Time Trial Position

Discussion in 'Cycling Training' started by kiwiboy, Dec 23, 2003.

  1. kiwiboy

    kiwiboy New Member

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    Whats best when TT to be foward (close to BB) or back.

    I have such problems with my butt muscles when TT that I often have to sit up out of position, cause my butt just going no way.

    I am tired of this pain.

    Is it a position thing.

    I am a tall rider 6'3 so I am not sure what to do.

    Does any one know about millers position, since he is tall also
     
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  2. 2LAP

    2LAP New Member

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    When lowering the shoulders, its usefull to shift the saddle forward to maintain the the 'hip angle' (i.e. between trunk and legs) close to that which you normaly cycle with. You may also need to increase your saddle height.

    Are you using TT bars?
     
  3. kiwiboy

    kiwiboy New Member

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    Yep!

    If my saddle is to high, does this induce this type of pain?

    I would like to know what the pros do.

    Keep back or move foward.
     
  4. will1988

    will1988 New Member

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    For a guide 60% of your weight should be over the back wheel and 40% of your weight should be over the front wheel so you should be able to adjust your bike so you have the correct weight distribution.
     
  5. serottarider

    serottarider New Member

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    I've ben seeing an average of one or two triathletes or time trialists a week for bicycle fittings over the past few months. While the road riders that I see are generally at least on a bike close to their correct size, my tri clients are often very poorly set up.
    Their bikes are often much too small - I just saw a 5'11" athlete on a 52 cm frame- and all too often their positioning is way too aggressive for their individual core strength and flexibility. This seems to be a trend nationally. I recently attended a fitting seminar with Christopher Kautz and speaking with the other attendees it seems that this is a very common trend, and likely to grow as tri becomes a popular mass event.
    Miller's position is tailored to his build, athletic ability, core strength and flexibility. Each athlete's needs in terms of position are different, and they will also vary somewhat with the planned event. An athlete can be positioned in a more aggressive position for an Olympic distance event than for a full Ironman, for example.
    Glute pain is most likely to be caused by a positioning problem, and needs to be addressed before it leads on to other biomechanical injuries.
    I don't know where you are in NZ, but I know that there are trained and highly competent bike fitting specialists out there because I've met one of them. I suggest that you do some research and find either a fitting specialist or a competent Tri coach (or one with a solid TT reputation) and get the bike fitted to your individual needs.
    Proper positioning will increase your power transmission, smooth your pedal stroke, improve your aerodynamics and should make you significantly faster once you've adapted to the changes.
    Good luck!
     
  6. andrewbradley

    andrewbradley New Member

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    No, saddle height of itself won't induce buttock pain assuming appropriate bar height. You would likely feel a too high saddle in the ham tendons.
    If you dont want to sit more upright a la Lance Armstrong then the only option is to move the saddle forward. Apparently he doesn't give away too much advantage to those in the forward positions (who probably look more like Ullrich) but he has the advantage of wind tunnel tests.

    A bit of trial and error is in order, nobody else can prescribe the perfect position for you. The pros don't all look the same on their bikes by any means.
     
  7. Celica

    Celica New Member

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    This is a great topic. I've been trying to fix my own TT position but it hasn't been easy. My tests on the computrainer show that my heart rate increases about 8 beats in about 2 minutes, by dropping down to the TT position, given the same power output and cadence. Then I'll sit back up and my HR drops back down in a couple of minutes. So far I've tried pushing my seat all the way forward, tilting the seat, slightly changing seat height, and focusing on flattening my back while in the TT position but there's been almost no change. Has anyone else tried this test? Maybe this is normal.
     
  8. taras0000

    taras0000 New Member

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    I know for myself, that when i was setting up my aero position on my track bike, i had to lower the seat about a centimeter, and move the seat forward about two cm. The reason that this worked for me was that it not only keeps your hip angle "similar". The reason i say similar is that the angle may be the same, but the direction that your legs are applying the force is still not maintained. ALthough you may have moved your saddle forward, it is a small adjustment compared to the radical change that your position has gone through. This may be the source of the pain in your ass. Generally in the aero position, your hamstrings are stretched out more than normal, so your glute muscles may be doing more work. By lowering your saddle a bit you can alleviate this stretch and bring your hamstrings into a more bioefficient position. can't say it will work for you but it did for me
     
  9. andrewbradley

    andrewbradley New Member

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    Thats a centimeter and a half change in effective saddle height. Your thighs must have noticed the increase in knee bend. Were you on shorter cranks?
    Not sure what you mean here about direction of force, the weight of your legs falls different for sure.
    If tightness of tuck means the hams are too stretched then yes, lower the saddle to feed them some slack via a more bent knee, but if you do that you actually tighten the tuck further making the hip angle even worse for the buttocks.

    Anythings worth a try, though, where there's no costs involved.
     
  10. Aztec

    Aztec New Member

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    Fascinating. My HR drops as I get lower. For example, if I'm on the drops at 140 bpm, when I pop up to 'no hands it' my HR will generally move up to -- and stay at -- 150-155 bpm.
     
  11. serottarider

    serottarider New Member

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    With a more forward position it's likely that you're firing your hamstrings a little later in the pedal stroke, viewing from the RH side of the bike at, perhaps, 7 o'clock compared with around 6 in a more traditional road position. In this position you can overload the knee, so it's very important to spin rather than mash.
    Using slightly shorter cranks is another way to protect the knees, encourage spinning and improve power while reducing muscular fatigue during longer (half Ironman and up) events.
     
  12. kiwiboy

    kiwiboy New Member

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    Have been T.T every week and the but pain has been coming at about 2-3 km into a 16km T.T.

    As soon as I increase my speed to about 42-43km/hr Comes on.

    I will see someone here in NZ.

    Man its anoying.

    I am a tall rider very similar to millar in build.
    Strong hamstrings, however not very flexiable.

    I have been creeping my seat back.
    Trial and error.

    I am going to overcome this.

    Thanks for your tips.

    I guess T.T position is a hard one to answer.
     
  13. andrewbradley

    andrewbradley New Member

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    I predict error all the way with this. With tight hams and buttock problems you have to reduce the tuck angle, no two ways about it.
    Why not raise your bars if you dont want to be forward?

    Being tall should make a "flat back" easier to get from a more "relaxed" position since cranks are relatively shorter but look at Indurain, he was tall and never got a "flat back" (possibly due to a toes down pedalling technique).

    What is your saddle setback anyway? (Drop a line from the saddle tip and measure distance to BB) The 5cm UCI limit gives a pretty conservative position unless you sit on the saddle nose.
     
  14. davef

    davef New Member

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    >What is your saddle setback anyway? (Drop a line from the >saddle tip and measure distance to BB) The 5cm UCI limit gives >a pretty conservative position unless you sit on the saddle nose

    My normal road bike position is 5cm back and going to the aero position I want to move it forward, or so several books say so.

    Without exceeding the UCI limit what can I do to "reduce the tuck angle"?
     
  15. andrewbradley

    andrewbradley New Member

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    Some riders seem to be able to perch on the end of the saddle all day long (eg Kelly). If you are already doing that there is truly nowhere to go but "illegality".

    As a long shot it is worth measuring your distance from KOPS since they allow you to use this as the forward limit instead of the 5cm setback, but I doubt 5cm behind bb will be behind KOPS unless you are very small.

    If you dont want to be at a perch you could get laughs and advantage with a shorter childrens/ladies saddle (not too short mind -45cm min IIRC).

    The 5cm rule is very stingy (cf the millionaires minimum weight rule) It favors the tall who can have a steeper seat angle (when traditionally it is smaller frames that have steeper seats). It also favors the long of femur.

    I wouldn't have allowed aero-bars in the first place.
     
  16. kiwiboy

    kiwiboy New Member

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    Is the measurement from saddle tip to BB,

    1. to the middle of the BB.
    2. to the start of the BB

    I am 9cm to the middle of the BB
    7cm to the start of the BB

    I was allot further foward but have so to say headed back.

    Have raised the bars up a bit.
     
  17. andrewbradley

    andrewbradley New Member

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    This is the measurement we want. Pursuiters and out and out tters can be on the 5cm UCI limit and on the end of the saddle. They could be 15cm forward of your position.

    What exactly is it you don't like about the forward position?
    You are raising the saddle (and bars) for the forward positions aren't you? Otherwise you could be getting the "I feel more powerful when i slide back on the saddle" effect which I reckon is basically the same thing as the "I feel more powerful on a higher saddle" effect (both positions giving increased leverage).

    Is the front end too short?
     
  18. velomanct

    velomanct New Member

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    try stretching before you get on your bike. it helps for me.
     
  19. davef

    davef New Member

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    >Is the front end too short?

    Do you mean is the stem too short?

    On my 56cm Kona Deluxe at 5cm back from the centre of the BB the front hub is just "in front" of the handlebar (in the aero position) AND that is with a 120mm stem. If I move further forward I would need an even longer stem, which I think start to become unobtainable.

    I suspect this frame is a bit on the small side (for me) to set up as a beginner's TT bike.

    I do notice that I want to slide back as you suggest, so will try raising the saddle a bit more.

    Thanks for the helpful advice.
     
  20. kiwiboy

    kiwiboy New Member

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    Don't laugh but I ride a old rolls seat real comfortable for me, maybe they are short.

    I think I was riding with the bars to low in a foward position.
     
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