Tifosi CK3 - what do you think?



irishpacker

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May 27, 2007
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Afternoon Gents. Right, here's the situation: I bought a Tifosi CK3 with a Look fork, Campagnolo groupset and other different brand parts (ITM, Stelle etc) second hand off a guy from Galway last summer. I've been using it on a near day to day basis for making the 20km commute to college, training and also doing the odd 150+cycling trip when ever I get the chance.. The thing is, I've always thought the rame size was too small for me. I have the saddle raized very high, my knee is just over the top tube then the crank is horizontal, and I have to reach very far forward and down to reach the handle bars, in fact, it is very uncomforable to use the underhang part of the handle bar - so much so that my hands are always resting ontop of the breaks.

Anyway I'm going to put up a photo of my bike and if you spot something that is very wrong with the set up please tell me!!! Or if that is just the way it is meant to be??
58865899a4499659717b974750759l.jpg
! Any comment would be appreciated!!!!!!!!!! Thanks

58865899a4499659385b273286263l.jpg


Oh by the way, the bike is a 53.5cm (C-Top) frame, and I am 5'10 (178cm).
 
The frame does look quite small. If you cannot stand being in the drops, they're too low.

Have you tried flipping the stem upside down? That may get the bars a few cm higher.
 
You may be too tall for the bike, I am 5'8" and I ride a 52cm...as for riding in the drops, it may be you're just not flexible enough yet to ride that low. Flipping the stem to give the bars a bit of rise should help. Typical seat height for a properly sized bike is if you put a straight edge on top of the seat, it should be about 1-2" above the handlebar...
 
Thanks for the responces!

Ye I'm very flexible so thats not the problem, in fact I can touch my forehead off my knee with my legs straight! ... Yes anyway, It's just very odd because all the measurements I've done say that this is the right size bike for me (55cm) to be precise, but it just feels realy small, yet Ironically, the hadle bars feel too far away, Or to be more precise, too far down. I'm a little confused.:confused:

my inseem in 80cm, arm length 71cm and height 178cm. Maybe I'm just an odd shape??? I dont know please help!!!!!

Also I shall try that, putting the stem upside down, thanks!
 
irishpacker said:
Afternoon Gents. Right, here's the situation: I bought a Tifosi CK3 with a Look fork, Campagnolo groupset and other different brand parts (ITM, Stelle etc) second hand off a guy from Galway last summer. I've been using it on a near day to day basis for making the 20km commute to college, training and also doing the odd 150+cycling trip when ever I get the chance.. The thing is, I've always thought the rame size was too small for me. I have the saddle raized very high, my knee is just over the top tube then the crank is horizontal, and I have to reach very far forward and down to reach the handle bars, in fact, it is very uncomforable to use the underhang part of the handle bar - so much so that my hands are always resting ontop of the breaks.

Anyway I'm going to put up a photo of my bike and if you spot something that is very wrong with the set up please tell me!!! Or if that is just the way it is meant to be??! Any comment would be appreciated!!!!!!!!!! Thanks

58865899a4499659385b273286263l.jpg


Oh by the way, the bike is a 53.5cm (C-Top) frame, and I am 5'10 (178cm).
If you were a competitive racer, the frame is probably the "right" size ... for regular rider, it could easily be suggested that your current setup is very aggressive for "normal" riding (whatever THAT is!) and that a frame with a 55cm-to-56cm top tube (and subsequently, a taller seat tube) would/could be a better fit.

I presume the guy in Galway was probably between 5'7" to 5'9" ... or, a competitive rider.

I'm 5'9" and the TOP TUBE on my frames varies from between 54cm & 57cm (vintage frames), but the variance is adjusted by the stem length (12cm to 9cm, accordingly) & the way the bars are oriented.

While I think that MOST riders ride with their hands on the upper portion of the handlebar or brake hoods most of the time (if not always!?!), there are a couple of obvious things you can consider doing before opting for a larger frame (nice bike, BTW):
  • Unwrap the handlebar tape & rotate the bars so that the lower portion is parallel to the ground (first attachement) ... or, even a little further (second attachment) AND remount the brake levers, accordingly.
  • Invert the stem (actually, try this first since it is so quick-and-easy to do), as suggested by graphixgeek
Rotating the bars will shorten the forward reach by about 1cm (which you may-or-may-not want to do ... I subsequently installed a stem that was 1cm shorter (12cm vs. 13cm) & rotated the bars so that the lower portion was "flat" but I may eventually go back to the over-rotated position for that particular handlebar), but it will probably make the lower portion of the handlebar more useable -- handlebar position is a matter of personal preference, but it seems that most people don't realize that the handlebar position doesn't have to be the way it was when the bike was received from the shop or the prior rider/owner -- I have some bars whose lower section is shorter than others, and I know that my preference is for a lower section that is longer ... trial-and-error IS sometimes involved to find the ideal for a given rider.


FWIW. You may want to consider a NEW handlebar before getting a new frame ... I personally recommend you look at a 44cm (c-c) ITM [which is actually the "brand" which it looks like your bike may have] ... amongst others.​


BTW. If your bike currently has 170mm cranks (still, a very popular size for road bikes), then you may want to consider 175mm cranks which will lessen the differential between the saddle & handlebars. Crank length is a very controversial topic, and you could be introducing new problems OR resolving other issues which you aren't currently aware exist.​
 
Thanks for the reply Alfeng!

I'm actually going to invert the stem tonight and see what difference it makes.

You were saying to lower the handlebars so the bottom is parallel to the ground. In the two pictures you posted, I used have them set up somewhere inbetween those two settings. I was able to get my hands to the underhang easily then, but I rotated it upwards because I felt I was using the top 90% of the time for resting my hands on, and by rotating it up it brought them closer to me thus more comfortable. unfortunately I couldn't find a happy medium between having a comfortable top handlebar and controlable underhang position. I opted for the most comforable top position rendering the underhang useless. But I can't understand why this is the case? Shouldn't both positions be usable? My theory is the entire handlebars/stem are too low and the seat too high, thus why I think the frame is too small for me. but like you said I'm not a professional and maybe i should go for a more casual riding position.

when I ride my friends racer, a Giant OCR and he's my height, I cant get over how upright I feel compared to my bike! His bike feels like a sofa and mine like a really tall stool!

Also, I didn't know you could move the brake levers like that! That might just solve all my problems!

Thanks!
 
irishpacker said:
Thanks for the reply Alfeng!

I'm actually going to invert the stem tonight and see what difference it makes.

You were saying to lower the handlebars so the bottom is parallel to the ground. In the two pictures you posted, I used (to) have them set up somewhere inbetween those two settings. I was able to get my hands to the underhang easily then, but I rotated it upwards because I felt I was using the top 90% of the time for resting my hands on, and by rotating it up it brought them closer to me thus more comfortable. unfortunately I couldn't find a happy medium between having a comfortable top handlebar and controlable underhang position. I opted for the most comforable top position rendering the underhang useless. But I can't understand why this is the case? Shouldn't both positions be usable? My theory is the entire handlebars/stem are too low and the seat too high, thus why I think the frame is too small for me. but like you said I'm not a professional and maybe i should go for a more casual riding position.

when I ride my friends racer, a Giant OCR and he's my height, I cant get over how upright I feel compared to my bike! His bike feels like a sofa and mine like a really tall stool!
Yes, you definitely want to be comfortable with your hands on any part of the handlebar ...

In addition to inverting the stem, there are actually Hi-Rise stems that are more commonly used on moutain bikes which will raise your handelbars by almost 2 inches (5cm) with about 9cm forward reach ... fairly generic (i.e., polished alumnum -- this can be remedied!), and probably about £10 ...

BTW. On the Campy levers, it isn't obvious where the 5mm recessed nut is located because it is shrouded by the hood.

If you feel on top of the hood (where your hands are normally placed when riding on the hoods), you may be able to feel a slight uneveness toward the outer edge (about 2cm behind the "horn") ... that is where the recessed nut is located. If you roll the back edge of the hood foward, you may be able to see its location, better.

You will need a LONG 5mm Allen Wrench (e.g., T-handle).

Gently, lift the front of the hood [the part that is at the front & covers the "horn(ed)" portion] ... slide the Allen wrench beneath the rubber hood ... poke around until the Allen wrench engages the recessed nut ... loosen, re-position, tighten.

FWIW. If you look at the two pics of the two handlebars, again, you may notice that the side profiles of the two bars is different -- it isn't just that the one is rotated downward ... different bars have different silhouette shapes. If I were more finicky, there would have been greater precision in setting up the two particular bikes (the "green" frame has a 1cm larger seat & top tube) , but even with the "casual" set up, you can see that the brake levers are in almost the same orientation & (even the) height on either bike despite the great difference in the postion of the respective handlebars (it would probably be a little more obvious if the two pics were scaled & cropped better).
 
alfeng said:
I...
I'm 5'9" and the TOP TUBE on my frames varies from between 54cm & 57cm (vintage frames), but the variance is adjusted by the stem length (12cm to 9cm, accordingly) & the way the bars are oriented.

While I think that MOST riders ride with their hands on the upper portion of the handlebar or brake hoods most of the time (if not always!?!), there are a couple of obvious things you can consider doing before opting for a larger frame (nice bike, BTW):
  • Unwrap the handlebar tape & rotate the bars so that the lower portion is parallel to the ground (first attachement) ... or, even a little further (second attachment) AND remount the brake levers, accordingly.
  • Invert the stem (actually, try this first since it is so quick-and-easy to do), as suggested by graphixgeek
Rotating the bars will shorten the forward reach by about 1cm (which you may-or-may-not want to do ... I subsequently installed a stem that was 1cm shorter (12cm vs. 13cm) & rotated the bars so that the lower portion was "flat" but I may eventually go back to the over-rotated position for that particular handlebar), but it will probably make the lower portion of the handlebar more useable -- handlebar position is a matter of personal preference, but it seems that most people don't realize that the handlebar position doesn't have to be the way it was when the bike was received from the shop or the prior rider/owner -- I have some bars whose lower section is shorter than others, and I know that my preference is for a lower section that is longer ... trial-and-error IS sometimes involved to find the ideal for a given rider.
These are good ideas. One thing I would recommend is going to a shop that can put you and your bike on a trainer and then install an adjustable fitting stem. I did that recently and it really helped me decide on stem length and rise - and there was a sweet spot for sure. This was not a full fitting (although he did double check my saddle height and fore-aft position, which was satisfactory both in my opinion and his). But, with the adjustable stem (This was a Salsa brand - and I think he called it a fitting stem) We could very quickly and easily vary the length and angle. Then I'd ride for a few minutes and we'd try again.

Above that, it might be well worth your while to pay for a professional fitting before investing in a lot of trial and error stems, bars, frames etc.

PS: I think the Giant OCR is designed to be a serious, but comfortable frame as opposed to an aggressive racing frame. Another thing I'd do if I had a bike to compare that really felt comfortable, is to put them along side one another and really measure what the differences are and then decide if you can make your frame work. It could be that you need a different frame.

This site is good for the measurements:
http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=130

If the link doesn't work, you're looking for the "road positioning chart" on the Park Tools website.
 
I made the adjustments you guys suggested and yes it did make the underhang alot easier to use. I alot moved the brake levers towards me about an inch to compensate.

BUT

This now means that when I use the underhang, my knees are hitting my chest.
and
even when I'm resting hands on top, it is noticeably sore on my lower back - which was the reason I started adjusting the handlebars in the first place. Maybe I just have to get used to it!

I went out for a quick 30k to check how it felt. It felt very good on steep ascents and the underhang was a joy on the decent! but it was "uncomfortable", even painful, on my lower back. bear in mine I have well above average flexibility.

I was also checking my shadow on the road as it was evening, and i noticed my back was only bent at my lower back, and straight from there to my neck. I tried to get the "arch" that they say you should have when cycling, but that means having to pull my arms back from onto of the brakes.
Also
I'm right in saying your arms are meant to have a kink in them when resting ontop of the bars? well mine are constantly dead straight.

I'm still confused! I mean this is meant to be my frame size?!? or at least a cm or 2 under!

I shall take your advice and visit the bike shop, they may be patronising bike nerds, but they may be able to help!

Thanks again lads:D
 
irishpacker said:
I made the adjustments you guys suggested and yes it did make the underhang alot easier to use. I alot moved the brake levers towards me about an inch to compensate.

BUT

This now means that when I use the underhang, my knees are hitting my chest.
and
even when I'm resting hands on top, it is noticeably sore on my lower back - which was the reason I started adjusting the handlebars in the first place. Maybe I just have to get used to it!

I went out for a quick 30k to check how it felt. It felt very good on steep ascents and the underhang was a joy on the decent! but it was "uncomfortable", even painful, on my lower back. bear in mine I have well above average flexibility.

I was also checking my shadow on the road as it was evening, and i noticed my back was only bent at my lower back, and straight from there to my neck. I tried to get the "arch" that they say you should have when cycling, but that means having to pull my arms back from onto of the brakes.
Also
I'm right in saying your arms are meant to have a kink in them when resting ontop of the bars? well mine are constantly dead straight.

I'm still confused! I mean this is meant to be my frame size?!? or at least a cm or 2 under!

I shall take your advice and visit the bike shop, they may be patronising bike nerds, but they may be able to help!

Thanks again lads:D
Okay, so I'm eyeballing the pic of your bike, and using my keen sense of proportion (kidding!), I reckon that the distance between the top of the saddle (in a line that goes along the seat tube) to the center of the crank is something like 30" ... or, more! Is that right?

I can't discern the length of the crank arms at this distance ... 170mm?

Anyway, try reducing the distance between the center of the crank arm & the top of your saddle (again, when measured along the seat tube) to about 29" AND moving the seat back as far as it can go if it isn't already --you may eventually want a seatpost with more setback -- something like an Easton EA50 (i.e., their economy version) which has about a 1/4" more setback than most.

See how lowering the saddle affects your position on the bike!

Also, in addition to the hi-rise, normally MTB-type stem(s):

NS-ACTS.gif

AND, this stubby stem will elevate & extend the bars less.
NS-ACTS.2.gif



While MTB & ROAD handlebars theoretically have different diameter center sections, a MTB stem can often accommodate a ROAD handlebar without too much effort (if any) ... however, "tweaking" the clamp may be necessary by removing VERY SMALL amount from the edge of the stem-proper. My observation is that the face plate of most MTB stems fits perfectly against most ROAD handlebars ... that will be a clue that minimal (if any) effort is required to make the stem viable. Of course, OS (31.8) bars are another issue ...

You can also consider a stem-rise extension (available for both 1" & 1 1/8" steerers) ... again, I think they are rarely seen on ROAD bikes, but this is more a matter of cosmetics/aesthetics, I think.

YS-10S-SIL-SIDE.gif


The stem-riser extension is probably a last resort because of the amount of additional rise (about 3") ... but, I suppose that once you get the size/length, you can trim it ... or, not!?!

Figure only about £10 for any of these options.

BTW. At some point, you should compare the measurements of your friend's bike and yours ... I'm guessing the distance between his/her saddle's height & the center of the crank is much less than on your bike.

BTW2. At 178cm, you are closer to 5'8" (presumably, bare foot) ... and, if that is correct, then seriously consider re-setting the distance between the top-of-the-saddle & the center-of-the-crank to between 27.50 & 27.75 inches (the distance is not quite as arbitrary sounding as I have probably made it seem) ... the actual distance depends on the length of your crankarms/etc. (where, "etc." means you don't want me to go into it, right now).
 
thanks again for all the advice lads, really appreciated!

It struck me that it would be alot easier to explain my issue if I had a photo of me actually on the bike, so here you go! Took a while to figure out how to get the timer workin so appreciate my hard work please!
58865899a4530954884b573176573l.jpg


And heres one with hands on the hunderhang
58865899a4530955218b332112314l.jpg


From looking at these myself I notice that my legs are maybe over extended, but it doesn't feel that way when on the bike. although that may be the reason I sometimes get sore knees.

:D
 
Good news - your seat is too high. It looks like you have your knee locked and your toe pointing down in the lower photo. I would start by flipping the stem and lowering your seat a little.
 
irishpacker said:
thanks again for all the advice lads, really appreciated!

It struck me that it would be alot easier to explain my issue if I had a photo of me actually on the bike, so here you go! Took a while to figure out how to get the timer workin so appreciate my hard work please!
58865899a4530954884b573176573l.jpg


And heres one with hands on the hunderhang
58865899a4530955218b332112314l.jpg


From looking at these myself I notice that my legs are maybe over extended, but it doesn't feel that way when on the bike. although that may be the reason I sometimes get sore knees.

:D
You gotta be wearing your cycling shoes for a test like this. Stocking feet have considerably less reach than the shoes (because of cleat and sole thickness). Also, your feet position will be different because you aren't locked in with the cleats. Finally, a static position is not good, you should be spinning. Or spin for a while and then stop.

That said, the seat position does look high - how does it feel when you're peddling? Are you forced to sway at the hips?

But, I still recommend you get someone in flesh and blood to look at you and advise you on fit. Some things just can't be done on line. JMHO, of course.
 
Camilo said:
You gotta be wearing your cycling shoes for a test like this.
Good point, and I did consider mentioning that, but from the photo, no stack height is going to make that seat height right.
 
artemidorus said:
Good point, and I did consider mentioning that, but from the photo, no stack height is going to make that seat height right.
I agree totally, but I still wonder how his hips behave when he's pedaling.

To OP: to adjust your seat (at least for starters). Put your shoes on. Support yourself on the bike so you can put your feet on the pedals. Put one *heel* on the pedal and extend that leg so the pedal is straight down. Your knee should be locked or nearly locked (again, with the heel, not the toe, on the pedal). Adjust your seat height until this is the case. Then ride the bike for a while and decide if you want to go a touch higher or lower than that.
 
It was only meant to be a basic glance lads calm down! I was was more interested in how my upper body looked than if my legs were too straight. You are right though, and my legs aren't at that extreme a lock out when I'm up and running shoes on and all, but I think I will lower it a cm or so.

I get what you are saying about hip movement. I used to feel that movement of the hip going down as the leg pressed down the pedal but not any more since I lowered it a bit. I'll try that technique of using my heel rather than my toe, thanks lads! really appreciate everything!! I've been trying to figure out if this bike is right for me or not for ages!!!
 
Your original photos...that bike would look at home in the pro peleton. The drop from seat to bar 'looks' about right for a pro that is going for an aero position when riding hard down in the drops.

I also agree with the others that your seat height may need to be dropped. Only a competent fit or 'on the road' evaluation by expirienced eyes can say for certain.

The stem reach may be a Cm or two too long, but I think a fit might also have you sliding your saddle forward a Cm also...hard to tell without seeing you in shoes at 3 o'clock on the pedals (you mentioned knee pain? could be a seat fore-to-aft issue or height related or both.) Your back looks about 'right' to my eye, but the self-portrait probably has you a bit out of your natural road position.

Hmmm? If only there were an easy way for us to submit a side-shot video riding on rollers!