the term "islamo-fascism", valid?

[lyotard]

here in the us this term has been used in the media of late, a recent spate of white house press releases and official talking heads have used this term in the media, and it is now being given commonplace use in the media/political arena.

fact is, a cursory "google" for this gets no hits for dictionary definition references, and i would think, in any regard, the commonly understood definition of "fascist" would be of dubious validity when combined with a religious generalization...funny how we do not hear of "judeo-christian fascism", for example.

i wonder, one, what people think about the use of this term, it's acceptibility, validity, and implications,
and two, if it is being used in the mainstream media in the UK.

 

[lyotard]

here in the us this term has been used in the media of late, a recent spate of white house press releases and official talking heads have used this term in the media, and it is now being given commonplace use in the media/political arena.

fact is, a cursory "google" for this gets no hits for dictionary definition references, and i would think, in any regard, the commonly understood definition of "fascist" would be of dubious validity when combined with a religious generalization...funny how we do not hear of "judeo-christian fascism", for example.

i wonder, one, what people think about the use of this term, it's acceptibility, validity, and implications,
and two, if it is being used in the mainstream media in the UK.

 

[darkboong]

i wonder, one, what people think about the use of this term, it's acceptibility, validity, and implications,
and two, if it is being used in the mainstream media in the UK.

It doesn't make any sense to me. In response I think that calling people who use that phrase "Ignorant Illiterate ****tards" makes far more sense. The phrase has been coined in order to conflate Islam with the Nazi movement, which is ironic because what the media is doing is doing is *EXACTLY* what the Nazis did in terms of racism towards the Jews. On a wider scale the US and UK governments are following in Hitlers footsteps. ******'s grand design for Europe, mandated that he impose his ideas of architecture, government and culture upon the nations and states by conquest (ie: military force), which is precisely what the UK, Israel and US are trying to do right now in the Middle East.

I can't recommend "Inside the Third Reich" by Albert Speer enough, the game plan he exposes and the methods used to achieve it are exactly the same as the one being executed by the US, UK and Israel. The "Coalition" troops are using the exact same tactics that the Nazi controlled Wehrmacht used, right down to eliminating adult males (eg: Falluja), mass imprisonment without charge or recourse to due process. Here in the UK the Police (and to a degree the Public) are have got to the point where they are reproducing Kristalnacht against Muslims (27% of all people harrassed/questioned/incarcerated on suspsicion of terrorism are of Asian/Arab *appearance*, against a backdrop of 12% of the population being of that group). I never ever thought that I would see this country follow ******'s pre-war Nazi Germany so closely. It makes me ashamed to hold a British Passport, ashamed to see Blair pontificating and justifying jackbooted racism on a massive scale and even more ashamed to see the mainstream media support and engage in the process.

I haven't seen a single apology printed in the mainstream media for their reporting of the Forest Gate suspects. See the following URL for the specifics.

http://www.counterpunch.org/marqusee06222006.html

Both Carrera and myself fell for the hype too, thankfully the Police are still following some kind ethical standard because they released the pair without charge DESPITE THE REPEATED ACCUSATIONS THAT THEY HAD EVIDENCE OF WRONGDOING AGAINST THEM. Surely the editors of the newspapers must have smelt a rat when that happened, so why didn't they apologise for slandering those poor sods ? My guess is that they so greedy and so afraid that they will (quite rightly) be taken to the cleaners in the law courts that they don't want to admit liability.

The good thing is that Nazi Germany crumbled under the sheer weight of dissent within and outside of it's ranks. We have to hope that common decency towards your fellow man will also play it's part in this day and age, because quite frankly there is no massive military machine that will swing into action to defend against this immoral crusade.

 

[limerickman]

here in the us this term has been used in the media of late, a recent spate of white house press releases and official talking heads have used this term in the media, and it is now being given commonplace use in the media/political arena.

fact is, a cursory "google" for this gets no hits for dictionary definition references, and i would think, in any regard, the commonly understood definition of "fascist" would be of dubious validity when combined with a religious generalization...funny how we do not hear of "judeo-christian fascism", for example.

i wonder, one, what people think about the use of this term, it's acceptibility, validity, and implications,
and two, if it is being used in the mainstream media in the UK.

I find the term "islamo-fascism" or "islamo-fascist" offensive and unacceptable.
I believe that it is an American term - or a term used in America.

The use of language to advocate a particular line of ideology is always compromised when invoked by either side.

The term islamo-fascism is not used in Britain.

 

[darkboong]

I find the term "islamo-fascism" or "islamo-fascist" offensive and unacceptable.
I believe that it is an American term - or a term used in America.

The use of language to advocate a particular line of ideology is always compromised when invoked by either side.

The term islamo-fascism is not used in Britain.

I am pretty sure I've seen Mel P use it in one of her articles. She probably lifted it from Daniel Pipes et al. They really are a bunch of rancid vicious hateful xenophobic meglomaniacs. If anyone in this world needs a conviction followed by a bullet between the eyes in Iraq it's that crew.

 

[Weisse Luft]

I am pretty sure I've seen Mel P use it in one of her articles. She probably lifted it from Daniel Pipes et al. They really are a bunch of rancid vicious hateful xenophobic meglomaniacs. If anyone in this world needs a conviction followed by a bullet between the eyes in Iraq it's that crew.

From Wiki:

Fascism is also typified by totalitarian attempts to impose state control over all aspects of life: political, social, cultural, and economic. The fascist state regulates and controls (as opposed to nationalizing) the means of production. Fascism exalts the nation, state, or race as superior to the individuals, institutions, or groups composing it. Fascism uses explicit populist rhetoric; calls for a heroic mass effort to restore past greatness; and demands loyalty to a single leader, often to the point of a cult of personality.

Ever been to an Islamic theocratic state?

Read on...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamo-fascism

 

[Wurm]

"Fascism is also typified by totalitarian attempts to impose state control over all aspects of life: political, social, cultural, and economic. The fascist state regulates and controls (as opposed to nationalizing) the means of production. Fascism exalts the nation, state, or race as superior to the individuals, institutions, or groups composing it. Fascism uses explicit populist rhetoric; calls for a heroic mass effort to restore past greatness; and demands loyalty to a single leader, often to the point of a cult of personality."

A very good definition of the BushCo admin. and the last 2 Congresses.

 

[Weisse Luft]

"Fascism is also typified by totalitarian attempts to impose state control over all aspects of life: political, social, cultural, and economic. The fascist state regulates and controls (as opposed to nationalizing) the means of production. Fascism exalts the nation, state, or race as superior to the individuals, institutions, or groups composing it. Fascism uses explicit populist rhetoric; calls for a heroic mass effort to restore past greatness; and demands loyalty to a single leader, often to the point of a cult of personality."

A very good definition of the BushCo admin. and the last 2 Congresses.

You are so full of yourself. Deregulation has been the norm for the past decade. There has been no political control over the opposition, more like the opposition has been badgering things like the fairness doctrine (limiting free speech), campaign finance reform (ok, so McCain co-sponsored it, he was hoodwinked and the Supreme Court, minus its last two apointees, ruled it legal) and what again is the President's stance on immigration?

Do you have a CLUE of reality?

 

[wolfix]

After the news tonight about the Sears Tower and last weeks Canadian news I feel an effort must be stepped up to deal with the Islam fraction in this country. Even if they are citizens.

I notice the liberals on the left coast are not speaking out against Bush and Rice talking strong with the N.Koreans. Especially since the missle will reach them and more then likely they would be the target. Things change when you are in the sights.

And I notice no one in this forum has brought up the report that was released several days ago about Saddam's program he had going previous to the war concerning WMD.

And where are the civil rights people speaking out against the insurgents torturing the 2 soldiers? Not a word.

Liberals expose themselves for what they are.

And the book "Inside the Third Riech" by Speer does not show a comparision of Hitlers agenda and the US/Britain's agenda. ******'s armies had intentions of staying. The big talk now in Congress, actually 2 votes today in Congress, show that the US/Allies have intentions of a general pullout, with the Iraqi's in charge of their own country. Go back and read that book again. Look at the difference.

The mass imprisionment of males ? Tell me how the US/Allies have implemented a plan of mass imprisonment.

You're argument that the police are practicing "Kristalnacht" against the Muslims does not tell the truth. In the US , Muslims are a very high percentage of the terrorists arrested and convicted today. They are a very small percentage of the population, but are the majority of terrorists. Only a fool would not look at them with a more suspicious eye then say a "hispanic immigrant."

 

[Wurm]

And I notice no one in this forum has brought up the report that was released several days ago about Saddam's program he had going previous to the war concerning WMD.

I notice none of you fascist supporters bring up the fact that it was supplied to Saddam's Iraq by the Reagan & Bush admin's in the 80's - now there's a dog chasing its tail, eh?

Read Norm Chomsky's investigations, for instance.

And where are the civil rights people speaking out against the insurgents torturing the 2 soldiers? Not a word.

Perhaps retaliation for what the US Army & Marines did at Falluja and Haditha?

The mass imprisionment of males ? Tell me how the US/Allies have implemented a plan of mass imprisonment.

Gitmo. Abu Ghraib. Not-so-secret CIA "rendition" gulags in Eastern Europe, Egypt, etc.

 

[Wurm]

Do you have a CLUE of reality?

For a dose of reality, see above post.

 

[darkboong]

From Wiki:
Ever been to an Islamic theocratic state?

No, I doubt that it's possible. A key component of Fascism is Nationalism, the Muslim faith is multinational and multicultural by definition, argueably more so than Christianity for example.

From Wiki:
Read on...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamo-fascism

Not entirely sure what kind of a point you are trying to make there. From the article it seems to me that raging xenophobes intent on promoting hate crime use the term. Personally I don't think it's appropriate or helpful.

 

[darkboong]

You are so full of yourself. Deregulation has been the norm for the past decade.

Read Albert Speer's "Inside the Third Reich". He categorically illustrates a close link between industry and the Nazi party. The Nazi party was very pro-business, they did a remarkable job of turning the economy around in a few short years. The downside was that it was all geared towards nationalism and conquest through violence.

There has been no political control over the opposition,

You must be turning a blind eye to the wire-tapping, the control over their movement (eg: Ted Kennedy). Lynn Stewart is being prosecuted for representing her client. Without adequate representation there is no chance of a fair trial.

Do you have a CLUE of reality?

Clearly you don't have a clue.

 

[darkboong]

And I notice no one in this forum has brought up the report that was released several days ago about Saddam's program he had going previous to the war concerning WMD.

Firstly I knew full well about Saddams pre-1990 WMD record, from what I've heard that report doesn't contain anything new.
Secondly I have discussed it on this forum many moons ago.
Thirdly it doesn't justify the invasion, occupation and destruction of an entire country of 27 million people.

The US has the biggest stockpile of WMD in the world, the US has also used Nuclear, Biological and Chemical weapons in the field during the last 51 years. No other nation comes close to that status, the history books tell us that we need to be more afraid of the US than any other nation on earth as far as WMD goes.

And where are the civil rights people speaking out against the insurgents torturing the 2 soldiers? Not a word.

I haven't noticed any of the people who oppose the war condone torture here. By contrast I've seen plenty of support for torture from the people who support the occupation of Iraq.

Further more the "civil rights people" can't really talk promote civil rights for soldiers engaged in a war / occupation. There are no civil rights for Soldiers and they are specifically exempted from the Civil Law wherever they are deployed in the world (the US insists on this, it was one of the first pieces of legislation enacted by the Vichy-style government of Iraq).

The same thing applies to US service personnel in Europe.
The same thing applied to UK service personnel in Northern Ireland (although that is no longer the case as I understand it).

You have to understand that the US Administration has effectively removed US Service Personnel from the remit of Civil Law and Civil Rights and that has been the case since time immemorial.

Liberals expose themselves for what they are.

What would that be exactly ?

And the book "Inside the Third Riech" by Speer does not show a comparision of Hitlers agenda and the US/Britain's agenda.

No one said it did. It was written in the 40s/50s/60s, so it would be impossible for Speer to draw a comparison with contemporary policy.

******'s armies had intentions of staying. The big talk now in Congress, actually 2 votes today in Congress, show that the US/Allies have intentions of a general pullout, with the Iraqi's in charge of their own country. Go back and read that book again. Look at the difference.

There is no difference. The US is building massive military bases in Iraq, there are plenty of comments from service personnel to that effect. The largest US "Mission" in the world (it's not a mere Embassy anymore) is being established in Iraq as we speak.

The mass imprisionment of males ? Tell me how the US/Allies have implemented a plan of mass imprisonment.

Falluja was a pretty big example.

You're argument that the police are practicing "Kristalnacht" against the Muslims does not tell the truth.

"Kristalnacht" wasn't just the police. It was the politicians, the people, the military and the police. The whole campaign was orchestrated to raise prejudice and suspicion to the point where physical abuse and ethnic cleansing took place. We're well on the way here in the UK, the US is on the same track. That's not to say that the rational people like you and I are going along with it (yet), but I fear it is only a matter of time. I was caught out by the Forest Gate reporting myself for example.

In the US , Muslims are a very high percentage of the terrorists arrested and convicted today.

Specific figures and sources please.

As I understand it there is a high proportion of *arrested* Muslims, but that doesn't mean that they are guility, it just means that the Police are most likely to be using Racial profiling (ie: Kristalnacht).

In the cases that I am aware of the prosecution failed to secure a conviction for terrorist activity. There was that guy who was shipped out to Saudi, as far as I am aware no convictions have been secured against the Gitmo folks (military tribunals don't count and they have been notoriously prejudicial to boot).

They are a very small percentage of the population, but are the majority of terrorists.

That is a bold claim for a man with no figures to back it up.

At the very least you should provide the following to make your case, until then you have no argument :

1) Provide a percentage of the population.
2) Provide a percentage of those charged AND convicted of terrorist offences.

I don't know of any Muslims (off-hand) that have been CONVICTED OF TERRORIST OFFENCES in the US over the last decade. The ones that come to mind are Timothy McVeigh and Earl Krugel, neither of whom were Muslim. If you can name names and provide the dates of convictions and the charges they were convicted of I would appreciate it.

Only a fool would not look at them with a more suspicious eye then say a "hispanic immigrant."

Only a fool would live in fear of people who have done him no harm. The primary difference between you and I is that I don't presume guilt on the basis of how people look or speak.

I take it back, it looks like Kristalnacht is in full swing on your street.

 

[limerickman]

I am pretty sure I've seen Mel P use it in one of her articles. She probably lifted it from Daniel Pipes et al. They really are a bunch of rancid vicious hateful xenophobic meglomaniacs. If anyone in this world needs a conviction followed by a bullet between the eyes in Iraq it's that crew.

I don't view the Daily Mail as being reflective of anything to be honest.

We know what MP is - she's a sectarian, bigotted racist.

 

[darkboong]

I don't view the Daily Mail as being reflective of anything to be honest.

OTOH it's what the world sees and it's what a fair number of like-minded vicious bigots in this country like to read. Interesting that the Government has finally decided to act against a website that promotes violence against "Liberals" and "Leftists", but only after someone got knifed in the face by a maniac who got their home address from the website. Funnily enough the government didn't bother acting for 4 years while these attacks were going on through that website despite numerous complaints from MPs.

Seems to me that Blair's government very reluctant to protect civil libertarians, gee, is the 4th Reich here yet ?

 

[Weisse Luft]

No, I doubt that it's possible. A key component of Fascism is Nationalism, the Muslim faith is multinational and multicultural by definition, argueably more so than Christianity for example.



Not entirely sure what kind of a point you are trying to make there. From the article it seems to me that raging xenophobes intent on promoting hate crime use the term. Personally I don't think it's appropriate or helpful.

Pure hogwash. Look at the nationalism between the Shiia and Sunni sects. Iran and Iraq fought a war for 8 years over it, sending children as minesweepers and gassing each other.

Now look at Sudan where Janjaweed militia target non-Arabs and non-Muslims.

 

[darkboong]

Pure hogwash. Look at the nationalism between the Shiia and Sunni sects. Iran and Iraq fought a war for 8 years over it,

Codswallop. That is revisionist twaddle.

1) Saddam Hussein is fiercely secular, his decisions appear to have been largely motivated by control of oil.
2) Saddam started the war in the first place, and to a some degree he acted as a proxy for the US in the Iran-Iraq war. Who can forget Rummy's smiling face and firm handshake with the man ?

Furthermore Saddam was not only given VX gas, but he was also given operational support including satellite intelligence by the US. The UK has grubby hands in that conflict too. For that matter the US gave Stingers
and the like to Iran as well, how quickly nationalist xenophobes forget.

sending children as minesweepers and gassing each other.

The child minesweepers thing is somewhat doubtful, although it's not without precedent. There are accounts of US marines doing just that in Vietnam, and more recently Israel's Supreme court specifically identified cases where the IDF used children as human shields for the same purpose. Certainly it was the done thing back in WWI here in Europe. The US, UK, France and Germany all have a pretty grizzly record there.

Now look at Sudan where Janjaweed militia target non-Arabs and non-Muslims.

So what ? The IDF (the military of the world's only Jewish State) target Palestinian children on picnics, I can't believe that is compatible with Judaism. Have you ever wondered why Orthodox Jews are exempted from Military service with the IDF ? Another newsflash for you : Christians kill, commit adultery and thieve from each other, despite the 10 Commandments.

Nothing you've said here makes a case for Nationalist motives being part of or even being compatible with Islam. The conflicts we are facing arise from people being people, I doubt that there is a single faith in the world that hasn't had one of it's faithful go out and fight with someone.

What I see going on is people killing each other for food, water, oil, diamonds, gold, power and money. In all probability they would still be fighting if they were Moonies or Scientologists.

Talking of which, why did the Christians who killed those folks in Haditha do it ? Was it because they were Christian ?

How about the guys who were turning back 16 year old Iraqi kids at the checkpoints around Falluja before they rolled in and murdered every last one of them ?

Wasn't it a Marine commander who claimed that killing Iraqis was "a hoot", and went on to justify it with a claim that the victims were all wife-beaters ? I didn't hear any reports of each of the victim's domestic behaviour being examined by a qualified and impartial judge, and that ****er certainly doesn't count as qualified and impartial. How can he *know* he's killing a wife-beater when he pulls the trigger ? Answer : He doesn't, he just makes excuses for his sociopathic behaviour - he has to in order to live with himself. That is the human being in action, Muslims are human beings too and I have no doubt that the buggers who go out and fly aeroplanes into skyscrapers made the same kind of ******** justification in their heads too.

Both yourself and Wolfix have repeatedly stated and implied that you view Muslims as genocidal maniacs by default. Both of you have vigorously insisted that Muslims should be treated differently to other people, and both of you have insisted that you can't communicate or coexist with Muslims, despite first hand evidence to the contrary.

You guys are talking like paranoid sociopaths. Wiesse Luft ? Nah, more
like Travis Bickle, you guys are as bad as the monsters you imagine.

 

[wolfix]

Both yourself and Wolfix have repeatedly stated and implied that you view Muslims as genocidal maniacs by default. Both of you have vigorously insisted that Muslims should be treated differently to other people, and both of you have insisted that you can't communicate or coexist with Muslims, despite first hand evidence to the contrary.

You guys are talking like paranoid sociopaths. Wiesse Luft ? Nah, more
like Travis Bickle, you guys are as bad as the monsters you imagine.

You need to point out where I called Muslims "genocidal maniacs." And you also need to point out where I declared .........."have insisted that you can't communicate or coexist with Muslims. "

That has never been stated by me. But I do believe that Muslims need to be looked at closer when entering this country. And yes, there have been Muslims convicted in this country of terrorism. It wasn't Catholic altar boys flying those planes on 9/11.
[I know they were not convicted]
And we only have to look to Canada a few weeks ago to see what is going on.
And common sense tells me that this is not all Muslims, nor even a large porportion of them.

And yes, it is hard to tella "Jihad" muslim from a man who wants to enter this country for a legitimate reason.

Because if I felt that all Muslims or their religion preached hatred , I would not have a small business relationship with 2 Muslims.
I had a relationship with a women several years ago that had 2 children that were Muslim. [I dumped her, but it wasn't for that reason. She had "jihad" for me when I wouldn't commit to her. Now, I will go on record and say she wa a "genocidal maniac." }

And if the Muslims in this country have a problem with profiling, they need to look at their brothers that have brought the attention to them. And when Americans usually refer to " genocidal maniacs" they are not refering to the Muslims that work and live in their neighborhoods, but the Muslims that are on TV decaring it's hate for America and the desire to kill Americans. Even as I write this the TV is reporting on this situation right now as a Muslim leader is declaring just this.

 

[Wurm]

Backpedaling again when confronted with a few simple facts, eh wolfux?

How do you live with your cognitive dissonance/blood mania/delusions? Here, let me guess: it's all OK as long as it helps you to make/keep more money.