Tip for Creaky Campy BB - Not Outboard/UltraTorque Design

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by litespeedguy, Jun 16, 2013.

  1. litespeedguy

    litespeedguy New Member

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    http://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/cartridge-bearing-type-bottom-bracket-service-bbt

    http://www.loctite.sg/sea/content_data/93755_Loctite_660_Quick_Metal_Retaining_Compound.pdf


    The first link above is to the Park Tool site - the 4th paragraph under "Installation of Cartridge Bottom Bracket" mentions the creak I'm referring to - the second link talks about Loctite 660 - this Loctite compound was found to be better than #242 for eliminating this particular creak - it was recommended to me by a friend and bike shop owner/mechanic after I pointed out this creaking sound when I would be out of the seat going uphill.

    the compound is smeared on the bearing surface , cups are reinstalled , allowed to cure overnight & the creaking stopped.

    it could also be used on non-Campy BB designs that are similar .
     
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  2. CAMPYBOB

    CAMPYBOB Well-Known Member

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    I wish someone would come up with the cure for the crap assed bearings, junk assed seals and the insufferable clicking/ticking noises the UltraTorque BB puts out!

    I generally grease those outboard cups. Maybe I'll pull the next one down and Loctite it place...DESPITE the fact that never in my life have I Loctited any bearing cup in place, let alone an aluminum cup in and aluminum frame insert.

    I think I'll try Loctite Blue though. With 660 2-part and a clean joint that thing may never come apart again without applying heat.

    Did your friend, the bike shop mechanic, tell you how many of those 660 Loctite jobs he has successfully undone?
     
  3. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    I'd never heard of that being an issue with Campy Square taper BB's, but that doesn't mean it wasn't. I've got Ultra-Torque cranks whose bearings have been dead quiet for as long as I've had them.
     
  4. litespeedguy

    litespeedguy New Member

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    " Did your friend, the bike shop mechanic, tell you how many of those 660 Loctite jobs he has successfully undone? "


    Bob , haven't had to cross that bridge - but I was reading the spec sheets on Blue and the 660 - Blue seems to be aimed at threads whereas the 660 is meant for curved surfaces , ideal for this application and creaking issue - I would think the grease would break down over a short period of time and the creaks would return .

    IMO the root cause of the problem is poor machining tolerances which might be why Campy came out with the power and ultra torque designs - in addition to wanting to come out with something new to boost sales and compete with Shimano.

    But also yourself and alienator seem to have different opinions on the ultra-torque - would be great to hear from others regards their experience(s) with ultra torque .
     
  5. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    FWIW. Try this ...

    • lose both the C-Clip & Wavy Washer ... really ... THAT will allow the "bearings" to be fully nested in the cups
    • OR, to put it another way, no superfluous parts, no superfluous noise
    [*] the Hirth Coupling meshes fine ...
    [*] NO guarantees as the the results with YOUR bike(s)!!!
    • but, I want to say that my accidentally determined remedy seems to work well for me with a standard 68mm, English threaded BB shell

    BTW. If you find that it matters, adjust your cleats, accordingly, for the slightly narrower Q-Factor ...

    • the front derailleur's STOPS will certainly need to be tweaked, regardless ...

    AND, remember that the drive side of the crank is only prevented from falling out of the BB/-shell by the chain!

    Obviously, for people whose UT BB isn't clicking, then there is no reason to remove the C-Clip & Wavy Washer unless they want a narrower Q-Factor ...

    • THAT might be a good thing for those people whose pedaling motion results in heel strikes against the crank arms because after they adjust their cleats, accordingly, because there will be more heel/crank clearance ...
     
  6. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    Note that Campy was pretty much forced to come out with a crank with a 24mm BB spindle (i.e. Ultra Torque) by the industry that had largely moved to oversize BB spindles and by consumers who rightly or wrongly thought that they needed a crank with a stiffer BB. The move to the 24mm spindle necessitated the move to outboard bearings since using internal bearings on the BB would severely compromise BB bearing life and would also decrease BB stiffness. A large number (but perhaps not all) of Ultra Torque creaking issues can be traced back to poor BB prep before installation, specifically not facing the BB shell and also not insuring the BB shell fits within the quasi-narrow range specified by Campy. There is new Campy product coming out that is a "big update" to a long existence Campy component. It could very well be that big update is a new Campy crank system, especially as a number of insiders have said that Campy has been working on a new crank. Perhaps a Campy crank with a 30mm spindle?
     
  7. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    FYI. Your crib sheet needs to be corrected ...

    • the spindle diameter of the Ultra Torque & Power Torque cranksets is 25mm
    • the spindle diameter of a Shimano Hollowtech II & FSA MegaExo crankset is 24mm
    • GXP spindles are 25mm on the driveside & 24mm on the non-driveside

    The cartridge bearings which Shimano & FSA use have a 25mm ID, but the plastic seal reduces the inner diameter to 24mm ...

    The FSA (?) ceramic bearing cartridges have an inner diameter of 24mm.

    I have NOT tried it, yet, but I am under the impression that the cartridge bearings which Shimano & FSA use can be substituted for the Campagnolo cartridge bearings since the OD is the same size, too.

    • BTW. I determined that the clip & wavy washer where NOT necessary when I was testing an Ultra Torque crankset after ascertaining that the UT crank could be installed in FSA cups (sans bearings)
    • Shimano Hollowtech II BB cups (sans bearings) would need a minor 'modification' to allow a UT crank to fit

    I just have not taken the time to compare the widths of the the cartridges to test the practicality, or not, of using the bearings from a Hollowtech II BB on a UT or PT crankset.

    Campagnolo cartridge bearings lack an inner seal because the exposed bearings allow for re-packing -- a philosophical difference from how Shimano looks at their components ... each has an advantage.

    FWIW, As far as facing the BB shell goes ...

    I know that there has been a belief that facing the BB shell matters.

    Perhaps it might be necessary to face a BB shell if the threads are so loose that the BB cup can be wiggled prior to the last turn; and then, I would readily agree; but, I have honestly never encountered a CNC'd BB cup + BB shell where that was the case although certainly there could be some instances where that has been found by others ...

    Facing COULD MATTER when there are no threads to maintain the orientation ... as with a headset ... but, it has usually been done by the framebuilder, if-and-when necessary.

    Because the UT's Hirth Coupling is apparently designed to allow for the smaller Q-Factor (i.e., it must be only about 140mm vs. 145mm), the clicking can probably be eliminated-or-mitigated by simply tightening the connecting bolt by another 1/4 turn, or more ...

    • yes, THAT is probably in excess of the spec ...
    • MY preference would be to simply eliminate the offending components as I have previously suggested
     
  8. CAMPYBOB

    CAMPYBOB Well-Known Member

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    Alf,

    Thanks for the tips!

    I have had two bikes/three UltraTorque crankset tick/click.

    All the usual tick/click suspects chased down with no effect on eliminating the tick/click.

    What DID eliminate or at least minimize the noise was:

    Bike 1. Doubled up the wave washer adding more pre-load. BB was within width tolerance and machined faces were parallel and square. Cups removed and greased, internally grease. Seals greased. Greased Hirth joint and tension bolt.

    Bike 2. Doubled up the wave washer and added a 1 MM spacer behind the left side cup. BB was within width tolerance and machined faces were parallel and square. New bearings fitted (inside seals were destroyed in only 7,800 miles), new outboard backup seals fitted. Cups greased inside and out. Greased Hirth joint and tension bolt.

    Crankset 3. Doubled up wave washer. Injected grease into 'good' used bearings. Removed and greased cups inside and out. Greased Hirth joint and tension bolt.

    All three bearing cup sets are Record. Two of the cranksets are Chorus and one is Record.

    Yeah...that wire C-clip and wave washer is a retarded design. Absolutely zero control over preload and who the hell ever heard of controlling axial movement with a Belleville spring and retaining clip?



    FWIW. Try this ...

    • lose both the C-Clip & Wavy Washer ... really ... THAT will allow the "bearings" to be fully nested in the cups
    • OR, to put it another way, no superfluous parts, no superfluous noise
    [*] the Hirth Coupling meshes fine ...
    [*] NO guarantees as the the results with YOUR bike(s)!!!
    • but, I want to say that my accidentally determined remedy seems to work well for me with a standard 68mm, English threaded BB shell

    BTW. If you find that it matters, adjust your cleats, accordingly, for the slightly narrower Q-Factor ...

    • the front derailleur's STOPS will certainly need to be tweaked, regardless ...

    AND, remember that the drive side of the crank is only prevented from falling out of the BB/-shell by the chain!

    Obviously, for people whose UT BB isn't clicking, then there is no reason to remove the C-Clip & Wavy Washer unless they want a narrower Q-Factor ...

    • THAT might be a good thing for those people whose pedaling motion results in heel strikes against the crank arms because after they adjust their cleats, accordingly, because there will be more heel/crank clearance ...
     
  9. litespeedguy

    litespeedguy New Member

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    Thanks to everyone for your time and feedback and also for providing a lot of good information ; Alfeng touched on "facing" and it got me thinking - if I decide at some point to move to UT from my current Campy BB setup which I guess would be called pre-UT ?? , would it be advisable to look at a re-face ? I read that with larger spindle size parallel faces are more critical ; also, is the threading of those UT cups the same as pre-UT or would I need the threads chased to accommodate the new UT cups ?
     
  10. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    Whether you've got an English threaded 68mm BB shell or an Italian threaded shell, Campagnolo has the BB cups you need for a UT crankset. Also, unless there's been odd damage done to an already faced BB, it won't need refaced. Just be sure the face of the BB shell on each side is clear of paint and/or clear coat.
     
  11. litespeedguy

    litespeedguy New Member

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    Ok Alienator , thx again !!!
     
  12. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    Quote: Originally Posted by litespeedguy .

    Thanks to everyone for your time and feedback and also for providing a lot of good information ; Alfeng touched on "facing" and it got me thinking - if I decide at some point to move to UT from my current Campy BB setup which I guess would be called pre-UT ?? , would it be advisable to look at a re-face ? I read that with larger spindle size parallel faces are more critical ; also, is the threading of those UT cups the same as pre-UT or would I need the threads chased to accommodate the new UT cups ?


    YOU can check your BB shell by doing the following ...

    1. remove the existing BB
    2. if present, remove the under-BB cable guide [because the bolt which holds it to the frame most likely protrudes into the BB shell]
    3. roll up a sheet of printer paper
    4. slide the paper into the BB shell
    5. run one edge of the paper flush with one side of the BB shell
    6. square the OTHER end of the

    If the edge of the paper can be made flush & there are no high-or-low spots, then it does NOT need to be faced ...

    Repeat on the other side ...

    Assess.

    I suppose that SOMETIMES a new frame will need to have its BB shell faced & chased, but it is so unlikely post-1980 (heck, post-1970 ... maybe, earlier!) that 'I' have to wonder how-or-where THAT "conventional wisdom" originated ...

    • MAYBE, I've been lucky ... my frames have all come off-the-peg

    • "custom" frames probably DO need to be faced at some time during the fabrication BECAUSE the castings which may be used ARE comparatively raw ...
    • but, the BB shell should really have been faced before the frame was painted, IMO

    That is, 'I' doubt that anything more expensive than a WallyWorld-or-equivalent bike/-looking-object would need to have its BB faced ... and, if a bike which was sold at a bike shop needs to have its BB faced, then I say "shame on the frame builder" ... and/or bike shop!!

    • the threads only need to be chased if someone cross-threaded a cup into the BB shell OR if someone sprayed some paint into the BB shell OR if the threads somehow developed some corrosion which could not be cleaned out with a small wire brush ...

    In other words, IMO, your Litespeed should be good-to-go ...

    BUT, checking the BB shell using the fore mentioned method will only take a few minutes ...

    So, only have your BB faced if you want to pay your LBS for what will probably be unnecessary work which may actually ruin the frame by making the BB shell asymmetrical if your shop's wrench is ham fisted (some ARE!).
     
  13. litespeedguy

    litespeedguy New Member

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    good stuff Alfeng , thx !!!!!
     
  14. CAMPYBOB

    CAMPYBOB Well-Known Member

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    "...Campy BB setup which I guess would be called pre-UT..."

    UltraTorque was introduced in 2007 and PowerTorque splined (available on Veloce, Centaur and Athena lines) in the 2011 model year (2010).

    I don't know what nomenclature, if anything, Campy referred to their square taper cartridge system. All I ever heard it called was "cartridge BB". I think the only cartridge system Campy now offers is the Pista/track BB.
     
  15. litespeedguy

    litespeedguy New Member

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    thanks Bob , the cartridge BB can still be found online , e.g. Excel Sports , etc . but I agree it'll be tough to find in a few years , also, cups for the head bearings of my internal HS can still be obtained from Litespeed at a premium but that's a similar issue .

    how do you feel about Campy's electronic shift system - to me it seems like trips to the LBS could increase and a hefty service charge along with it ; at least with the manual system you can trouble shoot a lot on your own .
     
  16. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    FYI. The cartridge bearings used in Campagnolo's square taper BBs can actually be re-packed AND/OR replaced ...

    The internal headset bearings for your Litespeed frame may have its generic information embossed on one (?) of its seals (?) ...
     
  17. CAMPYBOB

    CAMPYBOB Well-Known Member

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    "how do you feel about Campy's electronic shift system"

    I like the concept. At $2K-$2,400 for Athena the prices have got to come down some for me to try it. And they will get less expensive over time, I'm guessing.

    "- to me it seems like trips to the LBS could increase and a hefty service charge along with it ; at least with the manual system you can trouble shoot a lot on your own ."

    Agreed. A diagnostic unit to go with the group set would be mandatory for me to own EPS as I service my own equipment. Sitting around with multi-meter to check wiring, a spare battery and Interface Unit sure is a lot more complicated than spotting a kinked shift cable...although rebuilding a Campy mechanical shifter isn't something to be taken lightly either.
     
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