This is what I call cross training

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Greg Hall, Jan 23, 2003.

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  1. Greg Hall

    Greg Hall Guest

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  2. Armstrong

    Armstrong Guest

    "Sharon Peters" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > >Subject: This is what I call cross training From: [email protected] (Greg Hall)
    >
    > >http://www.txbra.org/featuredPhoto/featuredPhoto.asp
    > >
    > >Wonder if he'll ever try his hand at 6-day racing?
    >
    > I'd venture to say that he'd do better than Marty.... But while it is nice to see him racing cross
    > on a cross bike, what the
    fuck is
    > up with that number placement? That's the most retarded thing I've seen
    all
    > day. Except for that picture of Eunich that keeps popping up
    everywhere.....
    >
    Better than Marty!!?? are you out of your mind. You have never seen a Six day have you.

    Tom A.
     
  3. G.T.

    G.T. Guest

    Tom Kunich wrote:
    > "Ronald" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:<[email protected]>...
    >
    >>"Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>news:[email protected]...
    >>
    >>>It looks like one of those wide open 3 meter wide course where technique doesn't mean a whole lot
    >>>and outright power allowed Lance to win probably his first ever cyclocross race. All it needs is
    >>>bleachers and pom pom
    >>
    >> girls.
    >>
    >>>Right, cyclocross for the masses. Get your program here
    >>
    >>Yeah, looks like cx for sissies to me. For comparison look at yesterdays race in Kalmthout
    >>(Belgium) for the real stuff: http://www.cyclocrossonline.be/html/foto/15-kalmthout/HTML/index.htm
    >>Great race by Richard Groenendaal.
    >
    >
    > What I'm finding objectionable about Albright and his gang of two is that I don't want to see
    > cyclocross, the last refuge of unprofessional FUN racing, reduced to a formulaic
    > play-station-esque bit of professional money making show gamesmanship.
    >
    > Already they've decided that they have to design cyclocross courses in such a manner that it
    > decidedly disadvantages MTB riders.

    What's the problem with that? It's cyclocross. If MTB riders don't want to be disadvantaged they
    should race NORBA or buy a 'cross bike. The point is to have fun, or in reality to suffer, on a bike
    similar to one's road bike. If you promote an event that caters to mountain bikes then there's going
    to be zero differentiation from NORBA short course cross-country races. IOW, lame ass races catering
    to professionals and their sponors without an ounce of FUN left for the rest of us fat asses.

    Greg

    --
    "Destroy your safe and happy lives before it is too late, the battles we fought were long and hard,
    just not to be consumed by rock n' roll..." - The Mekons
     
  4. G.T.

    G.T. Guest

    Tom Kunich wrote:
    > "Wade Summers" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:<[email protected]>...
    >
    >>That World Cup race in Belgium would automatically fall into Kunich's category of "cross for the
    >>masses" - more like a BMX course than a cross course (I still don't get that comparison). Remember
    >>that silly UCI rule of being 3 meters wide. Funny, I wonder if the riders who finished 10 minutes
    >>down, but still on the first lap didn't think the wide course was very technical?
    >
    >
    > In Europe where you have 25 riders all capable of finishing at or near the front you have to have
    > a wide course. Here where there are three riders you don't have that problem.
    >
    > Whenever you have a national or international event you are pretty much stuck with designing a
    > course in which the difficulties are caused by such things as a steep long run-up instead of
    > clever course design. In the USA, even at national level events, there simply aren't enough
    > serious contenders to follow UCI course design and you can AND SHOULD make better courses where
    > the determining factor for the winner is more dependant on skill and less on sheer strength.
    >
    > It should say an awful lot that the cyclocross specialists were beaten by Lance.

    I wouldn't say that those in the picture were "cyclocross specialists". They were a mix of local
    road and mtn bike pros and semi-pros.

    Greg

    --
    "Destroy your safe and happy lives before it is too late, the battles we fought were long and hard,
    just not to be consumed by rock n' roll..." - The Mekons
     
  5. Tom Kunich

    Tom Kunich Guest

    "Canuck" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    >
    > > Already they've decided that they have to design cyclocross courses in such a manner that it
    > > decidedly disadvantages MTB riders.
    >
    > In 'cross races, MTB technique should be disadvantaged, 'cross technique advantaged.
    >
    > duh!

    If you have to take great pains to design a race course that doesn't give a decided advantage to a
    bicycle design that was made specifically for off road racing that's telling you that it is a
    superior design. DUH.

    Remends me of the time they held that race from the California desert to the coast. There was one
    section of course that was 30 miles of paved road. Tinker Juarez got there first, changed to road
    wheels on his MTB and hit the other end in 1 hour flat. It would have been pretty hard to beat that
    time if he had just changed to a road bike.

    What does it say about cyclocross if the specialized bikes designed for it are only faster when you
    have to pick them up and carry them?
     
  6. Dan Connelly

    Dan Connelly Guest

    Tom Kunich wrote:
    > I suppose that if you fancy yourself a professional you prefer it that way since you'll never get
    > any surprises.

    Someone at Cross Nationals suggested they let wild dogs run on the course. Just a few, to keep it
    interesting. And muzzled. We wouldn't want anyone getting too badly hurt.

    Dan
     
  7. Tom Kunich

    Tom Kunich Guest

    "Greg Hall" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > http://www.txbra.org/featuredPhoto/featuredPhoto.asp
    >
    > Wonder if he'll ever try his hand at 6-day racing?

    It looks like one of those wide open 3 meter wide course where technique doesn't mean a whole lot
    and outright power allowed Lance to win probably his first ever cyclocross race. All it needs is
    bleachers and pom pom girls. Right, cyclocross for the masses. Get your program here.
     
  8. >Subject: This is what I call cross training From: [email protected] (Greg Hall)

    >http://www.txbra.org/featuredPhoto/featuredPhoto.asp
    >
    >Wonder if he'll ever try his hand at 6-day racing?

    I'd venture to say that he'd do better than Marty.... But while it is nice to see him racing cross
    on a cross bike, what the fuck is up with that number placement? That's the most retarded thing I've
    seen all day. Except for that picture of Eunich that keeps popping up everywhere.....

    -----Sharon Peters Personal Trainer to the Stars-------- Remove "No Junk" to reply please!!!
     
  9. Ken Papai

    Ken Papai Guest

  10. Sharon Peters <[email protected]> wrote:

    > >http://www.txbra.org/featuredPhoto/featuredPhoto.asp Wonder if he'll ever try his hand at 6-day
    > >racing?

    > I'd venture to say that he'd do better than Marty.... But while it is nice to see him racing cross
    > on a cross bike, what the fuck is up with that number placement? That's the most retarded thing
    > I've seen all day. Except for that picture of Eunich that keeps popping up everywhere.....

    That's easy. The number plates are because LANCE is practicing to take over the BMX world next. He
    figures it will be good training to improve his sprint, too.
     
  11. Tom Kunich <[email protected]> wrote:
    : "Greg Hall" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    : news:[email protected]...
    :> http://www.txbra.org/featuredPhoto/featuredPhoto.asp
    :>
    :> Wonder if he'll ever try his hand at 6-day racing?

    : It looks like one of those wide open 3 meter wide course where technique doesn't mean a whole lot
    : and outright power allowed Lance to win probably

    Uuh, right. Thought cyclocross means mud, snow, stones and hills? If it would be here, probably
    trees too.

    --
    Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/ varis at no spam please iki fi
     
  12. Ronald

    Ronald Guest

    > It looks like one of those wide open 3 meter wide course where technique doesn't mean a whole lot
    > and outright power allowed Lance to win probably his first ever cyclocross race. All it needs is
    > bleachers and pom pom
    girls.
    > Right, cyclocross for the masses. Get your program here

    Yeah, looks like cx for sissies to me. For comparison look at yesterdays race in Kalmthout (Belgium)
    for the real stuff: http://www.cyclocrossonline.be/html/foto/15-kalmthout/HTML/index.htm Great race
    by Richard Groenendaal.

    "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "Greg Hall" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > http://www.txbra.org/featuredPhoto/featuredPhoto.asp
    > >
    > > Wonder if he'll ever try his hand at 6-day racing?
    >
    > It looks like one of those wide open 3 meter wide course where technique doesn't mean a whole lot
    > and outright power allowed Lance to win probably his first ever cyclocross race. All it needs is
    > bleachers and pom pom
    girls.
    > Right, cyclocross for the masses. Get your program here.
     
  13. Wade Summers

    Wade Summers Guest

    Tom Kunich wrote in message ...
    >"Greg Hall" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected]...
    >> http://www.txbra.org/featuredPhoto/featuredPhoto.asp
    >>
    >> Wonder if he'll ever try his hand at 6-day racing?
    >
    >It looks like one of those wide open 3 meter wide course where technique doesn't mean a whole lot
    >and outright power allowed Lance to win probably his first ever cyclocross race. All it needs is
    >bleachers and pom pom
    girls.
    >Right, cyclocross for the masses. Get your program here.

    Or could it be he won because he is a world class rider and I've never heard of the other guys...
    Maybe his first cross race, but I'm sure he didn't go in unprepared.
     
  14. Armstrong

    Armstrong Guest

    "Sharon Peters" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > >Subject: Re: This is what I call cross training From: "armstrong"
    >
    > >Better than Marty!!?? are you out of your mind. You have never seen a
    Six
    > >day have you.
    > >
    > >Tom A.
    > >
    >
    > Nope, and I still kick myself for not going to Copenhagen when I had the chance. While I'm usually
    > full of crap, I don't think it's unreasonable
    to
    > think that LANCE would do better than Martha after some transition time.
    He is
    > after all a more endurance based rider, who has some background in
    sprinting
    > (pre cancer). And he does put out a shitload of watts.....
    >
    you have absolutely no idea what your talking about. Lance never had a back ground in sprinting and
    even after some transition Lance could never do as well as Marty is doing. Being a endurance based
    rider has nothing to do with it. Lance has no track experience and would look silly out there with
    Risi, Betschart, Kappes, Marty and others. I have no doubt that Lances endurance would not be his
    problem. His biggest problem would be the speed the tracks and the SPEED. If you ever have the
    chance to see a Six don't pass it up. I guarantee that you then will agree that Lance would stand
    no chance.

    Tom A.
     
  15. Tom Kunich

    Tom Kunich Guest

    "Wade Summers" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > That World Cup race in Belgium would automatically fall into Kunich's category of "cross for the
    > masses" - more like a BMX course than a cross course (I still don't get that comparison). Remember
    > that silly UCI rule of being 3 meters wide. Funny, I wonder if the riders who finished 10 minutes
    > down, but still on the first lap didn't think the wide course was very technical?

    In Europe where you have 25 riders all capable of finishing at or near the front you have to have a
    wide course. Here where there are three riders you don't have that problem.

    Whenever you have a national or international event you are pretty much stuck with designing a
    course in which the difficulties are caused by such things as a steep long run-up instead of clever
    course design. In the USA, even at national level events, there simply aren't enough serious
    contenders to follow UCI course design and you can AND SHOULD make better courses where the
    determining factor for the winner is more dependant on skill and less on sheer strength.

    It should say an awful lot that the cyclocross specialists were beaten by Lance.
     
  16. Canuck

    Canuck Guest

    "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...

    > Already they've decided that they have to design cyclocross courses in such a manner that it
    > decidedly disadvantages MTB riders.

    In 'cross races, MTB technique should be disadvantaged, 'cross technique advantaged.

    duh!
     
  17. Wade Summers

    Wade Summers Guest

    Tom Kunich wrote in message
    <[email protected]>...
    >"Wade Summers" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    >> That World Cup race in Belgium would automatically fall into Kunich's category of "cross for the
    >> masses" - more like a BMX course than a cross course (I still don't get that comparison).
    >> Remember that silly UCI
    rule
    >> of being 3 meters wide. Funny, I wonder if the riders who finished 10 minutes down, but still on
    >> the first lap didn't think the wide course was very technical?
    >
    >In Europe where you have 25 riders all capable of finishing at or near the front you have to have a
    >wide course. Here where there are three riders you don't have that problem.
    >

    There are not 25 guys in Euro races that can finish "at or near the front". Take a look at some
    results. The same 6-10 names keep popping up. You can't go into the process of designing a course
    with only 3 riders in mind. You have to look at what the race will be like in the first two laps.
    And most A fields at the big races in the US have at least 40 riders and the B and master's fields
    have 60-80.

    >Whenever you have a national or international event you are pretty much stuck with designing a
    >course in which the difficulties are caused by such things as a steep long run-up instead of clever
    >course design. In the USA, even at national level events, there simply aren't enough serious
    >contenders to follow UCI course design and you can AND SHOULD make better courses where the
    >determining factor for the winner is more dependant on skill and less on sheer strength.
    >

    I don't understand why you think a course, that at it's narrowest is just under 10 feet (3 meters),
    can't be a clever course. There are plenty of things that can be done with course design to make a
    course a good cross skills course while still maintaining the 10 ft width. What would your idea of
    better be? Please tell us what the great cyclocross course designer Tom Kunich would do.

    >It should say an awful lot that the cyclocross specialists were beaten by Lance.

    I follow cross fairly closely. I don't know who those riders were. They are not cross specialists.
    Nothing against them, they could be very good regional riders for all I know. But that is all they
    are. Lance is a world class professional. Perhaps you remember those 4 Tour de France victories...

    Wade
     
  18. Tom Kunich

    Tom Kunich Guest

    "G.T." <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > Tom Kunich wrote:
    > >
    > > Already they've decided that they have to design cyclocross courses in such a manner that it
    > > decidedly disadvantages MTB riders.
    >
    > What's the problem with that? It's cyclocross. If MTB riders don't want to be disadvantaged they
    > should race NORBA or buy a 'cross bike. The point is to have fun, or in reality to suffer, on a
    > bike similar to one's road bike. If you promote an event that caters to mountain bikes then
    > there's going to be zero differentiation from NORBA short course cross-country races. IOW, lame
    > ass races catering to professionals and their sponors without an ounce of FUN left for the rest of
    > us fat asses.

    That's the problem Greg. I remember reading those people who wanted to get rid of mountain bikes on
    the course so they started designing courses without any extended climbs where the MTB's would have
    an advantage. They they wanted to get rid of steep, rough drops that would give the MTB's an
    advantage. And then any rough terrain at all that would give MTB's an advantage.

    So the courses are all going to become vanilla, BMX courses with a run-up, three barriers 2 meters
    apart, 3 meters wide over the entire course, a mud pit and a section of pavement. And where ever you
    go you'll be able to ride the same course with different scenary around the course boundaries.

    I suppose that if you fancy yourself a professional you prefer it that way since you'll never get
    any surprises.
     
  19. in article [email protected], Wade Summers at [email protected] wrote on
    12/23/02 5:18 PM:

    > I follow cross fairly closely. I don't know who those riders were. They are not cross specialists.
    > Nothing against them, they could be very good regional riders for all I know. But that is all they
    > are. Lance is a world class professional. Perhaps you remember those 4 Tour de France victories...

    I consider Will Black a 'cross specialist, and a good rider. Consistent top-30/20 SuperCup-type guy.
    Probably the best Texas 'cross rider.

    Adam
     
  20. Wade Summers

    Wade Summers Guest

    Tom Kunich wrote in message
    <[email protected]>...
    >"G.T." <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    >> Tom Kunich wrote:
    >> >
    >> > Already they've decided that they have to design cyclocross courses in such a manner that it
    >> > decidedly disadvantages MTB riders.
    >
    >That's the problem Greg. I remember reading those people who wanted to get rid of mountain bikes on
    >the course so they started designing courses without any extended climbs where the MTB's would have
    >an advantage. They they wanted to get rid of steep, rough drops that would give the MTB's an
    >advantage. And then any rough terrain at all that would give MTB's an advantage.
    >

    And promoters should design courses with cyclocross bikes in mind because it is a cyclocross race
    not a mountain bike race. The difference is quite dramatic - riding a mountain bike over rough
    terrain and riding a cyclocross bike over the same terrain. Stuff that wouldn't even phase you on a
    mtb with wide tires and suspension can be down right dangerous on a cross bike. If you want to do a
    mountain bike race go do a mountain bike race. It is a different sport. Remember cyclocross has it
    roots in road racing and came along long before mountain bikes were even thought of.

    I think many courses having mountain bike terrain have that terrain because the clubs putting on the
    races only have ( or had ) experience putting on mountain bike races or road races. They may have
    never seen a true cyclocross course. The terrain was not put there because it makes for a unique
    cross race, it was put there because the people didn't know any better. Cyclocross? Must be a
    combination of road racing and mountain biking. Right? Wrong.

    >So the courses are all going to become vanilla, BMX courses with a run-up, three barriers 2 meters
    >apart, 3 meters wide over the entire course, a mud pit and a section of pavement. And where ever
    >you go you'll be able to ride the same course with different scenary around the course boundaries.

    Again with the BMX. What, did some kid on a BMX bike pick on you or something...

    I think the leap you make from courses being designed to be good cyclocross courses to all courses
    being "vanilla" and all the same is far fetched. Come east next fall. Race all the New England races
    on a cross bike and see if you find them technically easy. See if they are all the same. See if the
    racing isn't fun.

    >
    >I suppose that if you fancy yourself a professional you prefer it that way since you'll never get
    >any surprises.

    (from an earlier Kunich post)
    >What I'm finding objectionable about Albright and his gang of two is that I don't want to see
    >cyclocross, the last refuge of unprofessional FUN racing, reduced to a formulaic play-station-esque
    >bit of professional money making show gamesmanship.

    And what is this? The last refuge of unprofessional racing? Where have you been racing? I did
    upwards of 50 races this year between road and cross and 99% were all put on for non-professionals.
    Even at Crit Nats, where the big show is the Pro race, the majority of the races were for amateurs.
    Cross nats too. Lots and lots of racers who are there because it is fun. How many Pro only races are
    there in this country? Very few. Most races; road, cross, mountain or otherwise are put on by clubs
    for club riders. If a couple of local pros show up for the P1/2 race, great. If some clubs get some
    sponsorship and can afford, announcing stands, banners, barriers, making there event look "pro" -
    all the better.

    And what do you really care about cyclocross? How many cyclocross races did you do this year? How
    many have you ever done? How many did you go watch? What is your experience? And I don't want to
    hear about the good ol' days of motorcycle racing, BMX or mountain biking. They have nothing to do
    with cyclocross.

    Wade
     
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