Three reasons why calories probably don't count



On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 18:33:21 -0500, Susan <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Have you heard of anorexia? Supermodels? Jockeys?


Increased GABA production during starving has a bad side of making you
feel very happy (most probably a survival mechanism in hunger
catastrophs or left alone in a desert or alike when it is important to
not being depressed and give up, even though there are no edible food
available)

It might be a part of the mechanism behind extreme slimming. It feels
just like taking speed.
 
On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 18:34:58 -0800, "GaryG" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Maybe I'm just lucky, but I've been able to maintain at 170 lbs (I'm 6'
>tall) for a couple of years now by simply eating a bit less and exercising a
>bit more. I don't drink sodas, and I rarely eat beef, bacon, etc. I try to
>get lots of fresh fruits, nuts, and vegetables every day. I also try to
>limit foods I know are calorie dense but nutrient poor (e.g., cookies,
>cakes, bread, etc.) but I still enjoy them from time to time in moderation.
>From what I know of LC, this would not qualify as an LC diet (more like
>South Beach or Mediterranean, I suspect).


And if you were a lumberjacker working daily at an average of 7000
kcal a day, you would start slimming very fast and soon don¨'t have
energy at all to work on a diet of only 4000 kcal a day :)

Only office workers has that low energy expenditure.

Even home ladies had a bigger energy expenditure than that 100 years
ago when everything has to be done manually, unless the home was full
of servants doing all kinds of work for you.

With all helping aids in a home, the need for energy expenditure has
fallen radically. but diet hasn't changed at all, more probably has
increased in caloric intake, mostly because home life is boring when
machines are doing all kind of works for you, washing clothes,
dishwashing, vacuum cleaners clean the house etc. and when bored, you
need to chew something, like chocolate or sugar laden chewing gum :)
Or just as worse, sorbitol laden chewing gum which no person tell the
nutritonist they are chewing two or maybe five or more packets daily,
in addition to "sugar free" candies with maltose, dextrose, sorbitol,
mannitol etc. etc. as sweeteners, giving exactly as much kcal as
sugar, but who thinks about that. Not containing sugar, must be free
of calories, so why bother to tell the interviewer about that ?? :)
 
On 21 Feb 2006 17:54:18 -0800, "Doug Freyburger" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>the topic. Move into *forced* caloric restriction and it
>shows either utter lack of comprehension or dishonesty.


forced caloric restriction is only possible to do in a jail.

Many observations was done by Nazi doctors and researchers during 2.
WW in the camps where people was forced to eat as little as 100 kcal a
day, while being forced to work all day long in stone mines etc.
Unless you are an ignorant, results was quite obvious. Only those able
to steal food from others survived.
 
On 21 Feb 2006 18:53:02 -0800, "TC" <[email protected]> wrote:

>It is whether or not a mathematically calculated caloric deficit can be
>used in the real world to accurately predict a specific amount of fat
>loss and, conversely, whether a mathematically calculated caloric
>excess can accurately predict a specific amount of fat gain....... in
>all damned circumstances regardless of any other factors.


No, it can't. Thyroid hormones will do you a severe trick. When
starving, thyroid hormones decrease BMR. And thus, your experiment
fails.

But, PAL values are more less affected (the value you have to multiply
BMR with to get the observed daily energy expenditure)
 
On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 23:09:52 -0500, "Roger Zoul"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Good point. History speaks of many "well meaning" folks who did great harm.
>


Herostratos comes quickly to my mind :)
 
Dominic Shields wrote:
> On 23 Feb 2006 19:05:59 -0800, "TC" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> How do you know ? How can you be there to confirm that people do as they
> >> honestly (or dishonestly) claim they are doing ?

> >
> >I've done it and it ain't difficult. Actually it is quite easy.

>
> What ? You are there 24*7 checking what everyone on a diet eats ? Are you the
> supreme being ?


I've done it myself idiot. As in... I've counted my own calories and
easily restricted them to about 300 cals per day lower than the chart
says I need.

TC
 
GaryG wrote:
> "TC" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > GaryG wrote:
> > >
> > > Agreed...it's the sum of individual choices that leads to obesity. But,

> our
> > > modern jobs and conveniences, and the ready availability of calorie

> dense
> > > foods in massive portions has created an "obesogenic environment". When

> we
> > > lived without cars in cities, we would burn more calories each day

> through
> > > walking. When sodas were only sold in 6oz glass bottles, people didn't
> > > consume a quart per day. Way back when, a "New York bagel" only had

> about
> > > 150 calories...now it's closer to 400. Add up all those factors (and

> many
> > > more), and it's easy to see how we've created the conditions where a

> daily
> > > caloric surplus is the norm.
> > >
> > > GG

> >
> > Don't forget about the sum of corporate and govt choices that lead to
> > obesity. Adding sugars and hfcs to every food item that they process
> > and manufacture. And super-sizing meals which add gastly amounts of
> > carbs to a meal. And pushing all carbs as supposedly healthy because
> > they are "low in fat".
> >
> > HFCS consumption has risen dramatically since 1970. Perfectly in lock
> > step with the obesity and the diabetes and the cvd epidemics.
> >
> > Now tell us more about how the poor obese victim is responsible and the
> > food industry isn't.

>
> Nobody is holding a gun to the poor obese "victim's" head forcing them to
> order a triple-decker whopper with cheese and a 32 oz soda, instead of a
> chicken salad and mineral water. The obese "victim" is ultimately
> responsible for everything that they put into their mouth, as well as for
> their choice to sit on the couch watching TV every evening until 11pm.
>
> GG


Not all of them do. Some eat low fat rice cakes, low fat salad dressing
(with added sugar for flavour), low fat muffins, diet soda, etc etc.
But they still can lose weight.

TV
 
"Alf Christophersen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:p[email protected]...
> On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 18:04:48 -0800, "GaryG" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >As documented by the National Weight Control Registry project, most folks
> >who accomplish significant long-term weight loss success, also combine

their
> >dietary efforts with a fairly significant amount of exercise (around 3000
> >calories per week burned in exercise).

>
> 3000 ckal a week?? You didn't mean pr day?? 400 kcal a day is not
> much.


Exercising enough to burn 400 kcal/day is a significant challenge in terms
of time and/or intensity for many people.

For a 175 lb male, it would require walking about 4 miles (about 1 hr and 10
minutes at a fairly brisk 3.5 mph pace). You can burn calories faster if
you exercise with more intensity, but most out of shape people are incapable
of that.

GG

>
> Lumbers did use 8000 kcal a day, a mechanical worker in a car factory
> in elder days used about 4000 a day (around 1200 BMR). A farmer often
> exceed 5000 kcal.
>
> But, most people don't eat less than 3000-4000 kcal, they just don't
> dare to admit it.
> I once used a person as test for the Acticalc program for which I also
> had food intake data. There was very little connection btw. intake and
> expenditure in period of being very physically active. At active days,
> the person reported very low intake of food while often spending about
> 14000 kJ or more a day, and at same time reporting food intake of
> around 3000 kJ or less. Next day, the person often had a black day,
> reporting intake of more than 8000 kJ and expenditure down around 4000
> kJ. She increased weight in the testing period with about 2 kg. Most
> probably from increased drinking of water. (Unfortunately we didn't
> measure water intake and urine/sweat excretion which most probably
> would have explained the differences btw food intake and total
> expenditure for the 6 day long testing period.) By the way, none of
> the other persons observed did have such deviance btw. intake and
> expenditure.
>
 
On 24 Feb 2006 20:02:58 -0800, "TC" <[email protected]> wrote:

>> What ? You are there 24*7 checking what everyone on a diet eats ? Are you the
>> supreme being ?

>
>I've done it myself idiot. As in... I've counted my own calories and
>easily restricted them to about 300 cals per day lower than the chart
>says I need.


Ah - progress - so from that personal experience you conclude that this is a
universal truth ?
 
On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 22:52:19 -0800, "GaryG" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>For a 175 lb male, it would require walking about 4 miles (about 1 hr and 10
>minutes at a fairly brisk 3.5 mph pace). You can burn calories faster if
>you exercise with more intensity, but most out of shape people are incapable
>of that.


Or by helping your wife vacuum cleaning the house daily and perhaps
wash the ceiling weekly :) I guess you will sweat :)
 
On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 12:49:35 -0800, GaryG wrote in
<news:eek:[email protected]> on
sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet.low-carb :

> Well, I'm agnostic on the issue of low-carb. From what I've read, it can be
> a good diet strategy for some folks. Not because it allows your body to
> violate the laws of thermodynamics, but because it allows for "satiety". By
> feeling "satisifed" one eats less...less *calories*. I think this can be a
> prticularly effective strategy if : a) one's "problem foods" are carbs
> (e.g., bread, rice, etc.), and b) one is not engaged in endurance sports.


You hit the nail on the head. Satiety is key.
High-protein foods, for instance, are generally satiating, while food
and drinks containing added sugar are not.

But then, not all "low carb" meals are very satiating.
And some "high carb" foods can be quite satiating, especially when
they also are rich in fiber.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...uids=10435117&query_hl=16&itool=pubmed_docsum

Int J Food Sci Nutr. 1999 Jan;50(1):13-28. Related Articles, Links

The effects of high-carbohydrate vs high-fat breakfasts on
feelings of fullness and alertness, and subsequent food intake.

Holt SH, Delargy HJ, Lawton CL, Blundell JE.

Human Nutrition Unit, University of Sydney, NSW, Australia.

Fourteen subjects consumed four realistic isoenergetic (2035 kJ)
breakfasts, varying in macronutrient content (two fat-rich, two
carbohydrate-rich (low- and high-fibre)), in random order on separate
mornings. After breakfast, subjects left the laboratory and completed
appetite and alertness ratings at specific times and recorded all
subsequent fluid and food intake for the rest of the day. The
high-fibre, carbohydrate-rich breakfast was the least palatable but
most filling meal and was associated with less food intake during the
morning and at lunch. Hunger returned at a slower rate after this meal
than after the low-fibre, carbohydrate-rich meal. Both fat-rich
breakfasts were more palatable but less satiating than the
carbohydrate-rich meals and were followed by greater food intake
during the morning, which may be a compensatory response to ingest a
sufficient amount of food and/or carbohydrate to match the level of
fullness produced by the subjects' habitual breakfasts. By the end of
the day, the average total energy intake was significantly greater
after the fat-rich EB meal than after the high-fibre,
carbohydrate-rich meal (P < 0.05). Total day fat intakes were also
significantly greater when the high-fat breakfasts were eaten. For
every individual test, alertness ratings increased immediately after
breakfast was consumed. On average, the high-fibre carbohydrate-rich
meal was associated with the highest post-breakfast alertness ratings
and with the greatest cumulative amount of alertness during the period
between breakfast and lunch (AUC). Alertness AUC values up until lunch
correlated positively with fullness AUC values (r = 0.36, P < 0.01, n
= 56). The results confirm the relatively weak satiating power of
fat-rich meals observed in controlled laboratory-based studies and
indicate that a high-fibre, carbohydrate-rich breakfast may assist
weight control efforts by maintaining fullness. Further research is
required to determine whether satiety directly enhances alertness and
whether low-GI carbohydrate-rich meals enhance alertness to a greater
degree than high-GI meals.

Publication Types:

* Clinical Trial
* Randomized Controlled Trial


PMID: 10435117 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

X'Posted to: sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet.low-carb
 
On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 13:01:47 -0500, Susan wrote in
<news:[email protected]> on
sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet.low-carb :

>> http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/309/6955/655
>>
>> Controversies in Management: Dietary treatments for obesity are
>> ineffective
>> C S Wooley, D M Garner
>>
>> University of Cincinnati, College of Medicine, Cincinnati, Ohio 45267,
>> USA Beck Institute for Cognitive Therapy and Research, Bala Cynwood,
>> Pennsylvania 19001, USA Correspondence to: Dr Wooley.
>>
>> It is surprising that debate continues about the effectiveness of
>> dietary treatments for obesity. Perhaps this is partly related to
>> ambiguity in the term effectiveness. It is well known that most
>> treatments produce temporary weight loss. But it is equally well known
>> that 90% to 95% of those who lose weight regain it within several
>> years.1 This poor outcome has led to charges that traditional
>> treatments for obesity should be abandoned and countercharges that it
>> is irresponsible to withhold treatment for such a serious problem. The
>> failure of reducing diets to produce lasting improvement was recently
>> reiterated at a National Institutes of Health consensus conference,
>> which also warned about the adverse effects of treatment.2

>
> This is true of all weight loss plans, not just high carb. Weight loss
> maintenance is hard work, and obese people will never be just like other
> thin people. Recidivism and failure rates are no lower in low carbers.
>
> You don't seem to realize that the article argues against the position
> you've taken in recent weeks about failure rates. ALL weight loss is
> hard won and hard to maintain.

[...]

Besides, I believe that the faster the loss, the harder it is to
mantain.
If that is true, a fast weight loss is not what overweight people
should look for.

X'Posted to: sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet.low-carb
 
On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 07:02:23 -0800, GaryG wrote in
<news:%[email protected]> on
sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet.low-carb :

>> The low fat paradigm has gotten us to where we are today. Record levels
>> of obesity and obesity related disease.

>
> And sedentary office jobs, long commutes, and the availability of
> super-sized burgers and fries had nothing to do with it, eh?


I am not a fan of fast-food, but it must be said that you can
super-size virtually any dish, at home or restaurant, not just burgers
and fries.



X'Posted to: sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet.low-carb
 
On 24 Feb 2006 20:08:49 -0800, TC wrote in
<news:[email protected]> on
sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet.low-carb :

> Not all of them do. Some eat low fat rice cakes, low fat salad dressing
> (with added sugar for flavour), low fat muffins, diet soda, etc etc.
> But they still can lose weight.


Agreed. Hi-added sugar low-fat food doesn't make you slim.

X'Posted to: sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet.low-carb
 
On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 18:35:06 -0500, Roger Zoul wrote in
<news:[email protected]> on
sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet.low-carb :

> "TC" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...

[...]
>> Now that is a different case altogether from typical LCDs.
>>
>> The typical low cal diet that fails 90 to 95% of the time is LOW FAT.
>> You eat HIGH FAT and I presume LOW CARB, at least relatively speaking.

>
>> Then you are proving my point that restricting carbs are more important
>> than restricting fats.
>>

>
> Good grief....most of us here are LCers, TC. Do you really think we are
> debating that point? If so, you're a loon.


Also many non-LCers do not believe in low-fat. :)



X'Posted to: sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet.low-carb

--
Enrico C

* cut the ending "cut-togli.invalid" string when replying by email *
 
Enrico C wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 18:35:06 -0500, Roger Zoul wrote in
> <news:[email protected]> on
> sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet.low-carb :
>
> > "TC" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...

> [...]
> >> Now that is a different case altogether from typical LCDs.
> >>
> >> The typical low cal diet that fails 90 to 95% of the time is LOW FAT.
> >> You eat HIGH FAT and I presume LOW CARB, at least relatively speaking.

> >
> >> Then you are proving my point that restricting carbs are more important
> >> than restricting fats.
> >>

> >
> > Good grief....most of us here are LCers, TC. Do you really think we are
> > debating that point? If so, you're a loon.

>
> Also many non-LCers do not believe in low-fat. :)
>
>
>
> X'Posted to: sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet.low-carb
>
> --
> Enrico C


Not everyone in sci.med.nutrition agrees with low carb.

TC
 
"jbuch" <jbuch@CUT_HERE.revealed.net> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Roger Zoul wrote:
>> GaryG wrote:

>
>> :: And sedentary office jobs, long commutes, and the availability of
>> :: super-sized burgers and fries had nothing to do with it, eh?
>>
>> In a very real sense, no. See, being sedentary doesn't make you
>> overweight. A long commute doesn't make you overweight. The availability
>> of supersized burgers and fries doesn't make a person overweight. What
>> does? Eating too much food (and too many carbs, btw). Hence, one can be
>> sedentary, have a long commute, have supersized burgers and fries readily
>> at hand and still not be overweight.
>>
>> So one needs to ask why people eat more calories than they need because
>> if you're just not doing much, you don't need as much food to not be fat.
>>
>> Also, it is fundamentally wrong to blame overweight on fast food joints.
>> I can go to any supermarket and buy whatever I wish and make myself fat.
>> The issue goes much deeper and it is only the spread of misinformation to
>> promote these simple most obvious reasons for overweight.
>>
>>

>
> This reminds me of a wonderful modern marketing book I have.
>
>
> "Why People Buy Things They Don't Need : Understanding and Predicting
> Consumer Behavior"
> (Paperback)
> by Pamela Danziger
>
>
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/07...f=pd_bbs_1/103-3987709-1895857?_encoding=UTF8
>
> "Because they do need! That is the simple answer to a profoundly
> challenging question..."
>
>
> People don't NEED things as in NECESSARY like basic food and clothing are
> necessary, but $50 per pound luxury chocolate is not a NEED, but is a
> NEEDY thing.
>
> It is a NEEDY thing for people to feel good about themselves to have
> $50/lb chocolate because it .... proves something ... or other reasons.
>
> People NEED food to survive.
>
> People are NEEDY about food to cope with their lives.
>
> Much food is not food eaten for survival nutritional needs but for
> EMOTIONAL NEEDS. Lonely, frustrated, bored, habit,addicted,.....
>
> EMOTIONAL NEEDY EATING is a significant part of the modern obesity.
>
> There is other stuff important to obesity, of course.
>
> EMOTIONAL NEEDS and COMFORT FOODS ..... are in the same corner in the
> boxing ring for the "weight control championship".
>
> Often, the winner in the "Weight Control Battle" is:
> . . . . "Emotional Needy Eating".
>
> Maybe the secret champion of "Weight Control Battle" is the emotional
> environment of the society.
>
> ---------------------------
>
> Gotta run, no time, I need a McDonald's as my energy level is low from all
> of this thinking and anxiety ........... Wash it down with a 46 Oz Big
> Gulp sugared soft drink and I'm set for the afternoon ................


:)
 
TC wrote:
> Enrico C wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 18:35:06 -0500, Roger Zoul wrote in
>><news:[email protected]> on
>>sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet.low-carb :
>>
>>
>>>"TC" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...

>>
>>[...]
>>
>>>>Now that is a different case altogether from typical LCDs.
>>>>
>>>>The typical low cal diet that fails 90 to 95% of the time is LOW FAT.
>>>>You eat HIGH FAT and I presume LOW CARB, at least relatively speaking.
>>>
>>>>Then you are proving my point that restricting carbs are more important
>>>>than restricting fats.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Good grief....most of us here are LCers, TC. Do you really think we are
>>>debating that point? If so, you're a loon.

>>
>>Also many non-LCers do not believe in low-fat. :)
>>
>>
>>
>>X'Posted to: sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet.low-carb
>>
>>--
>>Enrico C

>
>
> Not everyone in sci.med.nutrition agrees with low carb.
>
> TC
>


Not everybody in sci.med.nutrition agrees with the concept of Jesus either.

--
1) Eat Till SATISFIED, Not STUFFED... Atkins repeated 9 times in the book
2) Exercise: It's Non-Negotiable..... Chapter 22 title, Atkins book
3) Don't Diet Without Supplimental Nutrients... Chapter 23 title, Atkins
book
4) A sensible eating plan, and follow it. (Atkins, Self Made or Other)
 
On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 21:01:51 +0100, Enrico C
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Besides, I believe that the faster the loss, the harder it is to
>mantain.
>If that is true, a fast weight loss is not what overweight people
>should look for.


Only if it is water you did loose (that's what people are loosing)

I really did slim, and used 8 month slowly increasing weight after my
superslimming episode falling in 5 days from 94kg to 74kg (after water
refill intravenously)