Threshold Power Intervals on the trainer
- Thread starter Atsic
- Start date
So long hours in the saddle was wrong? Amazing. Don't forget, this was back in the 80s when 120 miles in the rain was the way to do it. Wish I'd had a power meter back then.Jono L said:If you did them properly, and they were well structured into your program then you would not have been wasting time.
I think he was saying that if you'd done them properly - ie not twiddling mini-me gears with legs spinning like bees wings, then getting in quality miles over many hours can be beneficial.grahamspringett said:
Not quite,grahamspringett said:
Long rides, in this case say 4-6 hours, just like any form of training are great if you do them at the right intensity, the right amount of times during a training cycle and at the right time of the year depending on your specific races etc.
2x20 is a waste of time if you don't do it hard enough, same goes for a 5 hour ride. Problem is a lot of people equate long ride to mean easy ride, but that is far from the mark.
In my opinion, there's nothing like going out and jamming 5000 cals, not worrying about intervals just finding a nice loop or set of hills and putting the blinkers on and riding, hard, like sweet spot training if you had unlimited time, in my personal experience it put my threshold up a few notches before doing any threshold specific work
All the training level in my honest opinion must be used. And of course is foundamental the periodisation of the training, that must have different target in tifferent period of the year. The long training session are for sure useful and can be more or less useful depending on the kind of racing that the cyclist is going to do. For istance, it will be for sure more useful for someone that make long races than for someone that usually race only in the criteriums of 70-80 kms.
Anyway is really important also the time spended in others training levels, everything, as i told before, will be calibrated specifically on the own targets. For me the long training session are only partially useful.
Anyway is really important also the time spended in others training levels, everything, as i told before, will be calibrated specifically on the own targets. For me the long training session are only partially useful.
If you can show me anywhere in NSW where I can get 120 miles' worth of rain I'll join you! I've only been in Oz 9 years, I grew up in the UK.Jono L said:120 miles in the rain is the way to do it
I wish I could do long endurance rides, but many people on this forum are workers, many with family, and 8-12 hours a week is the limit. That's where 2x20s, indoor trainers and PMs come in very handy. My 100km Saturday rides are pretty full-on - that's all my leave pass allows though!
there's something very appealing in spending time and effort in trying to develop over as many critical power points as possible. Should be seen as a fun game, not as a blinded dive into "no man's land"Atsic said:
Of course! We are not professional rider, so is the only way to train correctly is to intend everything as a game. For me it cannot be different, my life is too much stressed going from the hospital wards to the book and again back and again on the book. I use the free time just to eat sometime... and of course to ride in the evening instead of the TV or Internet. So it's an advice that i accept completely!SolarEnergy said:there's something very appealing in spending time and effort in trying to develop over as many critical power points as possible. Should be seen as a fun game, not as a blinded dive into "no man's land"
Speaking of "no mans land" this thread has brought up the idea of keeping breaks during intervals less than 30's but l was wondering does this include AWC?
l have been working on my top end for a few weeks now, and on a few of my training rides that have rollers l've been hitting them in the big ring, the ON periods at the start are deep into L6 & above 30's and the rest periods have been < 30's but after looking through the pt file l see that through out the interval some of the on periods were between 20-30's.
My question is; because the start of the int was longer than 30's and all of the rest periods are less than 30's can some of on periods during the int be less than 30's and still contribute to increasing AWC, hypertrophy/fast twitch fibers and or contribute to inreasing V02 max as the length of the int usually exceeds 2.5-3min.
Surly it is doing something because my top end is now smokin and recovery afterwards is super fast, l can be recovered and back into L4 in no time.
l have been working on my top end for a few weeks now, and on a few of my training rides that have rollers l've been hitting them in the big ring, the ON periods at the start are deep into L6 & above 30's and the rest periods have been < 30's but after looking through the pt file l see that through out the interval some of the on periods were between 20-30's.
My question is; because the start of the int was longer than 30's and all of the rest periods are less than 30's can some of on periods during the int be less than 30's and still contribute to increasing AWC, hypertrophy/fast twitch fibers and or contribute to inreasing V02 max as the length of the int usually exceeds 2.5-3min.
Surly it is doing something because my top end is now smokin and recovery afterwards is super fast, l can be recovered and back into L4 in no time.
If your question relates to anaerobic capacity defined as max O2 deficit, ability to produce and accumulate highest level of lactate for longest period of time without slowing down, then not sure I'd see an immediate benefit in splitting these intervals (other than quest for event related specificity). Basically, pushing hard without reaching (or getting very close to) exhaustion will result into O2 deficit to drop and lactate levels (or hydrogen ions whatever) to drop as well. Sure if you keep the rest short then on the next bout you may reach exhaustion but..bubsy said:
A simpler solution is to hold on pass 30s on, until 45 to 60s, even 90s. Then it's almost garantee that if your anaerobic metabolism is operating at a rate high enough, you will meet your target. Burn a full match, take a 1-2 minute brake or even longer then burn another. It is the fact of struggling not to slow down that will really be beneficial.
Now to answer your question, as long as you feel the struggle to hold on to the L6, you're being productive. But again, simpler impulses may trigger sharper responses. The rest, the splits and mixing all this with some other things, is an art. You seems to be doing ok on that side. Somehow, L6 is to anaerobic metabolism what L4 is to aerobic metabolism. Capacity to utilize and tolerate lactate while maintaining sustainable breathing rate. Switching from L6 down to lower L4 then upper L4 can sound like fun play if you see any benefit to it. If your events call for this then no doubt it becomes important.
Taking too much rest between "on" periods that are kept too short might result into making all of them somehow too easy to book. That wouldn't be good.
Some can stand up to 2min or even little longer, depending on natural ability to produce, utilize and tolerate lactate. But hell are these tough. They call for sufficient recovery (active). And they can pump a lot of sugar out of the system too. So days after, high octane fuel might simply be too low for good quality work to take place.
*edit
I had missed an interesting bit in your question. L6 as a means of increasing Vo2Max, well if you refer to power at Vo2Max, capacity to stay there at that level, increased ability at L6 might help, or might harm. Specificity says that if you spend too much weekly time at L6, you may be neglecting maintaining L5. In this case it may harm. On the other hand, a better AC tank should in theory help finishing L5 segments harder. When Vo2Max is reached, persisting into the effort will lead to O2 deficit etc. Then logically, trained AWC should buy you some time. After that though, you're left with what you're left with
Thanks Solar,
You have made some interesting points and first l'll add that these sessions are a kind of do it all L3/4/5/6.
l have been riding this course for about 3 wks when fresh 1-2 times/wk and break it down into sections the rollers are the hardest part to fit in but done this way are def the most fun part of the ride, so once their done a short rest and a section of road allows for smooth sailing which is done @ 100-105% for 10-12min, than another short break and 2 climbs 3-6min done @ 110-120%.
As for the rollers this course is one part of a series of rr so at the very least it is giving me a mental edge.
As far as structured training goes l've just finished 4mths of pure L4 200-250min p/wk between 93-96%,
followed by 4wks of L5 30-40m wk @ 110-120% with sst done the day after.
Right now l am 3 wks into a block of L6, which l have never done more than 2 wks of nor have l done them with such a huge base behind me so l'm kinda experimenting at this point,
l have been doing dedicaticed interval days at 130-160% 45's, 60's, 90's, and a few at 2min followed by some tempo/sst the next day,
then l'll rest for a day or 2 and do the course with the rollers with the main focus at this point to get some quallity L6 done early in the ride as well as some time at V02 and threshold so at very least to maintain what l have gained there.
lt is quite a juggling act l must admit but the results so far have been nothing short of amazing and as l said in my previous post my top end has improved tremendously,
l haven't noticed huge gains in the power that l can sustain @ L6 just yet but the reapeatability of the efforts is awsome and l am wondering how long should l focus on L6 before just maintaining what l have built.
You have made some interesting points and first l'll add that these sessions are a kind of do it all L3/4/5/6.
l have been riding this course for about 3 wks when fresh 1-2 times/wk and break it down into sections the rollers are the hardest part to fit in but done this way are def the most fun part of the ride, so once their done a short rest and a section of road allows for smooth sailing which is done @ 100-105% for 10-12min, than another short break and 2 climbs 3-6min done @ 110-120%.
As for the rollers this course is one part of a series of rr so at the very least it is giving me a mental edge.
As far as structured training goes l've just finished 4mths of pure L4 200-250min p/wk between 93-96%,
followed by 4wks of L5 30-40m wk @ 110-120% with sst done the day after.
Right now l am 3 wks into a block of L6, which l have never done more than 2 wks of nor have l done them with such a huge base behind me so l'm kinda experimenting at this point,
l have been doing dedicaticed interval days at 130-160% 45's, 60's, 90's, and a few at 2min followed by some tempo/sst the next day,
then l'll rest for a day or 2 and do the course with the rollers with the main focus at this point to get some quallity L6 done early in the ride as well as some time at V02 and threshold so at very least to maintain what l have gained there.
lt is quite a juggling act l must admit but the results so far have been nothing short of amazing and as l said in my previous post my top end has improved tremendously,
l haven't noticed huge gains in the power that l can sustain @ L6 just yet but the reapeatability of the efforts is awsome and l am wondering how long should l focus on L6 before just maintaining what l have built.
Awesome. So many things that you're doing right.
First and foremost, you tailor your plan around the specifics of a course on which you later race. And you're finding ways to have fun.
Second, you seems to distinguish between focussed development work where bouts are well measured and simpler from "integration" kind of work where you test feeling of one after the other etc. I think the two approaches are important, although like you seem to be doing, it's good to favor one over the other depending on time of year.
Other interesting analysis could probably be made about your pacing strategies, for cases you may want to test yourself on the course. You could, if you wish, gather a lot of very useful tips on this by reading and following Alex Simmons' works on the topic. He is a coach available through this site if I'm not mistaken.
As long as I can remember, they made very interesting research on file analysis in regard to pacing strategies. Some quest to get better speed given effort and power distribution over varying courses (I may be partly wrong though, anyway check that out).
Another fun and very simple way to optimize pacing strategies, since you're often training on the same course, is to keep and eye and try to maximize avg speed or set time based goals. I know avg speed has lost a lot of its appeal since apparition of power, but it is still an important component of racing.
May not be sole focus on avg speed, which kind of turn a session into a TT session, but measuring avg over an L4 segment, timing a strategic climb, that sort of thing.
Otherwise I guess your next challenge planning wise, is to find ways to get on top of the form when you need it. You seem to have natural ability to to think for the future. You'll probably need now to pay attention to how to taper the right way at the right time.
Extensive prolonged periods of work at L5 L6 are sometimes believed to trigger unexpected peaks, often followed by few weeks not being sharp.
First and foremost, you tailor your plan around the specifics of a course on which you later race. And you're finding ways to have fun.
Second, you seems to distinguish between focussed development work where bouts are well measured and simpler from "integration" kind of work where you test feeling of one after the other etc. I think the two approaches are important, although like you seem to be doing, it's good to favor one over the other depending on time of year.
Other interesting analysis could probably be made about your pacing strategies, for cases you may want to test yourself on the course. You could, if you wish, gather a lot of very useful tips on this by reading and following Alex Simmons' works on the topic. He is a coach available through this site if I'm not mistaken.
As long as I can remember, they made very interesting research on file analysis in regard to pacing strategies. Some quest to get better speed given effort and power distribution over varying courses (I may be partly wrong though, anyway check that out).
Another fun and very simple way to optimize pacing strategies, since you're often training on the same course, is to keep and eye and try to maximize avg speed or set time based goals. I know avg speed has lost a lot of its appeal since apparition of power, but it is still an important component of racing.
May not be sole focus on avg speed, which kind of turn a session into a TT session, but measuring avg over an L4 segment, timing a strategic climb, that sort of thing.
Otherwise I guess your next challenge planning wise, is to find ways to get on top of the form when you need it. You seem to have natural ability to to think for the future. You'll probably need now to pay attention to how to taper the right way at the right time.
Extensive prolonged periods of work at L5 L6 are sometimes believed to trigger unexpected peaks, often followed by few weeks not being sharp.
Atsic sorry for the thread highjack l can start another thread if you like as this really has nothing to do with intervals on a trainer.
having done 20min L6 for the week l am happy with that and decide l'm due to take a couple days off and use it as a trial run to try and peak for an A race in about 8 wks.
Thur: 4min L6 which l abort the mission and ride 30min tempo home.
Fri: off.
Sat: 15min blast around the block to open the legs up.
Sun: 3.25hrs L3/4/5/6 which l break several pb's incl 3 & 5min and match 5min again during ride, decide tom will be a 2hr tempo ride so l empty the tank and do 3x45's @ 160% to finish off the session.
Mon: set out to ride tempo but during warm-up l see something is up! cadence is high 105-110rpm which is normal during warmup but power is reading unsually high and my first thought is pt needs to be zeroed,
speed is a little high for this sec of road but l figure the tailwind is a little stronger than l first thought so l get to the point where am about to settle in and l zero pt,
so off we go and once again the power reading is off the chart cadence is still very high 100-105rpm and feels unusually comfortable usually prefer 90-95rpm esp when legs are a little fatigued,
so after 10min l'm sitting @95% of FT and barly breaking a sweat so l'm sure pt is still off, l coast for 30's and let the pt zero, then wind up once again with same result, it just feels too easy after hammering myself yesterday.
So l get to a point on the road where it gets steep and l know what gear at what cad will give me a pretty acurate power reading and to my surprise we don't get to that gear l am 2 teeth taller and spining my **** off and now at 110% of FT and l realise the pt is fine and l am freakin flying so l just go with it but back off to 105%, at the 20mim mark l check the avg power and realise l am on track to break my 30min pb so l can't resist the urge to drop cad down and up the power but within 60's the legs start to feel really heavy so l ease back to ~100% and keep the cad high for the next 20min,
all the time l am barely breaking a sweat and hardly breathing like l'm @ 100%.
l rest up and do another 30min @ ~95% then go home completly baffled as to why l was able to match my 30m pb after totally destroying myself the day before.
My guess is that l def hit an unplanned peak on Monday but it would be nice to have the fresh legs l had on Sunday with the freaky aerobic engine l had on Monday.
So l take
Tue: off.
Wed: l hit the course with rollers again for L3/4/5/6 with much the same result as sunday very happy again.
Thurs: off.
Fri: (today) off.
Now l have some time up my sleve before my A race so l have gone back through the last 2wks pt files and will repeat the last 10 days sessions only moving the aborted Wed L6 session forward 1 day followed by a rest day than an opener ride with some good 3m bursts at V02 and maybe 2 x 30's at 130-140% than hit the course with rollers again the following day and see what happens?
Now that statement has brought up something that has me baffled l'll go back to last Thursday where l start off an L6 session and halfway through l realise l am just not up to it so l pull the pin and just ride tempo back home,SolarEnergy said:
having done 20min L6 for the week l am happy with that and decide l'm due to take a couple days off and use it as a trial run to try and peak for an A race in about 8 wks.
Thur: 4min L6 which l abort the mission and ride 30min tempo home.
Fri: off.
Sat: 15min blast around the block to open the legs up.
Sun: 3.25hrs L3/4/5/6 which l break several pb's incl 3 & 5min and match 5min again during ride, decide tom will be a 2hr tempo ride so l empty the tank and do 3x45's @ 160% to finish off the session.
Mon: set out to ride tempo but during warm-up l see something is up! cadence is high 105-110rpm which is normal during warmup but power is reading unsually high and my first thought is pt needs to be zeroed,
speed is a little high for this sec of road but l figure the tailwind is a little stronger than l first thought so l get to the point where am about to settle in and l zero pt,
so off we go and once again the power reading is off the chart cadence is still very high 100-105rpm and feels unusually comfortable usually prefer 90-95rpm esp when legs are a little fatigued,
so after 10min l'm sitting @95% of FT and barly breaking a sweat so l'm sure pt is still off, l coast for 30's and let the pt zero, then wind up once again with same result, it just feels too easy after hammering myself yesterday.
So l get to a point on the road where it gets steep and l know what gear at what cad will give me a pretty acurate power reading and to my surprise we don't get to that gear l am 2 teeth taller and spining my **** off and now at 110% of FT and l realise the pt is fine and l am freakin flying so l just go with it but back off to 105%, at the 20mim mark l check the avg power and realise l am on track to break my 30min pb so l can't resist the urge to drop cad down and up the power but within 60's the legs start to feel really heavy so l ease back to ~100% and keep the cad high for the next 20min,
all the time l am barely breaking a sweat and hardly breathing like l'm @ 100%.
l rest up and do another 30min @ ~95% then go home completly baffled as to why l was able to match my 30m pb after totally destroying myself the day before.
My guess is that l def hit an unplanned peak on Monday but it would be nice to have the fresh legs l had on Sunday with the freaky aerobic engine l had on Monday.
So l take
Tue: off.
Wed: l hit the course with rollers again for L3/4/5/6 with much the same result as sunday very happy again.
Thurs: off.
Fri: (today) off.
Now l have some time up my sleve before my A race so l have gone back through the last 2wks pt files and will repeat the last 10 days sessions only moving the aborted Wed L6 session forward 1 day followed by a rest day than an opener ride with some good 3m bursts at V02 and maybe 2 x 30's at 130-140% than hit the course with rollers again the following day and see what happens?
Thanks rmur for jumping in. Please do take over from there if you have time for teaching PMC analysis (you or any other power specialists. I feel kind of outdated on this aspect).
in the mean time
So keep an eye on CTL, don't let it drop too early into the competition season. Maintain it (keep depositing into it) at all costs until it's time to model a nice peak out of it (until it's time to withdraw out of it). L6 (and to a large extent, L5) isn't likely to contribute to CTL maintenance. It can be seen as a withdraw out of it to
- invest into your ability to perform at this level
- sharpen your knife to better be able to slice into your goals (achieve sharper peaks)
Your attitude to tempo ride after this sort of workout is a good one, by re-inflating some highly aerobic component while reinvesting into CTL
Leg openers like you call them are mandatory for me as well. Tough works followed by days off have the consequence of bringing my system down. I always need at least a day of traininig (fresh legs, but system down) before being able to really push. To me, this is a very important component in building efficient microcycles.
An easy day after tough days, the benefits don't appear as clear to me. However an easy day after 2 days of and prior a test, absolutely mandatory.
in the mean time
getting into a season with carefully maintained high CTL allows for sustained performance levels that can definitely span across more than one day. Withtout CTL, you are unlikely to be able to do this.
So keep an eye on CTL, don't let it drop too early into the competition season. Maintain it (keep depositing into it) at all costs until it's time to model a nice peak out of it (until it's time to withdraw out of it). L6 (and to a large extent, L5) isn't likely to contribute to CTL maintenance. It can be seen as a withdraw out of it to
- invest into your ability to perform at this level
- sharpen your knife to better be able to slice into your goals (achieve sharper peaks)
Your attitude to tempo ride after this sort of workout is a good one, by re-inflating some highly aerobic component while reinvesting into CTL
there goes an other interesting concept here.
Leg openers like you call them are mandatory for me as well. Tough works followed by days off have the consequence of bringing my system down. I always need at least a day of traininig (fresh legs, but system down) before being able to really push. To me, this is a very important component in building efficient microcycles.
An easy day after tough days, the benefits don't appear as clear to me. However an easy day after 2 days of and prior a test, absolutely mandatory.
then I am kind of wondering why you would take friday off (that adds up to 3 days off over 4. not good for CTL). I guess that's because weekend is probably going to be fairly busy?
Ok first up, no l'm not using WKO (l know l know l can hear the softwear junkies shrieking) but l have used it for a breif period and l did think it useful and planed to get a copy but kept putting it of and never got around to it.
Now l have gone back through files to when l started my block of V02 and l can see a distinct trend starting to form, not as pronounced as it was on monday but reading the comments l made about each of the days following a V02 session it is clear that l ride very well after a hard day with a fair bit of V02 but it is far more pronounced after L6.
Secondly Solar l took the 2 days off because after the second day out on the course with the rollers l was starting to feel quite a bit of leg fatigue towards the end of the ride, after all the intensity with the last 3 rides l know when l am starting to dig myself a hole.
Even though l only rode 3 days, if l calculate TSS for those rides based on ave power not normalised power this gives me a total of 620 TSS for the week which is more than enough given the intensity, and each week l accumalate between 600 and 850 TSS which is what most people seem to be able to maintain or increase their CTL with.
Thirdly l did a dedicated L6 session yesty which went extremly well being fresh from 2 days off, but it started to rain after 7mins worth of L6,
so hammered home @ ~ 105% for 9min and called it quits.
Today l was still quite fresh so an L4 session it was to be and BINGO l avg 266w for 2hrs with good legs/lungs and really didn't feel as though l was at my limits it was hard towards the end but l only had 150cals with me and a small amount of caffine which wore off after 90min so the last 30min was tuff mentally but by no means was l at my limmits although l'd say very close but felt quite well afterwards and didn't fell like death so l am shure there was fair bit left in the tank.
Which means by that by that analysis my FT has increased again l had it pegged at 285-290w,
but now considder myself in the 300w FTP club GOODY!!! about time.
Also solar l have been timming myself up the climbs for a while now and have knocked 55s off the main 6min climb of the couse since december and a change in pacing was def part of that.
Ok l will stopp rambling now and give this thread back to its rightful owner
Thanks too everyone for there input it has been a good read,
Thankyou to you Solar your input has been more than helpful.
Now l have gone back through files to when l started my block of V02 and l can see a distinct trend starting to form, not as pronounced as it was on monday but reading the comments l made about each of the days following a V02 session it is clear that l ride very well after a hard day with a fair bit of V02 but it is far more pronounced after L6.
Secondly Solar l took the 2 days off because after the second day out on the course with the rollers l was starting to feel quite a bit of leg fatigue towards the end of the ride, after all the intensity with the last 3 rides l know when l am starting to dig myself a hole.
Even though l only rode 3 days, if l calculate TSS for those rides based on ave power not normalised power this gives me a total of 620 TSS for the week which is more than enough given the intensity, and each week l accumalate between 600 and 850 TSS which is what most people seem to be able to maintain or increase their CTL with.
Thirdly l did a dedicated L6 session yesty which went extremly well being fresh from 2 days off, but it started to rain after 7mins worth of L6,
so hammered home @ ~ 105% for 9min and called it quits.
Today l was still quite fresh so an L4 session it was to be and BINGO l avg 266w for 2hrs with good legs/lungs and really didn't feel as though l was at my limits it was hard towards the end but l only had 150cals with me and a small amount of caffine which wore off after 90min so the last 30min was tuff mentally but by no means was l at my limmits although l'd say very close but felt quite well afterwards and didn't fell like death so l am shure there was fair bit left in the tank.
Which means by that by that analysis my FT has increased again l had it pegged at 285-290w,
but now considder myself in the 300w FTP club
GOODY!!! about time.Also solar l have been timming myself up the climbs for a while now and have knocked 55s off the main 6min climb of the couse since december and a change in pacing was def part of that.
Ok l will stopp rambling now and give this thread back to its rightful owner
Thanks too everyone for there input it has been a good read,
Thankyou to you Solar your input has been more than helpful.
Great! Congratulations!bubsy said:but now considder myself in the 300w FTP club
Like I said, we could probably use a lot of what you do for quoting as how things should be done. Results confirm it.
However, you should consider starting building PMC chart, using wko or not.
I am from old school, so I trust your approach a lot (that's the only one I can master at the moment anyway). All that PMC is doing is to quantify something that had always been there and had to be dealt with anyway, but production of PMC chart can be very useful to confirm or question trends.
That's 100$ well spent.
Enjoy your season!
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