The Thread about Nothing....

Discussion in 'Australia and New Zealand' started by Hitchy, Jul 28, 2006.

  1. matagi

    matagi Well-Known Member

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    Yep, the boy has talent. :p

    I hope the venue was a bit better acoustically than the pub in Petersham - could barely hear the sax there.
     


  2. bbp

    bbp Well-Known Member

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    'Real' Calois are mexican I guess, but the Motorola ones were real Merckxsxssss

    Chunky and stiff and maybe even 'dead' but I doubt slow.
    I was having a related argument with Gus last night about frame flex and wasted energy. I reckon we're all so used to and expectant of frame flex and wasted energy that we actually equate it to 'ride quality', which is a perceived notion based on a multitude of factors.
    SLX is only 40gms heavier than SL but due to the rifling at the BB is noticeably stiffer and likewise less comfortable perhaps, but we're so used to flex=comfort that we WANT to call it dull or say it doesn't dance or whatever.

    All frames are gonna flex, regardless of material used, and in Gus' defence, Sheldon agrees with his opinion that it's a nil or negligible loss of energy
    here but I'm going to disagree.
    I count at least 7 substantial 90degree changes of direction that the force you apply to a pedal has to go through before it gets to the road, and I'll be buggered if I can see how any of that force that gets turned into flex before it gets to the tyre can ever be recovered. It's gone.
    The BB may feel nice as it whips back and forth but it's obviously just absorbed some of your pedalling force, which it's not about to somehow return to the chain and magically spin it any faster as it flexes from side to side. The energy lost in BB flex is just not going to get to the road via the wheel.

    As a comparison I grabbed Ride mags numbers on the BB deflection on the Look 595 (0.58mm) versus the junk steel Masi Speciale (0.22mm)- I'll admit it's not a fair comparison because the Masi had much more flex up higher, yet a better designed steel frame could get those other numbers similar I'm sure;
    but my point is that despite the fact that we LIKE some flex, and that for normal road riding or racing for more than an hour comfort factors even encourage us to choose some flex, we're so used to BB flex being aligned with ride quality from our familiarity with the traits of oldfashioned round steel tubes that we're not being realistic about the opportunity to preserve our precious energy.
    Particularly with the opportunities to finetune and maintain the ride comfort of say a carbon fibre frame by manipulating it in other places without sacrificing stiffness where it matters in the drivetrain area, we'd be foolish to give up any opportunity to minimise BB flex.
    Sure that Masi is nearly twice the weight of the 595 and possibly less comfortable overall and worse in other areas, but I'd still be willing to have a tad more weight added for substantially more BB stiffness when I can get it. I just don't think those energy losses are anywhere near as negligible as they've been made out to be, especially comparitively now that we've moved on from all very similar round tubed frames only.

    Hmm that's a very longwinded way of saying that despite never having owned a classic Columbus steel bike, I'd like SLX tubes on it rather than SL if I did.
     
  3. Ms_Merida

    Ms_Merida New Member

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    I realise this! Why are you telling me again? Do I need to be more gender specific when making postings, make more of a point that there's another lady in the forum?! Shall I get a big neon sign? :p

    Looking at 8-12 weeks. I know there's a rather large gap there.. Thinking bout hanging here til end of financial year. Give me more time with my nephews...

    LOL.. nasty! I'm not moving to the cross!!! :rolleyes:
     
  4. Thylacine

    Thylacine Member

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    Fark me. You play the Sax and are debating the relative merits of tubing that ceased production 30 years ago. What is this, 1984? :p

    The problem is with 'flex' is that there are too many assumptions, and no facts.

    Take your cited example - BB deflection on the Look 595 (0.58mm) versus the junk steel Masi Speciale (0.22mm).

    This is the issue I'm going to have with our upcoming RIDE mag 'test'. What does that deflection actually mean, not only in isolation, but also in the context of the entire machine? Nobody knows! Everyone just Flintstones' - "Flex bad. Big number worse than little number. Me not buy, me buy bike with little number" but NOBODY can equate a power loss to deflection. No studies have been done that I know of, everyone just makes grand assumptions based on, well, nothing.

    And then there's the question of the system. Where are the real power losses actually coming from WITHIN THE ENTIRE SYSTEM? Intuitively, my gut tells me that there are much greater inefficiencies within the system than the energy it took to felect the frame 0.2 of a millimetre. Number one of course being the rider, but there's also the entire drive system to think of, amongst a myriad of other things.

    And we haven't even gone into aerodynamics. Stick your hands on the drops and you get an instant 2-3kph speed increase with the same effort. How much speed or energy loss is 0.2mm of BB defection really worth, in the grand scheme of things?

    'Statistically Irrelevant' is what I think.

    Oh yeah, this RIDE review is going to be a whole bunch of fun. Should I tell them where to stick their deflection test? :confused::eek:
     
  5. Albert 50

    Albert 50 New Member

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    William St, next door to Panther. Not flash but cheap enough :p
    It is a pain in the arse for events that don't start & finish at the same spot :(
     
  6. matagi

    matagi Well-Known Member

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    I think he thought you didn't know - then again, maybe all those late nights at work are affecting his brain and he's forgotten he already told you. ;)

    BTW, when I first started hanging out with this lot, they thought I was a guy. :rolleyes: Although, to be fair, none of my early posts gave any clues I was female, plus I'm into cars and vaguely know my way around an engine bay, so I guess they couldn't be blamed for their assumption. :p
     
  7. badsac

    badsac New Member

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    How posh! :p I was hoping you weren't staying upstairs at the knickerbocker. That's where we're having our presso. You wouldn't get any sleep if you were. ;)

    True that. You could always just ride to Blayney that morning. Only 30 odd k's. A nice warm up. :)
     
  8. Ms_Merida

    Ms_Merida New Member

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    Woo.. another one ;) [car chick that is]
    I used to be right into cars - my sister, her husband, his mum and all their friends are drag racers. However these day i'm more of a music lover and all the alternative stuff [natural shite]
    but still turn a head or two when i see a nice beast... vvrrrooom!! :D
     
  9. Gusboh

    Gusboh New Member

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    ma's hit it on the head.

    But my forgetting is more to do with alcohol consumption than long hours. :)
     
  10. Ms_Merida

    Ms_Merida New Member

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    So gus.. tell me.. where are all good watering holes down there?
    Up here I dont drink etc.. but down there it's a different story :rolleyes:
     
  11. Gusboh

    Gusboh New Member

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    Well... I think you've just opened up the proverbial can of worms luv.

    The pub at watson's bay is pretty damn good. The Australian at the rocks has a whole bunch of beers on tap. The Lord Nelson, also at the rocks, brews their own. In fact, most of the rocks is good, if i a little expensive.
    I like a restaurant that i took some of these guys to last year called Doma's, which is in the cross. Czech food and beer.

    Beebs would know more of the pubs in the city than me though, i'm too poor/tightarsed to drink out too often. :)
     
  12. classic1

    classic1 Well-Known Member

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    What Thylo said. All the Ride test proves is how much your bottom bracket deflects when you chuck a 40kg weight on it. Thats it. Its not real world. What does it mean? Very little if you get your vernier calipers out and actually work out what 0.2mm actually is. Ride do not measure how stiff the frame is overall. Your biggest amount of flex is through the length of the bike, from the headtube to the rear ends. How much torsional flex do you get there? How stiff are the chainstays? If you ask me they aren't measuring anything worthwhile. I'm not bagging the whole magazine because its generally a good read, but I take the whole bike test flex thing with a big grain of salt. IMO flex counts for neglible performance difference unless the bike is so flexible its causing derailleur or brake rub or if you are a track sprinter. Sean Kelly used to win 30 times a year on the flexiest bike in the peloton. Nuff said.
     
  13. Thylacine

    Thylacine Member

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    I guess at the end of the day I should just let them do their silly test and not get my panties in a bunch about it. Realistically, there's so much brand loyalty in the road scene, nobody is going to care which frame deflects a fraction of a millimetre more - they're going to buy the brand they want anyway.

    Although I do think I can hear Hitchy ebaying his Look as we speak :rolleyes:
     
  14. Hitchy

    Hitchy New Member

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    ....with or without the 'happy ending'? :D
     
  15. Hitchy

    Hitchy New Member

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    ....hmmm, when I break the next one & you can get a 'tigger special' within 500gms of the 595...we'll talk....'specially cos weight is so very important to me, I need all the help I can get! :D
     
  16. matagi

    matagi Well-Known Member

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    You back on the soup again, then? :p ;) :D
     
  17. Thylacine

    Thylacine Member

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    Within 500g? C'mon! At least give me a challenge! :cool::p
     
  18. Hitchy

    Hitchy New Member

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    No.....that's the problem! :D...well that & 2 weeks in Surfers....but at least I did plenty of bicep curls...unfortunately they were 7oz at a time :D
     
  19. Hitchy

    Hitchy New Member

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    .....numbers, man...numbers...been 12 mths since I had a new bike.....I can feel the urge coming on again!
     
  20. matagi

    matagi Well-Known Member

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    Nah, that's just your prostate! :D :D
     
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