This newsgroup is the absolute pits



T

tam

Guest
What a load of drivel these threads are.
Not a clue about the topic.
Recumbent bikes.
Cross posting-blah-blah-blah.
I wish this group could contain the quality of articles
by Ross Lowell-my hero-Greenspeed rider.
A man among men.
Or Bob Dixon.
Drivel drivel drivel.
A real recumbent rider for 10 years.
Tam
 
T

Tom Sherman

Guest
tam wrote:
> What a load of drivel these threads are.
> Not a clue about the topic.
> Recumbent bikes.
> Cross posting-blah-blah-blah.
> I wish this group could contain the quality of articles
> by Ross Lowell-my hero-Greenspeed rider.
> A man among men.
> Or Bob Dixon.
> Drivel drivel drivel.
> A real recumbent rider for 10 years.
> Tam


Complaining does not help, but only encourages the trolls.

Posting more on-topic content does help.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter
 
T

tam

Guest
"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> tam wrote:
>> What a load of drivel these threads are.
>> Not a clue about the topic.
>> Recumbent bikes.
>> Cross posting-blah-blah-blah.
>> I wish this group could contain the quality of articles
>> by Ross Lowell-my hero-Greenspeed rider.
>> A man among men.
>> Or Bob Dixon.
>> Drivel drivel drivel.
>> A real recumbent rider for 10 years.
>> Tam

>
> Complaining does not help, but only encourages the trolls.


Absolutely do not want to do that.

> Posting more on-topic content does help.
>

Unfortunately I am rather idle in that respect and worship at the feet of my
heroes.
Ian Sims etc although I have a great deal of fabrication knowledge MIG TIG
brazing
carbon-fibreglass moulding wheel building etc I do lack breadth of knowledge
on
recumbents across the board--I think almost all recumbent owners do.
The recumbent is always going to be an exotic machine--its always going to
be bulky
and heavy.
Punters do not understand basics like carbon fibre is only half the
structural weight the other half is resin
so weight savings are minimal--very easy for a D-I-Y er to work with though.
Astronomically expensive- my present D-I-Y project is going to have £300 of
carbon in it
People like me who commute and travel on them love the best of them to bits.
I am fortunate living in Scotland I can fly to bike heavens like Holland
Denmark Switzerland
France and my all time favourite Berlin.
I am working on the most complex part of my new trike at the moment the
front suspension.
I have built it in steel then when all the geometry has been tested-theory
and practice are two different things-
I will build it in alloy and carbon.
Suspension uses MTB air struts very difficult to get just right--in fact I
am thinking of going back to fabric in tension
The improvement of air over fabric is not worth the extra
complication/weight--the ride comfort is almost identical.
Tam
 
J

Jon

Guest
"tam" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote
>> Complaining does not help, but only encourages the trolls.


Responding to them even moreso. But all posts are trolls (think
fishing technique). It is the quality of the bait and the character
of the fisher that make the difference. The lake does seem
to have its share of AOLs... c'est la vie.

> The recumbent is always going to be an exotic machine--


Perhaps, but it depends on the definition of exotic. Recumbents
do represent only a small portion of the overall bicycle market. But
nothing on most recumbents is particularly 'exotic'. The
BikeE beam and swing-arm design are certainly not standard,
but all of the other part on the BikeE are off-the-shelf,-- as are
most of the parts of my Tour Easy and Volae.

There are arguably many exotic diamond frame (DF), Y-frame,
etc, upright bikes... High-end racing bikes (TdF) resemble
commodity department store bikes only crudely in geometry
and even less so in material and construction.

> [recumbent bikes are] always going to be bulky and heavy.


This is a matter of design and materials. No reason they have
to be *heavy*. Bulky is somewhat of a different matter, but my
SWB Volae is hardly much more 'bulky' than an upright bike.

But it is true, in general that recumbents are heavier and bulkier
than uprights, and more expensive, too. The cost factor isn't
likely to change dramtically, soon, but the EZ line of bikes
has made some in-roads into lower cost recumbent models.

> Astronomically expensive- my present D-I-Y project is
> going to have £300 of carbon in it


Economies of scale may come into play here. But high-end
factory-produced carbon DF frames are not cheap either.
There are some real carbom craftsmen working on recumbent
design and implementation. (NoCom, etc.) Don't know about
light-weight trikes...

> People like me who commute and travel on them love the best of them to
> bits.
> I am fortunate living in Scotland I can fly to bike heavens like Holland
> Denmark Switzerland
> France and my all time favourite Berlin.


I am trying to put together a bike tour in the Netherlands next summer. We
have friends there. I need to look into renting a recumbent bike suitable
for
lightly loaded, but self-supported (no SAG/baggage vehicle) touring for a
week or ten days.

> I am working on the most complex part of my new trike at the
> moment the front suspension


Do you have a website with pictures of your work in progress?

Jon
 
P

Peter Clinch

Guest
Jon wrote:
> "tam" <[email protected]> wrote


>> [recumbent bikes are] always going to be bulky and heavy.

>
> This is a matter of design and materials. No reason they have
> to be *heavy*. Bulky is somewhat of a different matter, but my
> SWB Volae is hardly much more 'bulky' than an upright bike.


have you seen the recumbent conversion for the Brompton? That's a lot
less bulky than most uprights, the brompton without it being one of the
few exceptions!

>> Astronomically expensive- my present D-I-Y project is
>> going to have £300 of carbon in it


And would it be cheap if it was a bespoke wedgie with lots of carbon? I
doubt it!

>> People like me who commute and travel on them love the best of them to
>> bits.


With reservations. I run 3 bikes to cover most of my cycling needs, and
only one is a 'bent. The other two (a brompton and a Burrows 8 freight)
work better as wedgies. My wife has a very nice Nazca Fiero for
touring, but her daily commute bike is an old Giant hybrid, which simply
makes more sense for the commute she has. Horses for courses.

> I am trying to put together a bike tour in the Netherlands next summer. We
> have friends there. I need to look into renting a recumbent bike suitable
> for
> lightly loaded, but self-supported (no SAG/baggage vehicle) touring for a
> week or ten days.


When testing for my wife's tourer, we hired from Ligfietscentrum in
Brielle (http://www.ligfietscentrum.nl) and Ligfietswinkel in Amsterdam
(http://www.ligfietswinkel.nl/indexEng.htm). The latter is rather more
convenient for Schiphol.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
T

tam

Guest
"Jon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]anews.com...
> "tam" <[email protected]> wrote
>>
>> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote
>>> Complaining does not help, but only encourages the trolls.

>
> Responding to them even moreso. But all posts are trolls (think
> fishing technique). It is the quality of the bait and the character
> of the fisher that make the difference. The lake does seem
> to have its share of AOLs... c'est la vie.
>
>> The recumbent is always going to be an exotic machine--

>
> Perhaps, but it depends on the definition of exotic. Recumbents
> do represent only a small portion of the overall bicycle market. But
> nothing on most recumbents is particularly 'exotic'. The
> BikeE beam and swing-arm design are certainly not standard,
> but all of the other part on the BikeE are off-the-shelf,-- as are
> most of the parts of my Tour Easy and Volae.


Must say as a cyclist who trikes due to disablement--poor balance- I am
struck by ultra conservative nature of the upwrong community.
I agree that many components are
off the shelf-not-on a recumbent folding recumbent trike though.

> There are arguably many exotic diamond frame (DF), Y-frame,
> etc, upright bikes... High-end racing bikes (TdF) resemble
> commodity department store bikes only crudely in geometry
> and even less so in material and construction.


Its interesting that in the UK we expect a Rolls Royce for the price
of a Ford Escort--whereas in Europe cyclists expect to pay between £400
to £800 for an "ordinary" bike.
>
>> [recumbent bikes are] always going to be bulky and heavy.

>
> This is a matter of design and materials. No reason they have
> to be *heavy*. Bulky is somewhat of a different matter, but my
> SWB Volae is hardly much more 'bulky' than an upright bike.


The Rans looks a pretty compact machine to-but-they are all more difficult
to manage in a lift- doorway- underground and train.
>
> But it is true, in general that recumbents are heavier and bulkier
> than uprights, and more expensive, too. The cost factor isn't
> likely to change dramtically, soon, but the EZ line of bikes
> has made some in-roads into lower cost recumbent models.
>
>> Astronomically expensive- my present D-I-Y project is
>> going to have £300 of carbon in it

>
> Economies of scale may come into play here. But high-end
> factory-produced carbon DF frames are not cheap either.
> There are some real carbom craftsmen working on recumbent
> design and implementation. (NoCom, etc.) Don't know about
> light-weight trikes...


Problem with carbon is the high material cost due to zero competition and
the skilled labour cost.
Its quite easy to D-I-Y though it will not have the strength of a factory
component
but its phenominally strong anyway.
>
>> People like me who commute and travel on them love the best of them to
>> bits.
>> I am fortunate living in Scotland I can fly to bike heavens like Holland
>> Denmark Switzerland
>> France and my all time favourite Berlin.

>
> I am trying to put together a bike tour in the Netherlands next summer.
> We
> have friends there. I need to look into renting a recumbent bike suitable
> for
> lightly loaded, but self-supported (no SAG/baggage vehicle) touring for a
> week or ten days.
>
>> I am working on the most complex part of my new trike at the
>> moment the front suspension

>
> Do you have a website with pictures of your work in progress?

At present I am laid up with flue but I could post my rather crude
"blacksmithed"
MK1 front end.
Tam
 
P

Peter Clinch

Guest
tam wrote:

> I agree that many components are
> off the shelf-not-on a recumbent folding recumbent trike though.


I would lay pretty good odds that your entire transmission is off the
shelf, however, which is a pretty major chunk.

> Its interesting that in the UK we expect a Rolls Royce for the price
> of a Ford Escort--whereas in Europe cyclists expect to pay between £400
> to £800 for an "ordinary" bike.


Up to a point. You still see plenty of Bicycle Shaped Objects in NL.
Much less by proportion, certainly, but still a fair few. And you also
see far more complete heaps that still manage to get people about. IIRC
the average spend on a /new/ bike in NL is about £350, rather less than
"between £400 to £800".

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
T

tam

Guest
"Peter Clinch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Jon wrote:
>> "tam" <[email protected]> wrote

>
>>> [recumbent bikes are] always going to be bulky and heavy.

>>
>> This is a matter of design and materials. No reason they have
>> to be *heavy*. Bulky is somewhat of a different matter, but my
>> SWB Volae is hardly much more 'bulky' than an upright bike.

>
> have you seen the recumbent conversion for the Brompton? That's a lot
> less bulky than most uprights, the brompton without it being one of the
> few exceptions!


Yes it looks a good bolt on component.
We have his and hers Bromptons they are great little machines for the price.

>>> Astronomically expensive- my present D-I-Y project is
>>> going to have £300 of carbon in it

>
> And would it be cheap if it was a bespoke wedgie with lots of carbon? I
> doubt it!

No way--I think my new carbon trike would cost about £6000 retail.

>>> People like me who commute and travel on them love the best of them to
>>> bits.

>
> With reservations. I run 3 bikes to cover most of my cycling needs, and
> only one is a 'bent. The other two (a brompton and a Burrows 8 freight)
> work better as wedgies. My wife has a very nice Nazca Fiero for
> touring, but her daily commute bike is an old Giant hybrid, which simply
> makes more sense for the commute she has. Horses for courses.


Problem is uprights are so uncomfortable compared to recumbents.
>
>> I am trying to put together a bike tour in the Netherlands next summer.
>> We
>> have friends there. I need to look into renting a recumbent bike
>> suitable
>> for
>> lightly loaded, but self-supported (no SAG/baggage vehicle) touring for a
>> week or ten days.

You will certainly enjoy it.
If you visit Amsterdam remember to camp outside the city and take the train
in
there is an excellent tram system within the town.
The Amsterdam junkies can break any chain/lock known to man!.
You probably know that already though.
>
> When testing for my wife's tourer, we hired from Ligfietscentrum in
> Brielle (http://www.ligfietscentrum.nl) and Ligfietswinkel in Amsterdam
> (http://www.ligfietswinkel.nl/indexEng.htm). The latter is rather more
> convenient for Schiphol.

Schipol a nightmare for me due to walking difficulties its vast-and-they
keep changing
the departure gates.
Tam
 
W

Wilson Warmouth

Guest
"tam" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> What a load of drivel these threads are.
> Not a clue about the topic.
> Recumbent bikes.
> Cross posting-blah-blah-blah.
> I wish this group could contain the quality of articles
> by Ross Lowell-my hero-Greenspeed rider.
> A man among men.
> Or Bob Dixon.
> Drivel drivel drivel.
> A real recumbent rider for 10 years.
> Tam
>

Show some self restraint man. Stop reading obviously off topic posts and
then complaining about them. If you lack the self discipline required for
USENET then learn how to use filters or delete the posts you don't want to
read before you read them. Your complaints are no better than those of the
trolls. Do others a favor - if you can't hack it on USENET then take your
whining about ARBR to BROL where you may find a few kindred sprits.
 
P

Peter Clinch

Guest
tam wrote:

> Problem is uprights are so uncomfortable compared to recumbents.


That's a bit like saying the problem with tourers is they're slower than
racers... it's only a problem if you really need the extra speed and the
tourer isn't fast *enough*. While comfort is a Good Thing, a standard
saddle is pretty much a non-issue on a lot of bike journeys because
they're not very long, and if they're not very long there's not much to
be gained by crouching over the bars either. Which is why I prefer my
Brom for flitting about town.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
T

tam

Guest
"Peter Clinch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> tam wrote:
>
>> I agree that many components are
>> off the shelf-not-on a recumbent folding recumbent trike though.

>
> I would lay pretty good odds that your entire transmission is off the
> shelf, however, which is a pretty major chunk.

It is and it isnt.
Transmission is SACHS 7x3 hub-have not decided on front triple chain or
another 3 speed hub.
I need a massive gear inch range for Scotland whereas 7 speeds do for
Berlin.
The front end of a trike is fiendishly complex on a suspended machine.
Top and bottom wishbones 4 off axle carriers 2 off stub axles 2 off
steering links 2 off spherical ends 4 off steering link to above seat
knuckle-on and on--
mostly hand made.

>> Its interesting that in the UK we expect a Rolls Royce for the price
>> of a Ford Escort--whereas in Europe cyclists expect to pay between £400
>> to £800 for an "ordinary" bike.

>
> Up to a point. You still see plenty of Bicycle Shaped Objects in NL.
> Much less by proportion, certainly, but still a fair few. And you also
> see far more complete heaps that still manage to get people about. IIRC
> the average spend on a /new/ bike in NL is about £350, rather less than
> "between £400 to £800".

I took my prices from the bike shops.
As you say if the wheels go round a Dutchman will ride it.
Tam
 
T

tam

Guest
"Wilson Warmouth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "tam" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>> What a load of drivel these threads are.
>> Not a clue about the topic.
>> Recumbent bikes.
>> Cross posting-blah-blah-blah.
>> I wish this group could contain the quality of articles
>> by Ross Lowell-my hero-Greenspeed rider.
>> A man among men.
>> Or Bob Dixon.
>> Drivel drivel drivel.
>> A real recumbent rider for 10 years.
>> Tam
>>

> Show some self restraint man. Stop reading obviously off topic posts and
> then complaining about them. If you lack the self discipline required for
> USENET then learn how to use filters or delete the posts you don't want to
> read before you read them. Your complaints are no better than those of
> the trolls. Do others a favor - if you can't hack it on USENET then take
> your whining about ARBR to BROL where you may find a few kindred sprits.

Temper temper--
Do you read the Telegraph?.
Tam
 
W

Wilson Warmouth

Guest
"tam" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]lueyonder.co.uk...
>
> "Wilson Warmouth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>>
>> "tam" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]
>>> What a load of drivel these threads are.
>>> Not a clue about the topic.
>>> Recumbent bikes.
>>> Cross posting-blah-blah-blah.
>>> I wish this group could contain the quality of articles
>>> by Ross Lowell-my hero-Greenspeed rider.
>>> A man among men.
>>> Or Bob Dixon.
>>> Drivel drivel drivel.
>>> A real recumbent rider for 10 years.
>>> Tam
>>>

>> Show some self restraint man. Stop reading obviously off topic posts and
>> then complaining about them. If you lack the self discipline required
>> for USENET then learn how to use filters or delete the posts you don't
>> want to read before you read them. Your complaints are no better than
>> those of the trolls. Do others a favor - if you can't hack it on USENET
>> then take your whining about ARBR to BROL where you may find a few
>> kindred sprits.

> Temper temper--
> Do you read the Telegraph?.
> Tam
>

I have read the Telegraph, but I prefer other sources of information.

Even so I don't whine to the editor about the newspaper being the absolute
pits.

Why do you ask?

Have you considered how some others might consider this to be drivel?
 
T

Tom Sherman

Guest
tam wrote:
> ...
> The Rans looks a pretty compact machine....


What is a "Rans"?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter
 
T

Tom Sherman

Guest
Edward Dolan wrote:
> ...
> Ian Sims is one of the biggest jackasses ever to come from 'down under.' His
> Greenspeed is the most overpriced piece of junk ever invented. He doesn't
> have brains enough to know how to make a good delta trike, so instead he
> makes those confounded go-cart tadpoles at exorbitant prices....


butbutbut [1], Greenspeed DOES make a delta trike:
<http://www.greenspeed.com.au/anura_main.html>.

[1] Gratuitous gdanielsism.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter
 
J

Jon

Guest
"Peter Clinch" <[email protected]> wrote
> Jon wrote:
>> my SWB Volae is hardly much more 'bulky' than an upright bike.

>
> have you seen the recumbent conversion for the Brompton? That's a lot
> less bulky than most uprights, the brompton without it being one of the
> few exceptions!


No, haven't seen one, but I'll look it up. For a jump-on-and-go short
trip, I still prefer my BikeE. It's hard to beat it for a couple mile
trip to the post office or market. There were some folding conversions
tried for BikeEs... Maybe if I see one cheap enough on Craigs list I'll
have a go at modifying a BikeE. Or maybe just buy one to leave at
work for lunch-time rides! %^)

>> I am trying to put together a bike tour in the Netherlands next summer.
>> We

>
> When testing for my wife's tourer, we hired from Ligfietscentrum in
> Brielle (http://www.ligfietscentrum.nl) and Ligfietswinkel in Amsterdam
> (http://www.ligfietswinkel.nl/indexEng.htm). The latter is rather more
> convenient for Schiphol.


Thanks, I'll have a look.

Jon
 
J

Jon

Guest
"Peter Clinch" <[email protected]> wrote
> tam wrote:
>
>> Its interesting that in the UK we expect a Rolls Royce for the price
>> of a Ford Escort--whereas in Europe cyclists expect to pay between £400
>> to £800 for an "ordinary" bike.

>
> the average spend on a /new/ bike in NL is about £350, rather less than
> "between £400 to £800".


Given that the majority of bikes purchased in the US probably are
kid's bikes (~80 USD), the average is much lower here. Even for
'adult' bikes, £350 (700 USD) is more than twice what a people
pay for a 'good' "department store" bike or for an entry level bike
at a local bike shop (LBS).

For non-commodity bikes, 700 USD may be a reasonable guess at
the average price. A number of serious and semi-serious cyclists
I know have upright bikes more expensive than my most expensive
recumbent. And I spend a lot less on cycling-specific clothing. I
haven't bought padded cycling shorts in 10+ years. %^)

Jon
 
J

Jon

Guest
"tam" <[email protected]blueyonder.co.uk> wrote
> Jon wrote:
>>
>> factory-produced carbon DF frames are not cheap either.

>
> Problem with carbon is the high material cost due to zero
> competition and the skilled labour cost. Its quite easy to
> D-I-Y though it will not have the strength of a factory component but its
> phenominally strong anyway.


Factories buy materials in bulk, of course. Adn the have the
processes and expensive fabrication systems to use precisesly
varying thicknesses of material just where they need it.

There were some interesting journals of DIY carbon bike frame
fabrication techniques a few years ago. Looked like a mix of
art, skill and inventive problem solving.

>> Do you have a website with pictures of your work in progress?

>
> I could post my rather crude "blacksmithed" MK1 front end.


Post a link when you do.

Jon
 
T

tam

Guest
"Jon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> "tam" <[email protected]> wrote
>> Jon wrote:
>>>
>>> factory-produced carbon DF frames are not cheap either.

>>
>> Problem with carbon is the high material cost due to zero
>> competition and the skilled labour cost. Its quite easy to
>> D-I-Y though it will not have the strength of a factory component but its
>> phenominally strong anyway.

>
> Factories buy materials in bulk, of course. Adn the have the
> processes and expensive fabrication systems to use precisesly
> varying thicknesses of material just where they need it.
>
> There were some interesting journals of DIY carbon bike frame
> fabrication techniques a few years ago. Looked like a mix of
> art, skill and inventive problem solving.


The best articles I have read on carbon D-I-Y are by a motorcycle enthusiast
Richards Carbon Fibre Pages.
A superb series although you do not need vacuum bagging to produce good
carbon components.

>>> Do you have a website with pictures of your work in progress?


No but you can read all about it on the gnat recumbent trike website--just
put gnat etc into your search engine
and it will take you there.

Tam