Tie and solder: any alternatives to DT pre-tinned wire?

[[email protected]]

Mike Anderson writes:

> I am looking for an alternative to DT Proline pre-tinned wire.

> I would like to try tying and soldering for practice. I know that DT
> sells wire and solder, but it is pricey. Are there suitable items
> available? I would like to find an alternative that is as easy to
> yank as the DT wire. I will use the knot-free method.

> I know the question of tie and solder have been discussed many
> times. I am just looking for a more economical pre-tinned wire
> regardless if the method is useful or not.

You didn't say why you want to undertake this tedious chore. I hope
you are aware that measurements were made on hand built wheels
furnished by Wheelsmith before and after tying and soldering to prove
that there was no possible structural effect from this process.

John Starley invented cross laced spoking on high wheelers so that he
could tie spokes at crossing points to prevent them from causing a
header when they broke. That was the initial purpose of cross lacing
spokes, so that they could be tied together. Shortly after that
Renold showed Starley his bicycle chain and the chain driven bicycle of
today was born.

Wheel builders were furious that he made tying spokes unnecessary so
they began using wire and soldering them to convince people that this
made their wheels "stronger" without showing the need for that
strength or how it could affect durability. They got so good a
telling these fables that 100 years passed without a real challenge to
the concept. It was pure faith... "why would they lie to me?" Well,
in fact the art was so old that the purveyors believed it themselves.

I assure you that there is nothing to it, except that replacing a
broken spoke becomes more difficult. I've seen it done back when this
was a common practice.

Jobst Brandt

 

[jim beam]

mike anderson wrote:
> I am looking for an alternative to DT Proline pre-tinned wire.
>
> I would like to try tying and soldering for practice. I know that DT
> sells wire and solder, but it is pricey. Are there suitable items
> available? I would like to find an alternative that is as easy to yank
> as the DT wire. I will use the knot-free method.
>
> I know the question of tie and solder have been discussed many times. I
> am just looking for a more economical pre-tinned wire regardless if the
> method is useful or not.
>
> Any help would be most appreciated,
> mike
>
> ----
> email: sbREMOVE46 @ bigREMOVEfoot . com
> remove REMOVE
>

it's just a soldering exercise. find a seller of whatever gauge wire
you want [i believe d.t. is 0.4mm] and go from there. it doesn't need
to be tinned. if you use stainless, it'll be the same as the spokes and
the acid flux you'll use will work very nicely.

 

[jim beam]

[email protected] wrote:
> Mike Anderson writes:
>
>
>>I am looking for an alternative to DT Proline pre-tinned wire.
>
>
>>I would like to try tying and soldering for practice. I know that DT
>>sells wire and solder, but it is pricey. Are there suitable items
>>available? I would like to find an alternative that is as easy to
>>yank as the DT wire. I will use the knot-free method.
>
>
>>I know the question of tie and solder have been discussed many
>>times. I am just looking for a more economical pre-tinned wire
>>regardless if the method is useful or not.
>
>
> You didn't say why you want to undertake this tedious chore. I hope
> you are aware that measurements were made on hand built wheels
> furnished by Wheelsmith before and after tying and soldering to prove
> that there was no possible structural effect from this process.
>
> John Starley invented cross laced spoking on high wheelers so that he
> could tie spokes at crossing points to prevent them from causing a
> header when they broke. That was the initial purpose of cross lacing
> spokes, so that they could be tied together. Shortly after that
> Renold showed Starley his bicycle chain and the chain driven bicycle of
> today was born.
>
> Wheel builders were furious that he made tying spokes unnecessary so
> they began using wire and soldering them to convince people that this
> made their wheels "stronger" without showing the need for that
> strength or how it could affect durability. They got so good a
> telling these fables that 100 years passed without a real challenge to
> the concept. It was pure faith... "why would they lie to me?" Well,
> in fact the art was so old that the purveyors believed it themselves.
>
> I assure you that there is nothing to it, except that replacing a
> broken spoke becomes more difficult. I've seen it done back when this
> was a common practice.
>
> Jobst Brandt

all this from the guy that says the interlacing of spokes is beneficial....

don't worry about the logical disconnect folks - normal service will be
resumed shortly.

 

[Werehatrack]

On Mon, 14 Nov 2005 02:42:45 -0500, mike anderson
<[email protected]> wrote:

>I am looking for an alternative to DT Proline pre-tinned wire.

Try an arts and crafts supply store, or look for tinned magnet wire at
an electronics supply house. It really doesn't have to be steel wire,
you know; the tying and soldering has no structural effect on the
wheel, so use whatever you want.

>I would like to try tying and soldering for practice.

I'll assume that this is essentially an academic exercise; why not
pursue it on something where the downside (making it hard to replace a
spoke) isn't a factor?

>I know that DT
>sells wire and solder, but it is pricey. Are there suitable items
>available? I would like to find an alternative that is as easy to yank
>as the DT wire. I will use the knot-free method.

Having never dealt with the DT, I have no comparison to provide, but
from experience in other fields, if the solder adheres properly, you
should not be able to easily strip the joint without applying heat
unless the wire guage is fairly large and the solder coverage is
scant. If it's possible to do so with small-guage wire, then you had
a cold joint, and didn't get a good bond anyway...in which case, what
was the point? If the guage of the wire is large and the solder is
applie sparingly, it's often possible to unwind the joint without
heating even with ordinary copper wire (from about 20AWG up, at least)
as long as a tip is accessible to grab with pliers. For what you
propose to do, then, I see no reason not to simply use some 20 or 18
guage bare copper. It takes the solder as readily as you're likely to
want. Tinned copper is widely available, however, and is even easier
to deal with for this. "Beekeepers wire", which is tinned iron, is
available at many farm and ranch supply houses, and would work just as
well. Small-guage electric fencing wire might also work; it's
available from the same places.

>I know the question of tie and solder have been discussed many times. I
>am just looking for a more economical pre-tinned wire regardless if the
>method is useful or not.

As noted, there are sources for tinned small-guage wire outside the
world of bikes. Bike suppliers have largely discontinued supplying it
because there is effectively no demand for it anymore...with good
reason. If you're just trying to recreate a museum piece, though, the
materials can be had readily enough with a little poking around.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

 

[David L. Johnson]

On Mon, 14 Nov 2005 02:42:45 -0500, mike anderson wrote:

> I know the question of tie and solder have been discussed many times. I
> am just looking for a more economical pre-tinned wire regardless if the
> method is useful or not.

You don't need a pre-tinned wire. Why do you think you do?

--

David L. Johnson

__o | The lottery is a tax on those who fail to understand
_`\(,_ | mathematics.
(_)/ (_) |

 

[mike anderson]

I am looking for an alternative to DT Proline pre-tinned wire.

I would like to try tying and soldering for practice. I know that DT
sells wire and solder, but it is pricey. Are there suitable items
available? I would like to find an alternative that is as easy to yank
as the DT wire. I will use the knot-free method.

I know the question of tie and solder have been discussed many times. I
am just looking for a more economical pre-tinned wire regardless if the
method is useful or not.

Any help would be most appreciated,
mike

----
email: sbREMOVE46 @ bigREMOVEfoot . com
remove REMOVE

 

[Calvin Jones]

One alternative that will allow excellent bragging rights is kevlar
thread. This is available in better fabric stores and even some
fly-fishing shops. A drop of super-glue per wrap will ensure it does
not unwrap.

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

mike anderson wrote:
> I am looking for an alternative to DT Proline pre-tinned wire.
>
> I would like to try tying and soldering for practice. I know that DT
> sells wire and solder, but it is pricey. Are there suitable items
> available? I would like to find an alternative that is as easy to yank
> as the DT wire. I will use the knot-free method.
>
> I know the question of tie and solder have been discussed many times. I
> am just looking for a more economical pre-tinned wire regardless if the
> method is useful or not.
>
> Any help would be most appreciated,
> mike

The DT stuff, also available from Quality Bike Parts, is all I have
seen. Also called 'bee keepers wire'....now lessee, how long before
Jobst........SECOND POST!!!

Way to stay predictable Jobst!!

 

[amakyonin]

Kevlar is so old school. You aren't with it unless you are tying your
spokes with carbon fiber thread and fixing them with epoxy. This is
preferably done on a 10 paired spoke wheel. This makes the spoke
crossings more aero.

 

[Jay Beattie]

"mike anderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:2005111402424516807%seeunderneath@mypostcom...
> I am looking for an alternative to DT Proline pre-tinned wire.
>
> I would like to try tying and soldering for practice. I know
that DT
> sells wire and solder, but it is pricey. Are there suitable
items
> available? I would like to find an alternative that is as easy
to yank
> as the DT wire. I will use the knot-free method.
>
> I know the question of tie and solder have been discussed many
times. I
> am just looking for a more economical pre-tinned wire
regardless if the
> method is useful or not.
>
> Any help would be most appreciated,

If you are just doing it for soldering practice, I would suggest
building a little 6 watt tube amp and doing point to point
wiring. At least you will end up with something fun to listen
to.

But if you must tie and solder wheels, scavenge some old T.V.
twin lead and strip out the copper wire. Use that, and then buy
some silver bearing solder -- like they use for stainless steel
and food service equipment. It will be sold with appropriate
liquid flux at your local welding store. This type of solder
will polish up, and your little ties-and-solders will look like
jewelry. You will need a really high wattage soldering iron. I
used to use a propane torch. I gave this up years ago, though --
and not because of the Book or the haranguing I received from
Jobst. I just have so many other things to do, and it did not
seem to make much of a difference, if any. -- Jay Beattie.

 

[Mike Kaiser]

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:

>'....now lessee, how long before
> Jobst........SECOND POST!!!
>
> Way to stay predictable Jobst!!

.....now lessee, how long before Jobst's stalker........THIRD POST!!!!!

 

[[email protected]]

On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 19:52:08 -0800, jim beam <[email protected]>
wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>> Mike Anderson writes:
>
[snip the usual tied & soldered stuff]
>
>all this from the guy that says the interlacing of spokes is beneficial....
>
>don't worry about the logical disconnect folks - normal service will be
>resumed shortly.

Jim,

Do you see anything beneficial re: tying & soldering (modern SS)
spokes, or is this yet another chapter in your tedious campaign
to attain alpha male status in r.b.t?

Christ, I thought James Annan was bad...

 

[[email protected]]

Mike Anderson writes:

>>> I am looking for an alternative to DT Proline pre-tinned wire.

>>> I would like to try tying and soldering for practice. I know that
>>> DT sells wire and solder, but it is pricey. Are there suitable
>>> items available? I would like to find an alternative that is as
>>> easy to yank as the DT wire. I will use the knot-free method.

>>> I know the question of tie and solder have been discussed many
>>> times. I am just looking for a more economical pre-tinned wire
>>> regardless if the method is useful or not.

>> You didn't say why you want to undertake this tedious chore. I
>> hope you are aware that measurements were made on hand built wheels
>> furnished by Wheelsmith before and after tying and soldering to
>> prove that there was no possible structural effect from this
>> process.

>> John Starley invented cross laced spoking on high wheelers so that
>> he could tie spokes at crossing points to prevent them from causing
>> a header when they broke. That was the initial purpose of cross
>> lacing spokes, so that they could be tied together. Shortly after
>> that Renold showed Starley his bicycle chain and the chain driven
>> bicycle of today was born.

>> Wheel builders were furious that he made tying spokes unnecessary
>> so they began using wire and soldering them to convince people that
>> this made their wheels "stronger" without showing the need for that
>> strength or how it could affect durability. They got so good a
>> telling these fables that 100 years passed without a real challenge
>> to the concept. It was pure faith... "why would they lie to me?"
>> Well, in fact the art was so old that the purveyors believed it
>> themselves.

>> I assure you that there is nothing to it, except that replacing a
>> broken spoke becomes more difficult. I've seen it done back when
>> this was a common practice.

> My reason is pure vanity - I think it looks cool. I ride vintage
> racing bikes and it adds yet a little aesthetics to the bike.

Well that's a valid cause. I believe old track bicycles look best
with high flange (Racelite/Airlite) hubs, 28 or 32 thin spokes tied
and soldered, looking as though the really lived in those days. Of
course, inch pitch block chain is also an important piece of
nostalgia.

http://derbyking.com/Detail/?n=131

I recall how Jack Disney, our local monster sprinter, insisted that
track sprinters were too strong for 3/32 road chain and that only a
3/16 by inch pitch block chain could reliably transmit the power. All
his wheels were tied and soldered.

His 15 degree droop nosed steel bar stems with bars that curved down
from the clamp with no "tops" to them, they being only designed for
riding on the drops. Ah yes, the old classics.

> Your book is my bible when it comes to building wheels so I knew
> that it had no real use.

Thanks, it's always nice to hear a kind word about the book.

Jobst Brandt

 

[B Paton]

I think i recall someone posting a link to a bee-keeping supply house for
this purpose last year..might be worth searching the archives. This is what
Gerd Shranen started with and the DT is modelled after it.
Blake

 

[Jasper Janssen]

On Mon, 14 Nov 2005 21:44:06 -0500, mike anderson
<[email protected]> wrote:

>do not spoil it by acting like a bully.

Bit late for that. The stalkeriffic overtones between several combinations
of posters here are legendary.

Jasper

 

[mike anderson]

On 2005-11-13 21:53:55 -0500, [email protected] said:

> Mike Anderson writes:
>
>> I am looking for an alternative to DT Proline pre-tinned wire.
>
>> I would like to try tying and soldering for practice. I know that DT
>> sells wire and solder, but it is pricey. Are there suitable items
>> available? I would like to find an alternative that is as easy to
>> yank as the DT wire. I will use the knot-free method.
>
>> I know the question of tie and solder have been discussed many
>> times. I am just looking for a more economical pre-tinned wire
>> regardless if the method is useful or not.
>
> You didn't say why you want to undertake this tedious chore. I hope
> you are aware that measurements were made on hand built wheels
> furnished by Wheelsmith before and after tying and soldering to prove
> that there was no possible structural effect from this process.
>
> John Starley invented cross laced spoking on high wheelers so that he
> could tie spokes at crossing points to prevent them from causing a
> header when they broke. That was the initial purpose of cross lacing
> spokes, so that they could be tied together. Shortly after that
> Renold showed Starley his bicycle chain and the chain driven bicycle of
> today was born.
> Wheel builders were furious that he made tying spokes unnecessary so
> they began using wire and soldering them to convince people that this
> made their wheels "stronger" without showing the need for that
> strength or how it could affect durability. They got so good a
> telling these fables that 100 years passed without a real challenge to
> the concept. It was pure faith... "why would they lie to me?" Well,
> in fact the art was so old that the purveyors believed it themselves.
>
> I assure you that there is nothing to it, except that replacing a
> broken spoke becomes more difficult. I've seen it done back when this
> was a common practice.
>
> Jobst Brandt

My reason is pure vanity - I think it looks cool. I ride vintage racing
bikes and it adds yet a little aesthetics to the bike.
Your book is my bible when it comes to building wheels so I knew
that it had no real use.

Thanks
mike

 

[mike anderson]

> '....now lessee, how long before
> Jobst........SECOND POST!!!
>
> Way to stay predictable Jobst!!

Embarrassing. You have done more than your share in here — although far
from what Mr. Brandt has achieved — do not spoil it by acting like a
bully.

mike anderson

 

[jim beam]

[email protected] wrote:
> Mike Anderson writes:
>
>
>>>>I am looking for an alternative to DT Proline pre-tinned wire.
>
>
>>>>I would like to try tying and soldering for practice. I know that
>>>>DT sells wire and solder, but it is pricey. Are there suitable
>>>>items available? I would like to find an alternative that is as
>>>>easy to yank as the DT wire. I will use the knot-free method.
>
>
>>>>I know the question of tie and solder have been discussed many
>>>>times. I am just looking for a more economical pre-tinned wire
>>>>regardless if the method is useful or not.
>
>
>>>You didn't say why you want to undertake this tedious chore. I
>>>hope you are aware that measurements were made on hand built wheels
>>>furnished by Wheelsmith before and after tying and soldering to
>>>prove that there was no possible structural effect from this
>>>process.
>
>
>>>John Starley invented cross laced spoking on high wheelers so that
>>>he could tie spokes at crossing points to prevent them from causing
>>>a header when they broke. That was the initial purpose of cross
>>>lacing spokes, so that they could be tied together. Shortly after
>>>that Renold showed Starley his bicycle chain and the chain driven
>>>bicycle of today was born.
>
>
>>>Wheel builders were furious that he made tying spokes unnecessary
>>>so they began using wire and soldering them to convince people that
>>>this made their wheels "stronger" without showing the need for that
>>>strength or how it could affect durability. They got so good a
>>>telling these fables that 100 years passed without a real challenge
>>>to the concept. It was pure faith... "why would they lie to me?"
>>>Well, in fact the art was so old that the purveyors believed it
>>>themselves.
>
>
>>>I assure you that there is nothing to it, except that replacing a
>>>broken spoke becomes more difficult. I've seen it done back when
>>>this was a common practice.
>
>
>>My reason is pure vanity - I think it looks cool. I ride vintage
>>racing bikes and it adds yet a little aesthetics to the bike.
>
>
> Well that's a valid cause. I believe old track bicycles look best
> with high flange (Racelite/Airlite) hubs, 28 or 32 thin spokes tied
> and soldered, looking as though the really lived in those days. Of
> course, inch pitch block chain is also an important piece of
> nostalgia.
>
> http://derbyking.com/Detail/?n=131
>
> I recall how Jack Disney, our local monster sprinter, insisted that
> track sprinters were too strong for 3/32 road chain and that only a
> 3/16 by inch pitch block chain could reliably transmit the power. All
> his wheels were tied and soldered.

ah, the old jobstian ad hominem with a paralleled but irrelevant nugget
of truth to bait away from the point of contention.

>
> His 15 degree droop nosed steel bar stems with bars that curved down
> from the clamp with no "tops" to them, they being only designed for
> riding on the drops. Ah yes, the old classics.
>
>
>>Your book is my bible when it comes to building wheels so I knew
>>that it had no real use.
>
>
> Thanks, it's always nice to hear a kind word about the book.
>
> Jobst Brandt

 

[jim beam]

mike anderson wrote:
> On 2005-11-13 23:05:44 -0500, "David L. Johnson" <[email protected]>
> said:
>
>> On Mon, 14 Nov 2005 02:42:45 -0500, mike anderson wrote:
>>
>>> I know the question of tie and solder have been discussed many times.
>>> I am just looking for a more economical pre-tinned wire regardless if
>>> the method is useful or not.
>>
>>
>> You don't need a pre-tinned wire. Why do you think you do?
>
>
> It would help to avoid annealing.
>
anneaing of what? you're not going to anneal a spoke at soldering
temperatures. not unless you're using a gas torch and /way/ overheating.

 

[Joshua Putnam]

In article <2005111421093716807%seeunderneath@mypostcom>,
[email protected] says...

> My reason is pure vanity - I think it looks cool. I ride vintage racing
> bikes and it adds yet a little aesthetics to the bike.

In that case, I'd definitely suggest copper wire -- just as
decorative, easier to work with, and easier to take back apart if you
need to replace a spoke.

--
[email protected] is Joshua Putnam
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/>
Braze your own bicycle frames. See
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html>