aboc.com.au/images/galleries/20060116-bontrager-freehub/DSCF6994.html
>>>
>>>We pressed him to see if AC would sell the shims as spare parts, and
>>>he'll get back to us on it. But, it may be a hack to get around the
>>>current problem with 10sp Ultegra & Dura-Ace cassettes on 9sp alloy
>>>freehubs.
>>>
>>
>>a shim won't do it - it doesn't bear the torque load. they need to
>>address the problem properly like shimano did - make the teeth deeper
>>or use a steel/ti cassette body. have them do the math on the
>>loading per unit area of the cog splines on the aluminum cassette
>>body. aluminum's just not strong enough - as if that's not already
>>evident.
>
>
> Not a radial shim... an axial shim.

but to fit between an existing cassette body and cog set, it would have
to be thin like foil and therefore not much use, right?

 

[Bleve]

jim beam wrote:
> Phil Lee, Squid wrote:
> > jim beam wrote:
> >
> >>Bleve wrote:
> >>
> >>>Our local American Classic rep came in to the LBS on Wednesday, and
> >>>showed us some new lightweight clinchers, which in itself was of no
> >>>particular interest.
> >>>
> >>>*but*
> >>>
> >>>He also showed us some shims for their 9sp alloy freehub to make it
> >>>work properly with 10sp casettes to avoid dig in like this :
> >>>
> >>>http://www.aboc.com.au/images/galleries/20060116-bontrager-freehub/DSCF6994.html
> >>>
> >>>We pressed him to see if AC would sell the shims as spare parts, and
> >>>he'll get back to us on it. But, it may be a hack to get around the
> >>>current problem with 10sp Ultegra & Dura-Ace cassettes on 9sp alloy
> >>>freehubs.
> >>>
> >>
> >>a shim won't do it - it doesn't bear the torque load. they need to
> >>address the problem properly like shimano did - make the teeth deeper
> >>or use a steel/ti cassette body. have them do the math on the
> >>loading per unit area of the cog splines on the aluminum cassette
> >>body. aluminum's just not strong enough - as if that's not already
> >>evident.
> >
> >
> > Not a radial shim... an axial shim.
>
> but to fit between an existing cassette body and cog set, it would have
> to be thin like foil and therefore not much use, right?

They're not very thick, but not foil. When I get some, I'll photograph
them and put them up for you to see.

 

[jim beam]

Bleve wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>
>>Phil Lee, Squid wrote:
>>
>>>jim beam wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Bleve wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Our local American Classic rep came in to the LBS on Wednesday, and
>>>>>showed us some new lightweight clinchers, which in itself was of no
>>>>>particular interest.
>>>>>
>>>>>*but*
>>>>>
>>>>>He also showed us some shims for their 9sp alloy freehub to make it
>>>>>work properly with 10sp casettes to avoid dig in like this :
>>>>>
>>>>>http://www.aboc.com.au/images/galleries/20060116-bontrager-freehub/DSCF6994.html
>>>>>
>>>>>We pressed him to see if AC would sell the shims as spare parts, and
>>>>>he'll get back to us on it. But, it may be a hack to get around the
>>>>>current problem with 10sp Ultegra & Dura-Ace cassettes on 9sp alloy
>>>>>freehubs.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>a shim won't do it - it doesn't bear the torque load. they need to
>>>>address the problem properly like shimano did - make the teeth deeper
>>>>or use a steel/ti cassette body. have them do the math on the
>>>>loading per unit area of the cog splines on the aluminum cassette
>>>>body. aluminum's just not strong enough - as if that's not already
>>>>evident.
>>>
>>>
>>>Not a radial shim... an axial shim.
>>
>>but to fit between an existing cassette body and cog set, it would have
>>to be thin like foil and therefore not much use, right?
>
>
> They're not very thick, but not foil. When I get some, I'll photograph
> them and put them up for you to see.
>
thank you!

 

[[email protected]]

On 6 Jul 2006 17:58:48 -0700, "Bleve" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>Our local American Classic rep came in to the LBS on Wednesday, and
>showed us some new lightweight clinchers, which in itself was of no
>particular interest.
>
>*but*
>
>He also showed us some shims for their 9sp alloy freehub to make it
>work properly with 10sp casettes to avoid dig in like this :
>
>http://www.aboc.com.au/images/galleries/20060116-bontrager-freehub/DSCF6994.html
>
>We pressed him to see if AC would sell the shims as spare parts, and
>he'll get back to us on it. But, it may be a hack to get around the
>current problem with 10sp Ultegra & Dura-Ace cassettes on 9sp alloy
>freehubs.

Dear Bleve,

Are these "shims" that you saw the "clips" shown in this pdf?

http://www.amclassic.com/tech/pdf/10-SpeedClipsDura-Ace.pdf

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

 

[Bleve]

[email protected] wrote:

> Dear Bleve,
>
> Are these "shims" that you saw the "clips" shown in this pdf?
>
> http://www.amclassic.com/tech/pdf/10-SpeedClipsDura-Ace.pdf

Yep, that's them.

 

[Bleve]

Bleve wrote:
> Our local American Classic rep came in to the LBS on Wednesday, and
> showed us some new lightweight clinchers, which in itself was of no
> particular interest.
>
> *but*
>
> He also showed us some shims for their 9sp alloy freehub to make it
> work properly with 10sp casettes to avoid dig in like this :
>
> http://www.aboc.com.au/images/galleries/20060116-bontrager-freehub/DSCF6994.html
>
> We pressed him to see if AC would sell the shims as spare parts, and
> he'll get back to us on it. But, it may be a hack to get around the
> current problem with 10sp Ultegra & Dura-Ace cassettes on 9sp alloy
> freehubs.

This is what Easton have to say about it (after I got myself a pair of
Orion II's and asked them about 10sp issues) :

Carl,

Excellent information. You are correct that Shimano 9spd bodies
will have some "gouging" when running a 10spd cassette. We have see
this (not to the extent you are having with your Bontrager) in the past
but never so sever that it requires more that a light tap with a
plastic mallet to free the cassette. Lightly greasing the cassette body
will help reduce wear.

We do plan on making a 10spd only body but that is still a long way
off. The reason American classic make that "shim" is because they don't
have the "thick" splines on their shimano bodies. They try to save
weight by making each spline the same width as the index spline
(smallest spline), this makes it possible to tear all the way through
the American Classic body.

I hope this information helps. Please feel free to ask any more
question.

Adam Marriott

Easton Sports Inc.

 

[BrettS]

Bleve wrote:
>
>
> This is what Easton have to say about it (after I got myself a pair of
> Orion II's and asked them about 10sp issues) :
>
> Carl,
>
> Excellent information. You are correct that Shimano 9spd bodies
> will have some "gouging" when running a 10spd cassette. We have see
> this (not to the extent you are having with your Bontrager) in the past
> but never so sever that it requires more that a light tap with a
> plastic mallet to free the cassette. Lightly greasing the cassette body
> will help reduce wear.
>
> We do plan on making a 10spd only body but that is still a long way
> off. The reason American classic make that "shim" is because they don't
> have the "thick" splines on their shimano bodies. They try to save
> weight by making each spline the same width as the index spline
> (smallest spline), this makes it possible to tear all the way through
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> the American Classic body.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Holy ****! That would be one exciting sprint when that happened!

>
> I hope this information helps. Please feel free to ask any more
> question.
>
> Adam Marriott
>
> Easton Sports Inc.
>

 

[Bleve]

BrettS wrote:
> Bleve wrote:
> >
> >
> > This is what Easton have to say about it (after I got myself a pair of
> > Orion II's and asked them about 10sp issues) :
> >
> > Carl,
> >
> > Excellent information. You are correct that Shimano 9spd bodies
> > will have some "gouging" when running a 10spd cassette. We have see
> > this (not to the extent you are having with your Bontrager) in the past
> > but never so sever that it requires more that a light tap with a
> > plastic mallet to free the cassette. Lightly greasing the cassette body
> > will help reduce wear.
> >
> > We do plan on making a 10spd only body but that is still a long way
> > off. The reason American classic make that "shim" is because they don't
> > have the "thick" splines on their shimano bodies. They try to save
> > weight by making each spline the same width as the index spline
> > (smallest spline), this makes it possible to tear all the way through
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > the American Classic body.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Holy ****! That would be one exciting sprint when that happened!

One vendor bagging another, I suspect it's something of an
overstatement

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

Bleve wrote:
> Our local American Classic rep came in to the LBS on Wednesday, and
> showed us some new lightweight clinchers, which in itself was of no
> particular interest.
>
> *but*
>
> He also showed us some shims for their 9sp alloy freehub to make it
> work properly with 10sp casettes to avoid dig in like this :
>
> http://www.aboc.com.au/images/galleries/20060116-bontrager-freehub/DSCF6994.html
>
> We pressed him to see if AC would sell the shims as spare parts, and
> he'll get back to us on it. But, it may be a hack to get around the
> current problem with 10sp Ultegra & Dura-Ace cassettes on 9sp alloy
> freehubs.

OR just stay away from these crappy hubs and wheels...

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

Bleve wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
> > Bleve wrote:
> > > Our local American Classic rep came in to the LBS on Wednesday, and
> > > showed us some new lightweight clinchers, which in itself was of no
> > > particular interest.
> > >
> > > *but*
> > >
> > > He also showed us some shims for their 9sp alloy freehub to make it
> > > work properly with 10sp casettes to avoid dig in like this :
> > >
> > > http://www.aboc.com.au/images/galleries/20060116-bontrager-freehub/DSCF6994.html
> > >
> > > We pressed him to see if AC would sell the shims as spare parts, and
> > > he'll get back to us on it. But, it may be a hack to get around the
> > > current problem with 10sp Ultegra & Dura-Ace cassettes on 9sp alloy
> > > freehubs.
> > >
> > a shim won't do it - it doesn't bear the torque load.
>
> A steel shim might. I'm going to see if it'll work on my bontrager
> wheel before I risk it on my good wheels

Or just make a steel freehub body???

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

Bleve wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
> > Bleve wrote:
> > > Our local American Classic rep came in to the LBS on Wednesday, and
> > > showed us some new lightweight clinchers, which in itself was of no
> > > particular interest.
> > >
> > > *but*
> > >
> > > He also showed us some shims for their 9sp alloy freehub to make it
> > > work properly with 10sp casettes to avoid dig in like this :
> > >
> > > http://www.aboc.com.au/images/galleries/20060116-bontrager-freehub/DSCF6994.html
> > >
> > > We pressed him to see if AC would sell the shims as spare parts, and
> > > he'll get back to us on it. But, it may be a hack to get around the
> > > current problem with 10sp Ultegra & Dura-Ace cassettes on 9sp alloy
> > > freehubs.
> > >
> > a shim won't do it - it doesn't bear the torque load.
>
> A steel shim might. I'm going to see if it'll work on my bontrager
> wheel before I risk it on my good wheels

Why not try it on a set of wheels based around a shimano or Campag or
even DT hubset, instead of wheels outta boxes..like AC, Bontrager,
etc.....