Those guys are unreal!

[Pistol Pete]

I was a spectator last week-end during the Pro Tour's Grand Prix Cycliste in Montreal. I watched the pros climb the hills I trained on weekly. I can tell you one thing, those guys can't be on plain water. I fully admire those great athletes for their strength and courage, but you just can't do what they do without some kind of medicinal help. When I saw Philippe Gilbert climb a 8% average, 2km hill at over 17 mph on the big ring, after more than 200 grueling kilometers, I told myself "that guy is not human!". When I watch sports like football, tennis etc, I tell myself those guys are good but what they do is humanly possible with some talent and lots of training. But pro cyclists, I don't think so.

What's your take on this?

 

[tonyzackery]

I really am conflicted on this one: part of me doesn't think they're doing what they do on bread and water alone, at least not the consistently on the top guys. The other part of me thinks it can be done as a result of tons and tons of training and choosing the best set of parents.

I just don't know for sure. I know that my mind tells me that I hope they're clean...

 

[jhuskey]

Consider that this is their job, full time, and I know that some take enhancing substances but that only gets you so far. If you do something enough you get better at it especially if you are gifted to start with. I bet I would even get faster if I trained 5 days a week full time or maybe just die from exhaustion.

 

[alienator]

Originally Posted by Pistol Pete .

I was a spectator last week-end during the Pro Tour's Grand Prix Cycliste in Montreal. I watched the pros climb the hills I trained on weekly. I can tell you one thing, those guys can't be on plain water. I fully admire those great athletes for their strength and courage, but you just can't do what they do without some kind of medicinal help. When I saw Philippe Gilbert climb a 8% average, 2km hill at over 17 mph on the big ring, after more than 200 grueling kilometers, I told myself "that guy is not human!". When I watch sports like football, tennis etc, I tell myself those guys are good but what they do is humanly possible with some talent and lots of training. But pro cyclists, I don't think so.

What's your take on this?

People come up with all manner of explanations for things they don't understand. Are you aware at all of how much pros train and race in a given year? For that matter, are you aware of how many years on end they've been doing that training and racing, all to get to where they are now? The professional cycling regimen is completely unfamiliar to most recreational cyclists, and possibly to even non-pro cyclists.

 

[maydog]

Some people can do amazing things on a diet of just bread and veggies.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/10/11/herschel.fitness.martial.arts/index.html

You just need the right parents and a bit of luck.

 

[swampy1970]

Originally Posted by Pistol Pete .

I was a spectator last week-end during the Pro Tour's Grand Prix Cycliste in Montreal. I watched the pros climb the hills I trained on weekly. I can tell you one thing, those guys can't be on plain water. I fully admire those great athletes for their strength and courage, but you just can't do what they do without some kind of medicinal help. When I saw Philippe Gilbert climb a 8% average, 2km hill at over 17 mph on the big ring, after more than 200 grueling kilometers, I told myself "that guy is not human!". When I watch sports like football, tennis etc, I tell myself those guys are good but what they do is humanly possible with some talent and lots of training. But pro cyclists, I don't think so.

What's your take on this?

My take is: that 8% for 2Km at ~7.5 m/s is about 500watts to 550watts.

Very plausable.

Next, the cow jumped over the moon on a diet of grass and water. Mice were spotted running up clocks after eating cheese and breaking news just in, an owl was spotted viciously attacking a pussycat that tried to steal it's runcible spoon the day after they were married by a turkey.

 

[Pistol Pete]

Originally Posted by alienator .

"People come up with all manner of explanations for things they don't understand. Are you aware at all of how much pros train and race in a given year? For that matter, are you aware of how many years on end they've been doing that training and racing, all to get to where they are now? The professional cycling regimen is completely unfamiliar to most recreational cyclists, and possibly to even non-pro cyclists."

Well actually, I very well know what those guys go through to get where they are. I have met several pros over the years. I even trained with Urs Zimmermann when I lived in Europe. He finished third at the 1986 Tour de France. Those guys ride over 30,000 km a year and follow a very strict training and eating routine. Those guys are my heros, whether they dope or not. But that is not my point. My point is, I played college tennis and soccer, and when I look at the best in the world, I tell myself that if I had dedicated my life to those sports, I could probably "come close" to competing with them. I know guys who can drive a golf ball 300 yards or play 4 under par. I know guys who serve at 120 mph, easy. I know guys who can hit a baseball well over 400 ft. But no amateur can even come close to Contador when he climbs a mountain, or even come close to the slowest climber at the Tour for that matter. When scientists analyzed Contador's climb in Verbier at last year's Tour, they came to the conclusion that it wasn't physically possible to climb so fast without some kind of "help". And one last thing, many, many pro cyclists got caught doping in the past. Do you really think they are all clean now? Still, I admire those guys and I love to watch them perform at the highest level. Maybe they should just simply allow doping. Sad, indeed.

 

[Pistol Pete]

Originally Posted by swampy1970 .

My take is: that 8% for 2Km at ~7.5 m/s is about 500watts to 550watts.
Very plausable.

Yes of course, if you do it once. They did it about 25 times!!!!

 

[alienator]

So, how many scientists came to the conclusion that Contador's climb up the Verbier was impossible without artificial aid? How many scientists repeated their experiments or studies and found the same thing? Who verified their boundary conditions for their study (or studies)? Who verified that any assumptions made were valid? Was the study published in a refereed journal? What would scientists in 1903 have said about the possibility of someone riding an hour as fast as Chris Boardman did when he set a record in 1996? Show that it is the conclusion of the majority of exercise physiologists and other scientists in significantly related fields that such performance are impossible without artificial aid, and then show the data that all of those people agree on.

Your supposition and accusation that obviously doping is the reason behind these performances lacks factual basis. Moreover, it fails critical thought to assume that since some riders dope, all performances that you don't understand or can't comprehend are the result of riders who dope. Sorry, I don't buy into rumor mongering or wild speculation. Frankly, it's stupid and lazy....and it's all too common.

Also, for reference, there is a sub-forum here for doping discussion and cavorting in rumor mongering. Simply scan down the page of sub-forums and you'll find it.

On to other topics......did anyone read about those engineers that said the collapse of the WTC on 9/11 had to be an inside job? Engineers said and studied so it's fact! Hey, some people in science and engineering said we didn't actually go to the Moon, land, and walk around! So it's fact that we didn't. How liberating.

And obviously the cow jumped over the moon because the grain he ate was pumped full of steroids and other performance enhancing substances.

 

[Pistol Pete]

I can see I touched a sensitive nerve here. You can hide your head in the sand all you want and live in your own fantasy world, but the reality is that most pro cyclists dope and hundreds of them have been caught doing it, the first ever recorded in 1886. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cycling

I'm sorry to break the news to you my friend.

 

[oldbobcat]

Originally Posted by Pistol Pete .

I can see I touched a sensitive nerve here. You can hide your head in the sand all you want and live in your own fantasy world, but the reality is that most pro cyclists dope and hundreds of them have been caught doing it, the first ever recorded in 1886. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cycling

I'm sorry to break the news to you my friend.

Aha! So that's where you were taking us.

 

[alienator]

Originally Posted by Pistol Pete .

I can see I touched a sensitive nerve here. You can hide your head in the sand all you want and live in your own fantasy world, but the reality is that most pro cyclists dope and hundreds of them have been caught doing it, the first ever recorded in 1886. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cycling

I'm sorry to break the news to you my friend.

I applaud you for finding a Wikipedia entry that doesn't say anything about every pro cyclist doping. Congratulations. Oh by the way, here's a Wikipedia entry that you should probably review: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thought . It has other links in it to help understand some of the complicated, related "thinking" stuff about critical thought.

 

[Pistol Pete]

I think you are going a little bit far. Your reaction is extremist and even scary. If you have this kind of reaction at the dinner table each time you have an arguments, I'm sure you are eating alone by now. All I am saying is that I've been hearing about all those doping scandals over the last 20 years that I've been following cycling. I've been training and racing at an amateur level myself so I know a little bit about the sport. Now when I see the pros doing stuff I can't believe possible, I simply wonder how they do it. So without having any real proof, I WONDER if they are indeed doping. I'm not saying any of them are, I'm just saying I wouldn't be surprised if they did.

 

[swampy1970]

Originally Posted by Pistol Pete .





Yes of course, if you do it once. They did it about 25 times!!!!

Well, that's why they're Pro's riding ProTour events and we aren't. 2km at 17mph is about 4min 30...

... and I know from the highlights of that race that they didn't fly up that hill every single time and while I could go and look at a map and see which direction the hill was and then figure out from the weather channel which way the wind was blowing and use that to see approximately how much easier/harder it'd be that just plain Jane 500 watts, I really can't be bothered because you have your mind set that they're all cheating b'stards who're hopped up on PEDs.

As a side note, Indurain, during his hour record setting ride put out a calculated 509watts for an hour - not just for 4.5 minutes every once in a while

 

[swampy1970]

Originally Posted by Pistol Pete .

I can see I touched a sensitive nerve here. You can hide your head in the sand all you want and live in your own fantasy world, but the reality is that most pro cyclists dope and hundreds of them have been caught doing it, the first ever recorded in 1886. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cycling

I'm sorry to break the news to you my friend.

10 posts in and you think we didn't find that link about 5 years ago.

Go spend some time looking at data taken from powermeters up on trainingpeaks and then come back with an actual informed opinion of what it and what isn't possible for the lads that do this day in and day out...

That you are an ignorant dope doesn't mean that these guys dope.

 

[Pistol Pete]

They all dope. ALL OF THEM. This is why they do what do do. If they did not dope, I could follow them with a tricycle up that hill.

 

[jhuskey]

I can follow them on a tricycle now. The key term is follow. Doping doesn't make you good it only enhances what you already have and helps in recovery. If only a pill could make you into an elite athlete.

 

[alienator]

Pistolero Pete spreading the good word:

 

[Pistol Pete]

Well said Jhuskey! At last someone is starting to make sense here. Of course, I was kidding about the tricycle. I couldn't follow those guys if I were in EPO and they had 20 pounds extra! Drugs or not, I enjoy the show they give us and especially the Tour de France every summer.

 

[alienator]

Yes, Jhuskey's comment makes sense and are backed by actual data about the well established (uhm, scientifically) effects of doping agents and modalities. It's not a stupid, ill-informed statement like "They all dope. ALL OF THEM.", a statement for which there is absolutely no proof, no data to support such claim, and a statement which fails critical thought at every level.