T
Toby Joe
Guest
From: "Jan" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 3:53 PM
Subject: Re: MHA Survey: Please complete
> >From: Toby Joe [email protected] Date: 3/23/2004
> >2:14 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id:
> ><[email protected]>
> >
> >[email protected] (Jan) wrote:
> >> >From: Toby Joe [email protected]
> >> >[email protected] (MHA Needs More Skeptics)
> >> >wrote:
> >>> >> Mark, I think that is the lamest attempt at an
> >>> >> answer to a serious
> >> >> question here. If you truly believe that calling
> >> >> someone an
> >> >> religious bigotry, you need your head examined.
> >> >
> >> >I agree, in particular when it goes so far as to find
> >> >expression in posting lists of names of posters
> >> >according to their perceived ethnic background or
> >> >religious beliefs, together with the statement that
> >> >they are "liars" and are led by $#T#n, and also when
> >> >there have been actions taken which have impact in the
> >> >offline lives of some of those people (eg contacting
> >> >employers).
> >> >
> >> >The result has been to create an environment in which
> >> >it is very difficult to even begin a discussion, as
> >> >the context is always one of suspicion, hostility,
> >> >defensiveness, divisiveness, misinterpretations, and
> >> >categorisation due to religious beliefs.
> >> >
> >> >Anything posted to MHA is screened and categorised
> >> >according to perceived "wrong" religious beliefs, and
> >> >those who hold such wrong beliefs are subjected to
> >> >harrassment, such as having their names posted on the
> >> >"List of Liars, Jews and Atheists". When prejudice and
> >> >intolerance permeate a discussion group to that
> >> >extent, sane, objective discussion is near-impossible.
> >>
> >> Being truthful means speaking the truth and also saying
> >> things that reflect reality. Being truthful is one of
> >> the necessities of a human society, one of the virtues
> >> of human behaviour, and brings great benefits, whilst
> >> lying is one of the major elements of corruption in
> >> human society, and the cause of the destruction of
> >> social structure and ties, one of the most evil
> >> features of bad conduct, and causes widespread harm.
> >
> >The poster is presenting
>
> You were replying the biggest liar on MHA
If you say so. I was replying to a post by
[email protected], and here is what you snipped:
> The poster is presenting those words as if they are her
> own, as if she herself has thought things through, arrived
> at that conclusion, and formed and expressed those
> thoughts in that exact way. If that is so, and if what she
> has posted is truly her own unique wording, then the post
> is worthy of consideration.
My words were for all readers. When you take the words of
others and present them as your own, that is dishonest. It
also derails discussions while people try to sort out who
wrote what.
It is also a legal issue:
www.rmit.edu.au/browse?SIMID=y3h8ez6xsu7s&STATUS=A Right
Against False Attribution: "As the title suggests this right
covers an author against false _or no attribution_. This
right can be aligned to passing off a work as ones own."
(emphasis added)
> who has a filthy mouth and it a trouble maker.
Attempt to divert from topic by attacking another
poster is noted.
When you generalise from one or two to an entire group, I
may well speak out and call it as I see it.
> Lies are rampant here.
Then stop. Stop misrepresenting others.
> >The result has been to create an environment in which it
> >is very
> >> >difficult to even begin a discussion, as the context
> >> >is always one of suspicion, hostility, defensiveness,
> >> >divisiveness, misinterpretations,
>
> Coming from the *gang*
Here are the paragraphs again, as the meaning was altered in
snipping: "The result has been to create an environment in
which it is very difficult to even begin a discussion, as
the context is always one of suspicion, hostility,
defensiveness, divisiveness, misinterpretations, and
categorisation due to religious beliefs."
"...categorisation due to religious beliefs" was essential
to the intended meaning of that paragraph.
I then wrote: "Anything posted to MHA is screened and
categorised according to perceived "wrong" religious
beliefs, and those who hold such wrong beliefs are subjected
to harrassment, such as having their names posted on the
"List of Liars, Jews and Atheists". When prejudice and
intolerance permeate a discussion group to that extent,
sane, objective discussion is near-impossible."
All of the above still stands.
> As proven.
>
> I call lies when I see them, just as you did with Peter
> Bowditch, and rightfully so.
I am calling you on both your misrepresentations and your
attempts to vilify groups of people according to their
religious beliefs or their ethnic backgrounds.
> I will continue to call the lies that come from the
> *gang*,
And I will continue to call your use of words to enact
prejudice.
> you needn't go into a rant because I see fit to call them.
I call it as I see it. You can call who you like, but you
are not exempt.
> The facts are that the majority of lies told here come
> from the Jews and atheists.
>
> Filled with hate.
Those are _your_ projections, your creations.
You have played, and continue to play, an active role in
creating mistrust, animosity and divisiveness according to
religous beliefs or ethnic origin. You attempt to justify
that according to your own personal vendettas, all the while
denying your own role in all that has happened.
> Jan
>
> I have come to the conclusion that lying is normal in
> 1998. Because the majority finds it to some degree
> acceptable, they will allow themselves to be persuaded by
> liars. The catch is, you can lie, but if someone who is
> opposed to your position, or with the power to broadcast
> to the world, can find out you're lying you risk exposure
> and humiliation.
>
> $#t#n causes people to lie whenever he can.
"$$#T#n caused me do it" does not wash with me. Your
misrepresentations are your own.
--
"I happen to think that the singular evil of our time is
prejudice. It is from this evil that all other evils grow
and multiply." R. Serling
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 3:53 PM
Subject: Re: MHA Survey: Please complete
> >From: Toby Joe [email protected] Date: 3/23/2004
> >2:14 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id:
> ><[email protected]>
> >
> >[email protected] (Jan) wrote:
> >> >From: Toby Joe [email protected]
> >> >[email protected] (MHA Needs More Skeptics)
> >> >wrote:
> >>> >> Mark, I think that is the lamest attempt at an
> >>> >> answer to a serious
> >> >> question here. If you truly believe that calling
> >> >> someone an
> >> >> religious bigotry, you need your head examined.
> >> >
> >> >I agree, in particular when it goes so far as to find
> >> >expression in posting lists of names of posters
> >> >according to their perceived ethnic background or
> >> >religious beliefs, together with the statement that
> >> >they are "liars" and are led by $#T#n, and also when
> >> >there have been actions taken which have impact in the
> >> >offline lives of some of those people (eg contacting
> >> >employers).
> >> >
> >> >The result has been to create an environment in which
> >> >it is very difficult to even begin a discussion, as
> >> >the context is always one of suspicion, hostility,
> >> >defensiveness, divisiveness, misinterpretations, and
> >> >categorisation due to religious beliefs.
> >> >
> >> >Anything posted to MHA is screened and categorised
> >> >according to perceived "wrong" religious beliefs, and
> >> >those who hold such wrong beliefs are subjected to
> >> >harrassment, such as having their names posted on the
> >> >"List of Liars, Jews and Atheists". When prejudice and
> >> >intolerance permeate a discussion group to that
> >> >extent, sane, objective discussion is near-impossible.
> >>
> >> Being truthful means speaking the truth and also saying
> >> things that reflect reality. Being truthful is one of
> >> the necessities of a human society, one of the virtues
> >> of human behaviour, and brings great benefits, whilst
> >> lying is one of the major elements of corruption in
> >> human society, and the cause of the destruction of
> >> social structure and ties, one of the most evil
> >> features of bad conduct, and causes widespread harm.
> >
> >The poster is presenting
>
> You were replying the biggest liar on MHA
If you say so. I was replying to a post by
[email protected], and here is what you snipped:
> The poster is presenting those words as if they are her
> own, as if she herself has thought things through, arrived
> at that conclusion, and formed and expressed those
> thoughts in that exact way. If that is so, and if what she
> has posted is truly her own unique wording, then the post
> is worthy of consideration.
My words were for all readers. When you take the words of
others and present them as your own, that is dishonest. It
also derails discussions while people try to sort out who
wrote what.
It is also a legal issue:
www.rmit.edu.au/browse?SIMID=y3h8ez6xsu7s&STATUS=A Right
Against False Attribution: "As the title suggests this right
covers an author against false _or no attribution_. This
right can be aligned to passing off a work as ones own."
(emphasis added)
> who has a filthy mouth and it a trouble maker.
Attempt to divert from topic by attacking another
poster is noted.
When you generalise from one or two to an entire group, I
may well speak out and call it as I see it.
> Lies are rampant here.
Then stop. Stop misrepresenting others.
> >The result has been to create an environment in which it
> >is very
> >> >difficult to even begin a discussion, as the context
> >> >is always one of suspicion, hostility, defensiveness,
> >> >divisiveness, misinterpretations,
>
> Coming from the *gang*
Here are the paragraphs again, as the meaning was altered in
snipping: "The result has been to create an environment in
which it is very difficult to even begin a discussion, as
the context is always one of suspicion, hostility,
defensiveness, divisiveness, misinterpretations, and
categorisation due to religious beliefs."
"...categorisation due to religious beliefs" was essential
to the intended meaning of that paragraph.
I then wrote: "Anything posted to MHA is screened and
categorised according to perceived "wrong" religious
beliefs, and those who hold such wrong beliefs are subjected
to harrassment, such as having their names posted on the
"List of Liars, Jews and Atheists". When prejudice and
intolerance permeate a discussion group to that extent,
sane, objective discussion is near-impossible."
All of the above still stands.
> As proven.
>
> I call lies when I see them, just as you did with Peter
> Bowditch, and rightfully so.
I am calling you on both your misrepresentations and your
attempts to vilify groups of people according to their
religious beliefs or their ethnic backgrounds.
> I will continue to call the lies that come from the
> *gang*,
And I will continue to call your use of words to enact
prejudice.
> you needn't go into a rant because I see fit to call them.
I call it as I see it. You can call who you like, but you
are not exempt.
> The facts are that the majority of lies told here come
> from the Jews and atheists.
>
> Filled with hate.
Those are _your_ projections, your creations.
You have played, and continue to play, an active role in
creating mistrust, animosity and divisiveness according to
religous beliefs or ethnic origin. You attempt to justify
that according to your own personal vendettas, all the while
denying your own role in all that has happened.
> Jan
>
> I have come to the conclusion that lying is normal in
> 1998. Because the majority finds it to some degree
> acceptable, they will allow themselves to be persuaded by
> liars. The catch is, you can lie, but if someone who is
> opposed to your position, or with the power to broadcast
> to the world, can find out you're lying you risk exposure
> and humiliation.
>
> $#t#n causes people to lie whenever he can.
"$$#T#n caused me do it" does not wash with me. Your
misrepresentations are your own.
--
"I happen to think that the singular evil of our time is
prejudice. It is from this evil that all other evils grow
and multiply." R. Serling
