Time Course of Anaerobic Adaptations

Discussion in 'Power Training' started by gudujarlson, Aug 30, 2012.

  1. gudujarlson

    gudujarlson New Member

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    Frost, is there a book you can recommend that covers the time course of athletic adaptations and other related topics?
     


  2. frost

    frost New Member

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    Well my general reference book is from the eighties and it's in finnish so obviously I cannot recommend that one very largely /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif. Forum physiologists (eg. acoggan) could give very good references and I am quite sure Dave also has some ideas where to look for.
     
  3. gudujarlson

    gudujarlson New Member

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    Following this thread I adjusted my weekly training to consist of 4-6 1x40 SST sessions plus a 4 hour hard group ride. I didn't do any focused L2, L3 or L5-L7 training; albeit the group rides had a fair amount of work across the spectrum. Life got in the way a lot and I had more rest days than I would have liked. Today I performed my standard test, which is modeled after the one in Allen and Coggan's book. Guess what improved? My sprint power! *boggle*

    7/8/2012 Test
    5s 897
    10s 814
    20s 750
    1m 490
    5m 322
    20m --- (257 on 6/1/2012)

    10/10/2012 Test
    5s 1035 +15%
    10s 910 +12%
    20s 825 +8.5%
    1m 482 -1.7%
    5m 314 -2.5%
    20m 254 -1.2%

    I'm guessing I shouldn't read too much into this, because the 20s test is probably the least repeatable test. It's short and contains several gear shifts. I probably just got lucky. The second of the 2 20s tests was more inline with previous performances. It's still fun to see the best numbers ever in that test.

    I got my power meter back 2 days ago and didn't have it during most of the SST training. I did the SST training using a heart rate monitor. I tried to keep my heart rate around the boundary between L3 and L4 using Joe Friel's heart rate zones (92-95% LTHR). After getting my power meter back, I discovered that I was probably doing my SST intervals at too low of a power. My SST heart rate appears to be about 96-99% of my LTHR. Doing the intervals at that increased power is noticeably more fatiguing. I'm not sure about doing 1x40 twice a day for 3 days in a row during the week at that intensity. I could drop to 1x20 twice a day, but then it seems like I am spending too much time in Z2; as I still have to finish my commute. Or I could drop the intensity back to where it was and stay with the same volume. Or I could do some hard days and some easy days.

    The test goes like this:

    15m warmup
    3x1(1) fast pedaling
    3m L1
    5m max
    10m L2
    2x1(5) max
    5m L1
    3x20(3) max
    10m L1/L2
    20m max
    15m cooldown
     
  4. vspa

    vspa Active Member

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  5. vspa

    vspa Active Member

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    please, what powermeter do you use, for how long and how did it broke ? i understand every type of powermeter needs to be service by the manufacturer after some time, i'll start saving for one so i need to understand them better, thank you
     
  6. gudujarlson

    gudujarlson New Member

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    I have a PowerTap Pro+. It was broke for 2 months. I don't know what was wrong. Saris sent it back working with no explanation; or at least that is what the bike shop told me. It was one month beyond warranty, but they didn't charge me anything.
     
  7. frost

    frost New Member

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    Nice improvement even not what you probably expected : ). Though if the sprint improvement is not necessarily totally unexpected if I interpret right what you are saying about life getting away and having much more rest than expected. NMP and AWC are sensitive to freshness and at least part of the improvement might reflect reduced workout volume. I would expect to see that effect at least to 1 and 5min too but as you say I wouldn't read too much into it, considering that the change in 1-20min numbers is well within day-to-day variation not forgetting what the maintenance/change of you power meter might have done.

    I have to emphasize that this is an internet forum and you should not read too much into what people write here for multiple reasons either. And I wouldn't take any writing as a training advice at least without critique and definately it is not any kind of replacement for a coach who is familiar with you, your background, targets, response to different workouts, volumes, etc, etc .So take this with a grain of salt and understand it as a speculation that might be or might not. After this long, boring caution, 1x40 twice a day for 3 days in a row sounds like a total overkill. You'd have to be really execptional to handle that and maintain quality. 1x20 twice a day wouldn't probably do any good comparing to doing eg. 2x20 or 1x40 at one workout if that anyhow fits to your schedule. I would personally vote for your last proposal of some hard and some easy days and put lot of effort and concentration to the hard days.

    Btw did you find the book I suggested?
     
  8. gudujarlson

    gudujarlson New Member

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    Chronic fatigue might have been a factor except that the 7/8 test was after 6 days rest and the 10/10 test was after 1 day rest, However, for reasons I don't remember, I did a strength training session on 7/6; or at least there is one in my journal.

    I have found my 5 minute power to be really hit or miss. I set a personal record in 2011 (980w) that stood for 10 months and I did it in the middle of a very anaerobic hill climb group ride when I was badly fatigued. After many attempts to break it, I started to wonder if my power meter was off that day. But then I broke the record and then broke it again (1038w and 1058w). None of my personal best 5s powers have been during a test like the one described above. They have been set during group rides or rides where I had the goal of setting a personal best. I have found that the best way to set a 5s power record is to coast down a big hill and sprint at the bottom. This allows me to stay in one gear at optimum cadence for a longer time than if I start from a slower speed. But I didn't know this trick when I first started testing myself and I want my tests to be repeatable, so I don't use the technique in my tests. I'm quite surprised that I hit a number over 1000w despite that fact.

    Yes, I think 1x40 twice a day 3 days in a row is probably too much; albeit I have not tried it yet. Note that my 1x40s are not true 1x40s because there are 5 stop lights that provide a couple short rests depending on timing. My commute is a little too short to do 2x20(15), albeit I could make it longer by riding backwards. I'm already making it longer by taking a less-than-direct route. But if I do 2x20(15) or 1x40 during the morning commute, what do I do during the evening commute?

    Are you saying that 2x20(8 hours) is inferior to 2x20(15 min) or are you saying there's no evidence that either is better or worse?

    Easy days, hard days... Joe Friel is a fan of this approach, but I have never understood why. What is the difference between a badly executed hard day and an easy day? Are the easy days accomplishing anything or are they just adding fatigue? Would it be better to just rest on easy days? Is there any research to back up the easy/hard protocol?
     
  9. gudujarlson

    gudujarlson New Member

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    I ordered it but it has not arrived yet.
     
  10. frost

    frost New Member

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    Now the disclaimer again in the beginning, remember the forum readers do not know you, your training background, etc, etc so everything is just pure speculation that might hit the nail or could be horribly wrong and at best is just something to give you ideas that you might find useful in evaluating your performance/training.

    I had not actually understood that you do your workouts during commuting. That gives a bit of perspective to how you plan to structure your workouts. For splitting the threshold/SST efforts to morning and afternoon I don't know if there is evidence/studies for one way or another. My gut feeling is that if they are 20min efforts it might be better to do them together and keep the rest between minimum so that you actually still at least to some extent recovering from the first effort when you start the next and that way your body doesn't start all the way from zero. But also my gut feeling is that the difference if there is any if neglible.
    The reasons why I think you could try easier and harder days are that first of all I understood that you have been training with highish volume earlier and not seeing very much improvement, so maybe try another way, keep some volume but special effort and concentration to few key workouts. Once again here it is my impression that you have had a high volume which could be wrong.
    The other reason is that your FTP vs. 5min relation is quite low. That might be due to high anaerobic capacity (not very likely looking at your 1min number) or just simply "short" training background but it might be also, and don't take this personally, that you are just not trying hard enough in the 20min test or not pacing successfully and once again, doing maybe a bit less of them if that enables you to put more effort and concentration could be useful.
    Anyway as I said these are just ideas that you must evaluate yourself against your doing and if you do changes to your workout routine give it time to see where it leads you.
     
  11. gudujarlson

    gudujarlson New Member

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    I've been training 5-20 hours/week all season. I'm not sure if that fits your definition of "highish". I saw big gains March to May and then I plateaued, but my training got more erratic then as well.

    You could be right about my 20 minute pacing. If anything I am undershooting it. I never burn out in the middle. I do the first 15 minutes at 240ish watts and the last 5 minutes at 270-300ish watts. My average watts climb from 240ish to 250ish during the last 5 minutes. I feel a little bit like I am cheating in the last 5 minutes, but I guess that is why the suggestion is to take 95% of 20MP for FTP; which I do. I have other rides, including 2 10k TTs, with AP/NP power right around my tested FTP, so I think it is fairly repeatable.

    By the way, I do the same sort of thing on my 5 minute test. I ride at 300 watts and then push it up to 350ish at the end. My 1 minute test generally goes the other way. I fade at the end. Same with the 20s test.
     
  12. frost

    frost New Member

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    5 would be low 20 would be (very) high and in between you can add "ish" /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif. Take a look what you did from March to May and try to find what you have been doing differently ever since. Still progress is not linear, not even curvylinear but there are plateaus and then you suddenly make a jump often with no apparent reason.

    There's no cheating in 20 test. You do what you can and a bit more. Is 95% of that right for FTP is a whole another story then. Gradually building the power over the test duration is common but go and try different "strategies". Go nuts and overshoot it starting too high or try to nail the same all the way or start first minute easy and then build to target power over first five minutes (don't wait until last 5 minutes). Take it as an interesting experiment, after all you don't have anything to lose. At some test you might end up exhausted with lower numbers. So what.
     
  13. gudujarlson

    gudujarlson New Member

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    From March to May I did what I described previously in this thread: a program based on the 16 week build case study in Coggan and Allen's book. That program had very little SST work, but a fair amount of 100-105% FTP.
     
  14. gudujarlson

    gudujarlson New Member

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    Quote:
    The other reason is that your FTP vs. 5min relation is quite low.

    I've been thinking a lot about this. I went back and looked at my last standard test.

    What I discovered is that WKO+ calculates my normalized power during the work portion of this test (i.e. excluding warm up and cool down) was 262 (IF 1.072) which is 7.3% higher than my estimated FTP (244) and 3.1% higher than my average power during the 20 min test (254). This really surprises me because a large portion of time I was resting in L1. The 20 min test is at the end so I was not exactly fresh when I did it. Maybe my FTP is higher than I think or maybe this is a bit of a "NP buster".

    I' did 6 20 min SST intervals this work week and averaged 221-228 watts on 5 of them. On one I stepped it up and averaged 241 and it felt like a 20 min TT without a sprint at the end. None of these were a walk in park and I have a hard time believing I could average 262 for an hour.
     
  15. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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  16. gudujarlson

    gudujarlson New Member

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    Oops, I forgot the duration... the 262 watts NP (IF 1.072) was maintained over 1:05:53.
     
  17. gudujarlson

    gudujarlson New Member

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    CP: 239.81
    AWC:17940.1993355482
    R^2: 0.999252264024973

    Estimated FTP: 245

    It agrees with my estimate within 1 watt (0.4%).
     
  18. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    I'd go with the CP model estimate. The nice thing about the CP model estimate is that with a few well chosen data points, you can predict your sustainable power for a wide range of durations. This is nice to have before a target event when you may not have a good benchmark for the estimated duration of the event. The main drawback to the CP model is that it doesn't taper sufficiently at the durations beyond 1 hr. So, I usually include a 60min MMP when I use the CP model.
     
  19. gudujarlson

    gudujarlson New Member

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    I've been reading Physiology of Sport and Exercise. It has filled in a few gaps, but in general I wish it went into more depth. It glosses over many areas where I have questions.
     
  20. frost

    frost New Member

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    It doesn't go into the depths but it is a good starter to cover basic concepts and terminology which enables you to read and understand further scientific texts. You have almost unlimited choices to expand your knowledge eg. with further books or by subscribing an exercise/sports physiology journal (there are tons of them available online, quite many having articles for free, just google 'journal of sports science' or 'journal of exercise physiology').
     
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