The tragedy of this forum



fiscem4

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Sep 15, 2004
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I think that it is a sad state of affairs when a new forum has to be created to discuss doping.

What is happening to our sport?

I remember back in the day going out with my training partner on a sunday and getting lost for 8 hours on back roads, me dragging his tired a$$ up hills all day and then pushing 50mph on the downhills. I remember long rides with my college team in those nasty downpours that I've only seen in NC. I remember how racing was about pushing yourself to the limit and suffering for your team, not winning at any cost. That was hardcore.

A sad state of affairs indeed...
 
Where's that great quote about the 2 Frenchmen (brothers?) putting coke in their eyes, and dancing around in their rooms all night?

I prefer my Cat 3/4 races on Wednesday nights; the worst thing I've seen is a *CAN* of coke...
 
Life is life. Reality, fantasy, highs and lows. No tragedy in writing about 'how the sausages are made'. Not at all. Such disclosures are helpful even to those still in denial, so at least to confirm their shinking fraternity.

It's life.

It's the human condition.

Cycling racers have been doping for over 140 years! The drugs are just more effective today. In another 100 years---the TDF will carry a speed average of 60 kph+. The only thing that 'happened' was journalists finally began writing about this problem on a weekly basis. It's not hard to do as there is daily activity.

If you think doping in procycling is a fraud---or a disgrace--or sad---just think of Wall Street, The New York Stock Exchange, Juiced accounting for Worldcom, Tyco, Enron, Healthsouth, etc.....

Accounting on Steroids!!!!!

Nobody died(?)--but billions of Dollars were funneled to insiders who will NEVER refund the money.

Just as Johan Museeuw, Richard Virenque, Alex Zulle, Tyler Hamilton or David Millar will NEVER refund any of their juiced driven prize money. Not ever.

The mantra reads: 'Steal all you can--until somebody puts you in a can', as it were.

As long as sport is commercially exploited for corporate advertising---the athletes, the coaches, the managers, the drug researchers, the doctors, will cheat in every way conceivable. Crime pays!

Pro Cycling is not a Corinthean sport---rather it is a greedy, aggressive business! Lying & denial keep it fully funded as an industry.

And what about the doping our cattle, our dairy cows, our chickens, lambs, race horses and dogs? Is that not a subject worth debating too? I mean, non-vegans do eat that suff and those synthetic hormones pass down the food chain too. Is that healthy? Is that fact well disclosed to consumers?




fiscem4 said:
I think that it is a sad state of affairs when a new forum has to be created to discuss doping.

What is happening to our sport?

I remember back in the day going out with my training partner on a sunday and getting lost for 8 hours on back roads, me dragging his tired a$$ up hills all day and then pushing 50mph on the downhills. I remember long rides with my college team in those nasty downpours that I've only seen in NC. I remember how racing was about pushing yourself to the limit and suffering for your team, not winning at any cost. That was hardcore.

A sad state of affairs indeed...
 
It's also about who cares and who doesn't..........It's a problem oke......but constantly talking about it doesn't change a thing. In light of recent doping problems cycling does have a problem, but so does every sport! I rather talk about racing then endless debating who is or who isn't doping (then again everyone is doping in youre view). Do you have an opinion about the giro and the racing side of it or are you constantly thinking what are they on? or how can this be possible?

Btw a doping forum is nothing new; other cycling forums have it to......now you don't get doping threads at a road racing forum were you think there is only going to be talked about racing!
Flyer said:
Life is life. Reality, fantasy, highs and lows. No tragedy in writing about 'how the sausages are made'. Not at all. Such disclosures are helpful even to those still in denial, so at least to confirm their shinking fraternity.


It's life.

It's the human condition.

Cycling racers have been doping for over 140 years! The drugs are just more effective today. In another 100 years---the TDF will carry a speed average of 60 kph+. The only thing that 'happened' was journalists finally began writing about this problem on a weekly basis. It's not hard to do as there is daily activity.

If you think doping in procycling is a fraud---or a disgrace--or sad---just think of Wall Street, The New York Stock Exchange, Juiced accounting for Worldcom, Tyco, Enron, Healthsouth, etc.....

Accounting on Steroids!!!!!

Nobody died(?)--but billions of Dollars were funneled to insiders who will NEVER refund the money.

Just as Johan Museeuw, Richard Virenque, Alex Zulle, Tyler Hamilton or David Millar will NEVER refund any of their juiced driven prize money. Not ever.

The mantra reads: 'Steal all you can--until somebody puts you in a can', as it were.

As long as sport is commercially exploited for corporate advertising---the athletes, the coaches, the managers, the drug researchers, the doctors, will cheat in every way conceivable. Crime pays!

Pro Cycling is not a Corinthean sport---rather it is a greedy, aggressive business! Lying & denial keep it fully funded as an industry.

And what about the doping our cattle, our dairy cows, our chickens, lambs, race horses and dogs? Is that not a subject worth debating too? I mean, non-vegans do eat that suff and those synthetic hormones pass down the food chain too. Is that healthy? Is that fact well disclosed to consumers?
 
fiscem4 said:
I think that it is a sad state of affairs when a new forum has to be created to discuss doping.
If it helps to stop other sections getting hijacked by this topic, then its worth having ;)
 
Much like the Holocaust, ignorance is blissful and deadly too.

On the contrry not discussing the issue is akin to a tacit approval for doping in all sport. Especially cycling.

Doping is not a 'little or isolated toxic problem'. It is widespread and affects all levels of elite cycling. The top athletes, men and women, as well as the domestiques and workers.

Hero worship of cycling feats---otherwise impossible to achieve without fancy corrupted doctors, scientists, pharmaceutical firms, and corrupt corporate advertisers, is a excellent way to show you apathy.

Those who care, speak out. Those that prefer ignorance and commercial bliss, (staus quo) want whistleblowers discredited and doping formums to be censured.

Silence is a greater sin than is the doping.





MJtje said:
It's also about who cares and who doesn't..........It's a problem oke......but constantly talking about it doesn't change a thing. In light of recent doping problems cycling does have a problem, but so does every sport! I rather talk about racing then endless debating who is or who isn't doping (then again everyone is doping in youre view). Do you have an opinion about the giro and the racing side of it or are you constantly thinking what are they on? or how can this be possible?

Btw a doping forum is nothing new; other cycling forums have it to......now you don't get doping threads at a road racing forum were you think there is only going to be talked about racing!
 
Still my guestion: Do you have an opinion about the giro and the racing side of it or are you constantly thinking what are they on? or how can this be possible?


Flyer said:
Much like the Holocaust, ignorance is blissful and deadly too.

On the contrry not discussing the issue is akin to a tacit approval for doping in all sport. Especially cycling.

Doping is not a 'little or isolated toxic problem'. It is widespread and affects all levels of elite cycling. The top athletes, men and women, as well as the domestiques and workers.

Hero worship of cycling feats---otherwise impossible to achieve without fancy corrupted doctors, scientists, pharmaceutical firms, and corrupt corporate advertisers, is a excellent way to show you apathy.

Those who care, speak out. Those that prefer ignorance and commercial bliss, (staus quo) want whistleblowers discredited and doping formums to be censured.

Silence is a greater sin than is the doping.
 
The same thoughts I had when Marion Jones and her/boyfriend, unmarried father of her child, Tim Montgomery both got smoked two weeks ago at a California track meet.

I wondered how their doping program were altered.

Doping affected them dramatically.




MJtje said:
Still my guestion: Do you have an opinion about the giro and the racing side of it or are you constantly thinking what are they on? or how can this be possible?
 
Flyer said:
The same thoughts I had when Marion Jones and her/boyfriend, unmarried father of her child, Tim Montgomery both got smoked two weeks ago at a California track meet.

I wondered how their doping program were altered.

Doping affected them dramatically.
In other words you don't actually like the sport of cycling or, based on your posts, any sport, you just love the doping.
 
I love the lying, cheating and denial of the doping. It illustrates my points so well. It validates that widespread doping practices are still very much in play. Last week, it was House boy Luca De Angeli who went EPO positive and was exposed. Who will be next?

And the dopes, such as House who represent the doping problem for for what it is:

Clinical denial and commercial fraud dressed up as sporting fancy.

House is a loser, but our new forum is a WINNER!





House said:
In other words you don't actually like the sport of cycling or, based on your posts, any sport, you just love the doping.
 
Flyer said:
I love the lying, cheating and denial of the doping. It illustrates my points so well. It validates that widespread doping practices are still very much in play. Last week, it was House boy Luca De Angeli who went EPO positive and was exposed. Who will be next?

And the dopes, such as House who represent the doping problem for for what it is:

Clinical denial and commercial fraud dressed up as sporting fancy.

House is a loser, but our new forum is a WINNER!





House said:
In other words you don't actually like the sport of cycling or, based on your posts, any sport, you just love the doping.
Ready to prve you aren't a coward yet? Those challenges still stand. You live for doping, you love doping you embrace it. You take joy in it. That's why your life revolves around it. I'd say the loser is the guy who spends all of his time trying to convince people that the sport they love is 100% using lies, half-truths and tenuous at best connections.

Step up coward.
 
This forum is terrific because it allows intelligent folks to share ideas about the topics posted.

Performance in elite cycling is based upon many elements: diet, work ethic, talent, motivation, equipment, logistical & financial support, coaching, role on a team, and doping.

The doping is an important part. It may be the most important part--because as our top athletes have proven, they may swith teams, coaches, bikes, and components, BUT NEVER do they cease doping.

Unfortunately, the forums also brings out creeps who desperately want to change the subject from cycling and/or doping to a personal feud, with lots of ad hominem personal rants.

These incredible posters do not contribute anything to the discussion, nor do they change the facts.

Doping is a serious problem. Lance Armstrong & Michele Ferrari are a huge part of that problem. Marco Pantani went to his grave as a results of doping.

The top cyclists in our sport are sick and dying at an alarming rate. (Jeminez, Sermon, Vermaut, Pauwels, Zinoviev, Salanson, Zanetti, Rusconi, Zanoli, Ceriani, Claveyrolat, Meyer, de Walle, Oosterbosch, Halupczok, Haghedooren, Meijer, Lopez-Carril, Knetemann.

Armstrong will eventually change his tune---mark my words. The sooner he is away from compettion, the sooner the truth can be told---without a more attorneys fees being generated. He may write a real book, the next time w/o Sally Jenkins.

The cows will come out of the barn, then.
 
fiscem4 said:
I think that it is a sad state of affairs when a new forum has to be created to discuss doping.

What is happening to our sport?

I remember back in the day going out with my training partner on a sunday and getting lost for 8 hours on back roads, me dragging his tired a$$ up hills all day and then pushing 50mph on the downhills. I remember long rides with my college team in those nasty downpours that I've only seen in NC. I remember how racing was about pushing yourself to the limit and suffering for your team, not winning at any cost. That was hardcore.

A sad state of affairs indeed...
After reading a bunch of posts in this forum and others about doping, and seeing all the reports in the news about doping, etc. I am also in agreement with Flyer - it does seem to be a sad state of affairs.

But I have to wonder, how much of this information that people post should we really buy into? I'm not saying that doping isn't happening, but there's talk of nearly EVERY pro in the peloton taking something to enhance performance. However, with all the cover ups going on and all the other "inside info" that none of us could possibly be aware of, how reliable is the information posted in forums? I'm sure that there is a ton of speculation from amateur riders and posters in here - some of it more believable than other info.

I'd love to hear from a team doctor, coach, or someone who actually participated hands-on with the doping, but that's probably never going to happen (except for the few occurances were athletes write articles about doping after they get out of it). Just someone who has been right there injecting a cyclist...I would be more awestruck by reading that post as opposed to someone who has only read a lot of articles and puts together his/her best guess.

I'm probably still being nieve about this and hoping that not everyone in the pro peloton is doping, hoping that it's just a select few riders, but it's probably not, and I'm probably very very wrong. lol. :p
 
fiscem4 said:
I think that it is a sad state of affairs when a new forum has to be created to discuss doping.

What is happening to our sport?

I remember back in the day going out with my training partner on a sunday and getting lost for 8 hours on back roads, me dragging his tired a$$ up hills all day and then pushing 50mph on the downhills. I remember long rides with my college team in those nasty downpours that I've only seen in NC. I remember how racing was about pushing yourself to the limit and suffering for your team, not winning at any cost. That was hardcore.

A sad state of affairs indeed...

It give me something to avoid.Like a pothole inthe road.
 
The forum is not a tragedy, the chemical dependence of athletes is. This forum is a breath of fresh air after all the propaganda and hero worship that wastes many a posters time.

The chance of a research scientist working for Amgen, Genentech or Fibrogen typing non-clinical drug protocols onto this site is ZERO.

And that is what we truly require for a 2005 TDF preview. That's what will win the Tour in July.

Insofar as the volume of drug abuse---we already have confirmation of that. It's enormous.

100%, that's my estimate at the highest level of sport. But even if you allow for a first year pro to ease into the business, 95% is still closer to 100% than is 5-10%.

It ain't a few bad apples.

Look at the lack of outrage. Look at how whole teams are constructed around proven drug users.

Zulle, Camenzend, Hamilton, Perez (Phonak)
Vandenbrocke, Vasseur, Millar, Gaumont, (Cofidis)
Museeuw, Vandenbrocke (Qick Step)
Zulle, Virenque, Herve, Brouchard (Festina)

Basically all teams have dopers on them. And how could morale be kept up unless doping were accepted and EXPECTED.

When riders are caught----no outrage from the peloton is heard. Just the reverse.

Whistleblowers are discredited and blackballed.

Long live forums on Doping!!



Orange Fish said:
After reading a bunch of posts in this forum and others about doping, and seeing all the reports in the news about doping, etc. I am also in agreement with Flyer - it does seem to be a sad state of affairs.

But I have to wonder, how much of this information that people post should we really buy into? I'm not saying that doping isn't happening, but there's talk of nearly EVERY pro in the peloton taking something to enhance performance. However, with all the cover ups going on and all the other "inside info" that none of us could possibly be aware of, how reliable is the information posted in forums? I'm sure that there is a ton of speculation from amateur riders and posters in here - some of it more believable than other info.

I'd love to hear from a team doctor, coach, or someone who actually participated hands-on with the doping, but that's probably never going to happen (except for the few occurances were athletes write articles about doping after they get out of it). Just someone who has been right there injecting a cyclist...I would be more awestruck by reading that post as opposed to someone who has only read a lot of articles and puts together his/her best guess.

I'm probably still being nieve about this and hoping that not everyone in the pro peloton is doping, hoping that it's just a select few riders, but it's probably not, and I'm probably very very wrong. lol. :p
 
excuse me, but if we're going to talk about doping let's talk about the widespread doping of the american public (via a steady diet of fox news, fast food, pain killers, and anti-depressants).
i think what is happening in the sport of cycling reflects to a large extent what is valued in society at large.
would i dope if i were a professional cyclist? well, if it meant keeping up with the jones', and everyone else was doing it, i probably would.
cycling is a culture like any other and those in it try to fit in and do what they need to do to survive.
what if ibubrofen were considered dope--how many if us would be considered addicts?



Orange Fish said:
After reading a bunch of posts in this forum and others about doping, and seeing all the reports in the news about doping, etc. I am also in agreement with Flyer - it does seem to be a sad state of affairs.

But I have to wonder, how much of this information that people post should we really buy into? I'm not saying that doping isn't happening, but there's talk of nearly EVERY pro in the peloton taking something to enhance performance. However, with all the cover ups going on and all the other "inside info" that none of us could possibly be aware of, how reliable is the information posted in forums? I'm sure that there is a ton of speculation from amateur riders and posters in here - some of it more believable than other info.

I'd love to hear from a team doctor, coach, or someone who actually participated hands-on with the doping, but that's probably never going to happen (except for the few occurances were athletes write articles about doping after they get out of it). Just someone who has been right there injecting a cyclist...I would be more awestruck by reading that post as opposed to someone who has only read a lot of articles and puts together his/her best guess.

I'm probably still being nieve about this and hoping that not everyone in the pro peloton is doping, hoping that it's just a select few riders, but it's probably not, and I'm probably very very wrong. lol. :p
 
I agree with you 100% and wholeheartedly. You speak volumes about the underlying nature of the doping environment.

An environment whereby pills and injections are referred to as 'medicine' or 'good for you' whether this is true or not.

Physicians have been backed into a corner by today's business of medicine; drugs or surgery or both.

Physician have no other tools at their disposal, mostly the power of prescribing drugs. It simplifies the medical business and makes the Pharmaceutical firms sales grow at a steady pace.

Today's people are in a hurry----demand fast results and are not interested in healthy diet, exercise or rest.

We are a caffeine driven, adrenalin fed culture.

I had to LOL when I read what Carlos Sestre (Team CSC) said to a ProCycling journalist (June 2005 issue) when asked about doping;

'We are all working longer hours, resting less and becoming more tense. And all this leads me to ask myself: Is doping the only thing we should be fighting against?' "But isn't stress also a serious problem we should be battling against?"

Your words sound identical to Carlos Sestre.

Of course you are both right----and yet at the same time very cleverly changing the subject from the original discussion.

Is Pantani's death just another example of how toxic doping has become in cycling today?

Does not doping and overdosing add stress too?

Is not working for living stressfull? Are drugs essential to modern life?

Let's keep our eyes on the doping the ball. Plenty of advertisers want us to forget about yesterday's news and just enjoy drugged athletes and the themes of grandeur.

This post is interested in Pantani's doping and Armstrong's medical program with Ferrari as well.



panamagrl said:
excuse me, but if we're going to talk about doping let's talk about the widespread doping of the american public (via a steady diet of fox news, fast food, pain killers, and anti-depressants).
i think what is happening in the sport of cycling reflects to a large extent what is valued in society at large.
would i dope if i were a professional cyclist? well, if it meant keeping up with the jones', and everyone else was doing it, i probably would.
cycling is a culture like any other and those in it try to fit in and do what they need to do to survive.
what if ibubrofen were considered dope--how many if us would be considered addicts?
 
Wow, all great comments from you guys. It's just hard to believe that so much doping is going on, but I can definitely see how it can stem from the way Americans lead their lives in general - everything quick and easy. I guess we shouldn't expect pros (just because they are professionals) to be any different. It's always nice to have some top athletes to look up to, but when they're just as bad as everyone else, seems to take that credibility away.

Interesting point about how teams are built around dopers. Never thought about it like that before.
 
When it comes to international competition Amercia certainly has advantages with Amgen, Genentech, Chiron and hundreds of lesser bio-technology firms researching and creating new and potent drugs. Pfizer, Merck, Johnson & Johnson, Bayer, Bristol-Meyers Squib help distribute drugs once they clear FDA approval.

Amgen, Inc. of Thousand Oaks California has effected cycling more than any other drug company. Their products for anemia and chemo therapy recovery have become a standard for training and conditioning for stage racing. Amgen products such as EPOGEN,
NEUPOGEN G-CSF, ENBREL, INFERGEN, ENBREL, SENSIPAR (cinacalcet HCI) and finally Johan Museeuw's favorite, AraNESP (darbepoetin alfa)---bascially, Epogen plus carbohydrates--these all have theapuetic uses in endurance athletes.

Cycling uses all manner of drug products---those available with a prescription or TUE, black market, and pure research dope, not otherwise available unless you agree to pre-trial research experiments or have a fancy Italian doctor whose infamy helps with access.

But it was the Germans and the Nazi Party who put synthetic hormones to work in 1933.

The entire globe embraces doping and genetic doping is upon us already.

Talk about undetectable.

Look for athletic records to continue to fall----such as today's mens 100 meter sprint at 9.4 seconds.

Faster, stronger, quicker is the direction we are going. Also, sicker and more bi-polar too.

Pantani, Claveyrolat, Jeminez depressions leading to death will not be the only ones this decade.

The more the public understands the underlying nature of the 'black box' which is commercial sport, the easier it is to see the truth.

The tragedy is the deception and fraud of the sponsors combined with the deadly health trouble the riders suffer as modern medical gladiators.



Orange Fish said:
Wow, all great comments from you guys. It's just hard to believe that so much doping is going on, but I can definitely see how it can stem from the way Americans lead their lives in general - everything quick and easy. I guess we shouldn't expect pros (just because they are professionals) to be any different. It's always nice to have some top athletes to look up to, but when they're just as bad as everyone else, seems to take that credibility away.

Interesting point about how teams are built around dopers. Never thought about it like that before.
 

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