Tires too small for 650 C rim??

[Noel Llopis]

My wife's Cannondale R300 compact has 650 C tires with Sunrims ME14A rims. Up until now it had IRC
Paperline Plus tires with wire bead, but one of the annoying things was how hard it was to put them
on (as in, if it happens when she's riding, she might as well get a ride back).

So now that they're worn and ready to replace them, we bought a pair of Continental GrandPrix 650 C
tires with kevlar bead, assuming that would make it easier to put them on the rim.

I was pretty surprised when I realized that not only they weren't easier to put on, I wasn't even
able to put them on at all! I've seen hard tires to put on, but these just seem too small!

The tires read: Continental GrandPrix 20-571 (26 x 3/4). I thought that 571 was the "normal"
measurement for 650 C tires for a compact road bike (http://sheldonbrown.com/tire-sizing.html). So
why can't we put them on? They feel way too small.

My other question is, how do I find what tires will comfortably fit those rims? I don't want to buy
another pair of a different brand and end up with similar results.

Thanks.

--Noel

 

[Werehatrack]

On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 18:58:34 GMT, Noel Llopis
<[email protected]> may have said:

>My wife's Cannondale R300 compact has 650 C tires with Sunrims ME14A rims.

Ummm. are you talking about *these* ME14A Sunrims?

http://www.sun-ringle.com/ShowRoom/ROAD/Rims/me14a.html

622mm. That's a 700C, not a 650C.

>Up until now it had IRC Paperline Plus tires with wire bead, but one of the annoying things was
>how hard it was to put them on (as in, if it happens when she's riding, she might as well get a
>ride back).

Not an uncommon problem.

>So now that they're worn and ready to replace them, we bought a pair of Continental GrandPrix 650 C
>tires with kevlar bead, assuming that would make it easier to put them on the rim.

Did you read the metric sizing information on the old tires first?

>I was pretty surprised when I realized that not only they weren't easier to put on, I wasn't even
>able to put them on at all! I've seen hard tires to put on, but these just seem too small!

Well, I think that's probably because they *are* too small.

>The tires read: Continental GrandPrix 20-571 (26 x 3/4). I thought that 571 was the "normal"
>measurement for 650 C tires for a compact road bike (http://sheldonbrown.com/tire-sizing.html). So
>why can't we put them on? They feel way too small.

Yes, those are 650C-compatible tires. But the ME14A isn't a 650C, and the R300 CDale wore a 700C
according to the specs.

>My other question is, how do I find what tires will comfortably fit those rims? I don't want to buy
>another pair of a different brand and end up with similar results.

I believe the hints are now obvious.

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[Werehatrack]

I take it back; the R300 *Compact* was indeed equipped with 650c ME14A rims, which apparently aren't
on the Sun-Ringle site.

I think I'd take an actual measurement of the rims on the bike, or look at the markings on the old
tires, befor emaking any further assumptions.

The Contis purchased as replacements may just be of that Kevlar ilk that has to be stretched
severely the first time. This is, in my limited experience, more common with Kevlar-bead road tires
than with Kevlar-bead mtb tires.

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[Werehatrack]

On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 20:27:04 GMT, Werehatrack
<[email protected]> may have spoke too soon, and corrects
himself thusly:

Ignore previous comments. It appears that CDale was getting a Sun rim that's not on the Sun website.

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[Zog The Undenia]

Noel Llopis wrote:
> My wife's Cannondale R300 compact has 650 C tires with Sunrims ME14A rims. Up until now it had IRC
> Paperline Plus tires with wire bead, but one of the annoying things was how hard it was to put
> them on (as in, if it happens when she's riding, she might as well get a ride back).
>
> So now that they're worn and ready to replace them, we bought a pair of Continental GrandPrix 650
> C tires with kevlar bead, assuming that would make it easier to put them on the rim.
>
> I was pretty surprised when I realized that not only they weren't easier to put on, I wasn't even
> able to put them on at all! I've seen hard tires to put on, but these just seem too small!
>
> The tires read: Continental GrandPrix 20-571 (26 x 3/4). I thought that 571 was the "normal"
> measurement for 650 C tires for a compact road bike (http://sheldonbrown.com/tire-sizing.html). So
> why can't we put them on? They feel way too small.
>
> My other question is, how do I find what tires will comfortably fit those rims? I don't want to
> buy another pair of a different brand and end up with similar results.

Kevlar tyres are usually much harder to mount then steel-beaded tyres. I've actually had bleeding
fingertips where my nails have cut into the flesh from fitting the things.

After the first time they usually go back on a bit more easily.

The basic fault is usually with the rim; either it's fractionally oversize or the well in the middle
isn't very deep.

 

[Noel Llopis]

Werehatrack wrote:

> On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 20:27:04 GMT, Werehatrack <[email protected]> may have spoke too
> soon, and corrects himself thusly:
>
> Ignore previous comments. It appears that CDale was getting a Sun rim that's not on the Sun
> website.

I actually found it here: http://www.sun-ringle.com/ShowRoom/ROAD/Rims/me14a.html

The tires it came with are IRC Paperlight Plus 650c. That's all it says.

Any suggestions on how to stretch the kevlar the first time I install the tire? Put it on without a
tube and use the levers to stretch it maybe?

Funny because on my 700c road bike, putting on kevlar tires has always been a lot easier than using
wire beads. Maybe it was luck of the draw. Too bad though because that was a big part of getting the
new tires so she could easily repair it if she ever had to.

--Noel

 

[Werehatrack]

On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 22:58:14 GMT, Noel Llopis
<[email protected]> may have said:

>Werehatrack wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 20:27:04 GMT, Werehatrack <[email protected]> may have spoke too
>> soon, and corrects himself thusly:
>>
>> Ignore previous comments. It appears that CDale was getting a Sun rim that's not on the Sun
>> website.
>
>I actually found it here: http://www.sun-ringle.com/ShowRoom/ROAD/Rims/me14a.html
>
>The tires it came with are IRC Paperlight Plus 650c. That's all it says.
>
>Any suggestions on how to stretch the kevlar the first time I install the tire? Put it on without a
>tube and use the levers to stretch it maybe?
>
>Funny because on my 700c road bike, putting on kevlar tires has always been a lot easier than using
>wire beads. Maybe it was luck of the draw. Too bad though because that was a big part of getting
>the new tires so she could easily repair it if she ever had to.

There's a long lever device I've seen (the Park TL-10) which slips a lot of tough tires on more
easily; it's hardly practical to carry around, though. Otherwise, a little soap on the beads *may*
help, but you're really going to have to be careful about avoiding snakebite punctures.

Thus far, I haven't found it necessary to buy the Park TL-10 tool, but if I get another hypernasty
tire set handed to me, I may have to invest in one. The street price for that tool runs in the
vicinity of $25 to $30 typically.

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[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <[email protected]>,
Werehatrack <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 22:58:14 GMT, Noel Llopis <[email protected]> may have said:
>
> >Werehatrack wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 20:27:04 GMT, Werehatrack <[email protected]> may have spoke too
> >> soon, and corrects himself thusly:
> >>
> >> Ignore previous comments. It appears that CDale was getting a Sun rim that's not on the Sun
> >> website.
> >
> >I actually found it here: http://www.sun-ringle.com/ShowRoom/ROAD/Rims/me14a.html
> >
> >The tires it came with are IRC Paperlight Plus 650c. That's all it says.
> >
> >Any suggestions on how to stretch the kevlar the first time I install the tire? Put it on without
> >a tube and use the levers to stretch it maybe?
> >
> >Funny because on my 700c road bike, putting on kevlar tires has always been a lot easier than
> >using wire beads. Maybe it was luck of the draw. Too bad though because that was a big part of
> >getting the new tires so she could easily repair it if she ever had to.
>
> There's a long lever device I've seen (the Park TL-10) which slips a lot of tough tires on more
> easily; it's hardly practical to carry around, though. Otherwise, a little soap on the beads *may*
> help, but you're really going to have to be careful about avoiding snakebite punctures.
>
> Thus far, I haven't found it necessary to buy the Park TL-10 tool, but if I get another hypernasty
> tire set handed to me, I may have to invest in one. The street price for that tool runs in the
> vicinity of $25 to $30 typically.

http://www.parktool.com/tools/TL_10.shtml

It's not the same, but Crank Bros. make a nifty folding tire lever that costs much less, weighs and
fits about where a standard 3-pack of levers does, and works similarly to the TL-10:

http://www.crankbrothers.com/products/accessories_speedlever.php

MSRP $6. Your dealer may sell for less. Mine did.

It's a satisfactory tire lever. When I first got it, the plastic stuck really nicely to the tires,
making for dreadful tire levering. But after a few uses, the plastic tool seemed to take some rubber
or some wear, or maybe I got better at using it, or I took Crank Bros. advice to spit on the tool
(really, it's on the website. Check the FAQ), and it now works well.

It probably suffers from being much more lightly built than the TL-10, but I think you'd find it
quite useful. I've been fairly happy using it, including during a couple of commuting tire changes.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email protected] http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

 

[A Muzi]

Noel Llopis wrote:

> My wife's Cannondale R300 compact has 650 C tires with Sunrims ME14A rims. Up until now it had IRC
> Paperline Plus tires with wire bead, but one of the annoying things was how hard it was to put
> them on (as in, if it happens when she's riding, she might as well get a ride back).
>
> So now that they're worn and ready to replace them, we bought a pair of Continental GrandPrix 650
> C tires with kevlar bead, assuming that would make it easier to put them on the rim.
>
> I was pretty surprised when I realized that not only they weren't easier to put on, I wasn't even
> able to put them on at all! I've seen hard tires to put on, but these just seem too small!
>
> The tires read: Continental GrandPrix 20-571 (26 x 3/4). I thought that 571 was the "normal"
> measurement for 650 C tires for a compact road bike (http://sheldonbrown.com/tire-sizing.html). So
> why can't we put them on? They feel way too small.
>
> My other question is, how do I find what tires will comfortably fit those rims? I don't want to
> buy another pair of a different brand and end up with similar results.

Just wondering- is the rim liner rubber? Those hollow section rims should have cotton or
polyurethane and in any event the rim liner should not occlude the bead set of the rim.

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[Pete Biggs]

Zog The Undeniable wrote:
> Kevlar tyres are usually much harder to mount then steel-beaded tyres. I've actually had bleeding
> fingertips where my nails have cut into the flesh from fitting the things.

Are you sure that's not just coincidence with the particular models you've used?

I've had 23mm folding tyres that have been much easier to fit on the same rims than certain wider
rigid tyres and vice versa. I'm not sure the beads themselves have a lot to do with it - except for
the very minor inconvenience of some folding tyres being rather flat and floppy when brand new.

> After the first time they usually go back on a bit more easily.
>
> The basic fault is usually with the rim; either it's fractionally oversize or the well in the
> middle isn't very deep.

I agree there's variation there but why would that affect kevlar-beaded tyres more than steel, or
some tyres more than others? Tyre bead diameter also varies - both kevlar and steel bead types.

~PB

 

[Werehatrack]

On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 18:07:45 -0000, "Pete Biggs"
<pbiggmellon{remove_fruit}[email protected]> may have said:

>I agree there's variation there but why would that affect kevlar-beaded tyres more than steel, or
>some tyres more than others? Tyre bead diameter also varies - both kevlar and steel bead types.

I can confirm that the bead diameter varies from tire model to tire model on both wire- and Kevlar-
bead types, and I can also confirm that on at least two different sets of Kevlar-bead tires that I
have mounted, they came off a week or more later *and reinstalled* more easily than they went on the
first time. The only explanation i can find for this is that the Kevlar beads are subject to some
stretching in service. It has not been my experience that the same is true for wire beads. With
those, the history has been "first time trouble, *always* trouble." I've also noted that road rims
tend to have more problems with hard-to-install tires than mtb rims; given that the latter typically
have more of a drop in the center to assist in tire installation, this is not surprising at all.

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[Zog The Undenia]

Pete Biggs wrote:

> Zog The Undeniable wrote:
>
>>Kevlar tyres are usually much harder to mount then steel-beaded tyres. I've actually had bleeding
>>fingertips where my nails have cut into the flesh from fitting the things.
>
>
> Are you sure that's not just coincidence with the particular models you've used?

The combinations I've tried are Specialized Umma Gumma somethings on Wolber AT400 rims (tighter than
steel beads, but not too bad), Vredestein S-Licks on Sun Rhyno Lite rims (very painful) and
Specialized Turbo S on Mavic Open 4CD (gave up after an hour and committed the cardinal sin of using
steel tyre levers).

Could be coincidence but others have told me they find kevlar beads a problem, and Specialized
specifically mention potential problems in their packaging for the kevlar tyres.