To Much training in Hardest Zones Possible?

Hi All,
So just got a power meter installed and did my big sportive I've been building up to. 75 Miles around the sunny Isle of Anglesey in North Wales. Obviously my guides etc about training load and such are all a bit new and the data is not settled. Needless to say strava probably isnt the most "Scientific", but likely it knows more than me.

So it says based on my FTP test I did on trainer a couple of days before 181 that I should rest for 5 days. I did get quite carried away during the Sportive but there we go my first time in a bunch.

I went out today for a gentle "Recovery" ride and it just didn't work out like that at all. This happened http://app.strava.com/activities/79976062.

I cant get clear of the hills to be able to go on gentle recovery rides. How much damage is this likely to do to my training and recovery. What in you're crowd sourced wisdom would be best. Lots of Turbo recovery rides maybe watching the Vuelta? Or just get better as it is.

I've been riding now since Jun 24, 2013 and the hard hills haven't hampered my growth, I couldn't get up the smallest 3 months ago. I have no history in briskly walking before June this year since I was 16 so its been a challenge but Loving it.

I just didn't realize exactly how much time I'm spending pushing these zones 6 + 7. Is this a big thing or should I just roll with it and see where it takes me. Everywhere I go has a hill in all directions and it takes a minimum of threshold or more to get up them.

Where do I go from now to get some good fitness for next year, Looking to do some races, Do I play the Long game or just hit it with a big hammer and go for it.

Thanks in advance for any help. Kind Regards Jonathan

 

Quote: Originally Posted by Subliminal-SS .

I just didn't realize exactly how much time I'm spending pushing these zones 6 + 7. Is this a big thing or should I just roll with it and see where it takes me. Everywhere I go has a hill in all directions and it takes a minimum of threshold or more to get up them.



You see to lack knowledge about shifting. The purpose of gearing is to allow you to go up the hills easier. Shift to the small chainring (front) and the large cog (back). That should make going up the hills easier than using the large chainring and small cog. If it does not make it easy enough, you need to get lower gears for your bicycle. If it is too easy, you have lots of combinations to chose from.

You goal on the hills is to hold your power constant - about what you do on the flats. Your speed will be lower.

 

Sorry. maybe I wasn't clear but I'm in the lowest gears in all of these hils.

I would rather not also change the cassette/chainrings etc. Id rather just train elsewhere, even indoors while im "a bit Sh*t"

and then be in a better place next year. 11-26 Cassette 130mm. 53/39 on front.

 

Jonathan, I think you coming close to answering this for yourself just as I experienced much of the same a couple of years ago.

Training with a power meter begins to expose things as you just found out that those not training with a power meter do not understand. I started to see this immediately when I first got a PM and saw that my typical group ride was just about all very short hard surges as the group seem to sprint each hill and coast down the other side. They would do this for 60 to 70 miles and that is not such a bad thing for them since their usual week has no training and the Saturday group ride was like an unauthorized road race with no mercy rules.

At the same time I was fully involved with these weekend warrior type of rides I was also lurking on this forum reading how important it is to find a training load and structure that allows one to train just enough to promote endurance fitness, but not so hard that it has a negative impact to screw up following training days. I was also learning how beneficial it can be to train for sustained efforts of 15 minutes or greater to improve endurance. So with reading threads here by good advisors and ignoring those who are the typical forum trolls I started making adjustment and finding out what I could and could not do for consistent training loads in order to build up my fitness.

Because of where I live and my work schedule training indoors during the week is about my only choice. What is nice on one side is it being a good environment to hold as near consistent power output for uninterrupted periods of time. On the weekend I have come up with a couple of routes where I can hold big blocks of time at sustained power output with not much traffic and flatter roads.

I still go to those group rides now and then just for fun or sometimes I hammer hard solo, but try not to do this if it has a negative impact on following training days. Having software like WKO+ and observing the PMC one starts to see the trends and can also see the little mistakes or learn some lessons if one is self-coached. Not near as good as having a good coach, but not too bad using the chart as a guide.

For my personal goals one of those is to try to get in at least 10 quality hours of training per week and I can testify that if I do hard rides like you describe I will fall well short of that time goal because my legs will need more recovery time. I am one of many here that probably agree that a daily diet in the range of L3/SST/L4 allows one to get enough stimulation for endurance fitness and yet not feel burned out. Even for me I cannot do a daily diet of L4 and need to throw in a day or two of something as pure L3 and on the weekend rides I do 5 hour rides that have a lot of L2.

my half cent contribution since I am learning as well.

 

Hi felt, Thanks for you're contribution, In you're experience would you say that you lowered the intensity because you couldn't fulfill you're training diet according to hours or because you found it to limit you're growth.

The reason I ask is because I can probably manage about 8-10 hours a week. I have been doing this recently, I would not say that I felt fatigued by this even though almost all of it is always above L3+4 plus.

My legs don't feel like they are tired and I feel I could continue to push as I am now for about 8-10 hours but am worried that I'm hindering progress in much the same way 10 hours of L1 riding would be a throwaway?

For example on my long Sportive I was completely beasted by some people who I clearly shouldn't have been riding along with 2-3 months into my cycling but I thought what the hell I wont be riding with anyone for a good 6 months so may aswel. But after 1 day of life I was back up my 1000fter and felt great.

I should probably just carry on really and listen to my body take an easy ride when I feel tired and build back up again. But heck we're all here because when were not on the bike were obsessing about it right.

Ill soon see if I get some huge gains over the winter in comparison to the 6 weeks or so of good riding I have left outside here.

 

Quote: Originally Posted by Subliminal-SS .
Hi felt, Thanks for you're contribution, In you're experience would you say that you lowered the intensity because you couldn't fulfill you're training diet according to hours or because you found it to limit you're growth.




In my experience I adjusted for both of your reasons. Please note that this may be exclusive to my DNA/genetics as I am a slow gainer in endurance sports

1. I could not fulfill the structured training hours because the intensity was just too much for me to recover overnight and be ready to hit those target levels the next day.
2. Because I could not hit those target levels the next day my training was inconsistent and as a by product my growth was limited.


It's just a matter of time before you get the feel how to balance out intensity. I am not near as experienced as someone like Dave or RapdaddyO to read into your posts and give advice as I am at the same point of figuring out what I need to do to put in enough stress, but not too much so that it has a negative impact on training consistently week to week. I've just about got if figured out for my weekly schedule or at least it has been going well for about a year now.

Best wishes

 

Quote: Originally Posted by Subliminal-SS .
Sorry. maybe I wasn't clear but I'm in the lowest gears in all of these hils.

I would rather not also change the cassette/chainrings etc. Id rather just train elsewhere, even indoors while im "a bit Sh*t"

and then be in a better place next year. 11-26 Cassette 130mm. 53/39 on front.


A 12-30 cassette is cheap.

----

Just for reference I use a 16-30 and 50/34. (I do have spare parts and could ride with an 11-23 and 54/39. But ...)

 

Quote: Originally Posted by Felt_Rider .

Please note that this may be exclusive to my DNA/genetics as I am a slow gainer in endurance sports

It's just a matter of time before you get the feel how to balance out intensity. I am not near as experienced as someone like Dave or RapdaddyO to read into your posts and give advice as I am at the same point of figuring out what I need to do to put in enough stress, but not too much so that it has a negative impact on training consistently week to week. I've just about got if figured out for my weekly schedule or at least it has been going well for about a year now.




A) Goes without saying for sure.

B) I'm glad that you have found you're balance that is paying good dividends. Needless to say I've not even been cycling long enough to know this balance or capability for myself. Structure is certainly something that I struggle with. But is the most important part for sure. I work shifts unfortunately and these change like crazy.

At the moment I'm going try and do the 3 HIIT sessions at Z5, Z6, Z7 supplemented with rides when I can get out at Z3-Z4 depending on the legs for 2-4 hours at a time. I'm certainly aware of the benefits of the LSD rides each one I take I feel like I get a new set of lungs at the moment but time, weather and sunlight unfortunately don't permit such rides anymore. Note this is all based on what I feel I have been doing before and feel like I'm improving at a good rate. When I started I couldn't get halfway up a half mile hill at 5% gradient. Of course with the other side of the coin I've read alot into getting initial fitness quickly and then plateauing, which is what I'm certainly looking to avoid.

 

Quote: Originally Posted by Subliminal-SS .
Hi felt, Thanks for you're contribution, In you're experience would you say that you lowered the intensity because you couldn't fulfill you're training diet according to hours or because you found it to limit you're growth.

The reason I ask is because I can probably manage about 8-10 hours a week. I have been doing this recently, I would not say that I felt fatigued by this even though almost all of it is always above L3+4 plus.


Subliminal, how exactly did you go about establishing your FTP i.e 20 min test on your trainer? 30min? Also, what are you using as a guideline to set up your training zones? If you are referring to the zones I think you are referring to then 8-10 hours at L3+4 is a significant workload. In fact, during "in season" training most world cup xc racers only train at that volume, and right around that intensity since the winners usually finish these events around 90 minutes.

At any rate being new to cycling and power meters can definitely expose you to an overwhelming amount of information so take your time and enjoy the learning process. Sounds like you have the right idea of listening to your body. This should always be your guideline for how hard and when you should train. However, powermeters give you the added benefit of being able to quantify your workload per ride, per week, per month, etc. In order to do this you first need to firmly establish what your baseline fitness level is, your FTP, then begin experimenting with the workload you can except within a given amount of time that allows you to reach your fitness goals. If your FTP test was a success and you truly can accept 8-10 hours of L3-l4 work well then maybe you can accept more work and still see improvements? Maybe not and you discover that around 11 hours you start to go backwards. If that’s the case you have discovered your physiological limit at this point in time and you know not to cross that line.

 

Hi bmoberg,

For my test I did a 1 hour session pushing hard indoors on a turbo trainer. I was in discomfort but i always find motivation hard unless its broken down or competative.

i.e. 5 min HIIT are ok. 20-30 mins at Threshold I find hard. So im willing to say that initial control test was under my actual FTP.

So the next couple of days passed and I did my large Sportive 75 miles Moving time 04:28 at WAP of 214W. Which ive now set as my FTP. I was pushing all the way trying to keep up with some good good club riders and if it wasn't for my competitive nature and having watched Tony Martin in the Vuelta i probably wouldn't have done it like that on my own. Oh well it was good fun.

So then went up my favorite mountain a day later and got a WAP of 227. The 16 mins on the ascent side was 262W but that was holding back at the bottom because it ends with 350w+ for 5 mins.

So from all this I'm taking right about 210W to the my current FTP subject to change when I finally get a good solid test in. Would you say its worth working with kilojoules for workload or is this pointless and better to go for time in specific zones?

Touble is at the moment I'm also Anemic since I had a stomach Ulser 4 months ago and my blood tests revealed I have no iron stores. I'm working on that with a doctor though. Just makes it tough as I may be getting no gains at all but might just be getting my blood back healthy.


Edit
To answer the other question
I'm referring to the following Zones/Levels I've set myself for the next 6 weeks

Z1 Active Recovery 1 - 118 W Z2 Endurance 119 - 162 W Z3 Tempo 163 - 194 W Z4 Threshold 195 - 226 W Z5 VO2Max 227 - 259 W Z6 Anaerobic 260 - 324 W Z7 Neuromuscular 324+ W

 

If I'm reading your post correctly you set your FTP based on your 75 mile WAP of 214? FTP by definition is your average power for an all out 1 hour effort. The significance of this number is that in clinical trials is has shown to correlate closely with lactic threshold.
Most resources online will set up training zones based off of your FTP not your average power for four hours. This would probably explain why you are able to spend long duration in your threshold zone. If I had to guess your FTP is actually probably around 245-250W. What was your WAP for the 1 hour indoor trainer session? Even that number is likely to underestimate your FTP but it is a good starting point.

In terms of assessing workload, kj is simply a measure of energy expenditure during a ride. It does nothing in terms of telling you how much strain you have put on your body. This means if you want to use kj to quantify workload/stress then you have to draw a parallel between the type of work your doing (zone your riding in) and the kj's your capable of producing in that zone. It's a little tricky. You will come to find that energy expenditure follows a linear trend in terms of power output, but the stress you put on your body follows an exponential trend. In other words, the strain you put on your body, and expected adaptation, from xkj of work at zone 3 does not = xkj of work at zone 6. That of course is just one example.

Still I think the easiest thing for you is to continue to ride based off of feel and simply see what your body can except. Your medical condition is definitely severe, especially for an endurance athlete. You should have already discussed with your doctor your training load, if not get on it and I would suggest seeking out a nutritionist to ensure you are getting enough iron in your diet. I would imagine your doctor has you doing CBC tests regularly, and it might be beneficial for you to hold on to these records for future reference as you can see how different blood markers change with your training. Definitely take it easy on yourself.

 

If you did 214w for 4.5 hours, that's not your FTP!

Get the Coggan/Allen book "Training and Racing with a Powermeter" and read through it, it will tell you a lot about powermeters and how to use one and how to analyse the data properly.

Find a 20-min climb near you for testing FTP -- go out when you're relatively fresh and do it as hard as you can. Around 95% of that will be your FTP, approximately. The exact number doesn't matter so much as you're just using it to create zones. And as long as you are consistent in your testing (use the same hill every time, about once a month) then you can see the growth in fitness pretty easily.

Best way to get better at bike riding is to ride your bike. Do what you like for the high intensity stuff (for now anyway, but be wary not to burn out mentally -- an "always be hammering it" mindset gets pretty weary after a while) but also don't forget to do the stuff that you're weaker at, like threshold efforts. And some longer stuff in Z2 but with shorter efforts. Mix it up, you're unlikely to get it wrong and being new to cycling you have a lot of improvement over the next year or two before you have to think about specific training.

And find a club or group you can ride with sometimes too, that will improve your group riding skills and also challenge you in other ways, while also letting you recover during your rides (not always having to be on the front in the wind).

 

Interesting because training peaks just sent me a mail (thought id see what all the fuss is about, looks a bit OTT and very graphy though) but that basically agreed based on its powers of the crystal ball.
New Threshold Power Value 243 Date Set
09/02/13 Previous Value
200
The reason I'm skeptical about these figures is because on the indoor test i set a Average wattage of 181W. I can recover quickly always have been able to maybe that's the only thing I'm really good at so when I'm out I recover well on the downhills and push on uphill or on a straight again. Im not sure I dont even remember a great deal of pain on the indoor test. Am I supposed to be sweating buckets and screaming for air at the end? I remember when I first got the trainer I did one of TACX plans that really hurt. I think ill get back on it tonight and go for broke until I have to start dropping gears.

On the condition. I'm on Iron Supplements and well see what happens in a month, I've only been taking these for about 2 weeks before that it was unnoticed first test was botched and second revealed this. I wont let it hold me back, I feel good and certainly need to get it fixed before I start next season (would like to race then) but over my Christmas training period I'm not going to loose hours to it. heck its been at 0 for 4 months and I've been getting better right.. *nervous chuckle*

"Still I think the easiest thing for you is to continue to ride based off of feel and simply see what your body can except."
Agreed but this is the reason I got a power meter I trained with my friends one has been riding for years the other has been a gym bum for 5 years or something which was good at first but the are not into it as much as me so they were overtaken in a couple of weeks. Which just leaves me and my determination to push myself which in all honesty, if there isn't someone rolling on past me or catching up I suck pretty bad at.

Its like the pain barrier is there but if someone else is beyond it then its gone. So I figure if I quantify my ability, then also the persons I want to take, I can beat them based on stats which is about the best ill get for now.

"If I'm reading your post correctly you set your FTP based on your 75 mile WAP of 214?"
Kind of, but also not wanting to depart to far from the indoor FTP test of 181W. But I'm going to retest that.

based on youre experience what would you say youre indoor vs actual FTP has been, as in Percentage less. And also that in comparison to 20 min tests? If you should be so kind.

And again thanks for the responses. Greatly appreciated.

 

Two points. First, you never mention NP for any of your rides or tests. Do you have WKO+? If so, you can easily construct a chart of your maximum NP for any duration. All of your routes include climbs and thus your rides are typically going to be highly variable in power output. Under these circumstances, you are better off to use NP rather than AP for the longer-duration benchmarks (e.g., max 60min NP). Second point is a comment you made in your original post about having to do the climbs at threshold or better. Unless the climbs are quite steep (e.g., >6-7%), you can climb them at any power. I was on a ride with a friend once and as we approached a 30-min climb (~6%), we had this exact discussion. At that time, we both had FTPs of about 300W. I argued that we could ride the climb at 150W with no problem. He disagreed, so we made a bet (loser buys coffee after the ride). We did the entire climb at 150W and the only issue (apart from the fact that the segment was of no training value) was that bike speed can get down to about 5mph so one has to concentrate a bit to stay in balance and control the bike. Downhills pose a more significant problem for riding a target power because one can spin out even in one's longest gear.

 

I like the sound of all these suggestions smaryka, thanks.

I was close to joining a cycling club about a month ago. but to be honest Im very paranoid about sucking balls with Powermeter in tow. Its pretty much the ultimate all the gear no idea, infact right now id say I'm a riding cliche. I will have the last laugh... in two years but right now not so much

I think the absolute best thing for me would be healthy competition I need a really good training partner but its hard to find one with my shift patterns. I have my favorite hill, its only 16 mins long but I could extend it and managed 262W 2 days after my 75 miler, I think I could go stronger at the bottom but don't want to tap out at the top. Tops out at 12% saps the life out of you.
For those interested http://app.strava.com/segments/4922198

What do you do you're testing at 20 min or 1 hour? I can image when both are similar it means you are good overall.

Edit Hi, RapDaddyo
I dont use NP (Normalised power?) I don't have training peaks I have a free version but not got that cash ATM, I'm now officially strapped .

I do try to reference WAP (Weighted average power) I use Garmin Connect because I have to and Strava Because I like the competition.
I did see you mention about the climbing at any pace I think I did this once when waiting for a friend up a hill because they were struggling but other than that ive not been able to re-create it. I've tried but uphills i tend to throw out cadence of 105. I really like the Rhythm. I start to feel like im going to be on the hill forever if I go to slow and loose the motivation.

Quite possibly the logical option would be to get a Bigger Rear Cassette and Compact Chainrings but I really like my bike now getting a nice 40mph downhill and no longer spinning out like I was on the old compact crank so Id like to keep things and come out fighting next summer.
P.S. you're experience is greatly appreciated by one complete beginner.

Also the best thing would be to cut the hill but I live 500ft up a 1000ft mountain with a 2000ft mountain 5 miles back. Its up or down one way or the other. and if it aint up the up only comes and bites you on the way home sucks after 60miles of the flattest route I have (anything over 50 miles is always 5000ft climbing)

Edit Edit bmoberg337 Didn't ignore you're last post for some reason my reply was held for moderation because im new.

 

Testing 20 min when fresh is going to be higher than 60 min because the anaerobic/Vo2max component has greater influence on the watts you do in shorter duration stuff.

The other option for testing is a 10 mile TT (if you have them near you). Nothing like pinning a number on your back to make you try your best!

I'm going to take a guess that based on that Strava file and some others you uploaded, your FTP is ~240w or so. Your numbers on Strava aren't bad, you can climb decently so I wouldn't be worried about embarrassing yourself joining a club. The only embarrassment you're likely to suffer is if you do a long ride and bonk from not having the mileage under your belt (but your 75 mile sportive says probably not) or if you can't hold a wheel comfortably or have poor handling skills.

Don't worry about looking silly or whatever with a powermeter. I think deep section wheels on every ride are much more laughable, especially when ridden by overweight middle-aged people whose arses are firmly on the toptube the minute the road goes downhill on even a 2% gradient. These days a powermeter is pretty common and there's no minimum standard required to be seen using one.

 

Quote: Originally Posted by smaryka .
Testing 20 min when fresh is going to be higher than 60 min because the anaerobic/Vo2max component has greater influence on the watts you do in shorter duration stuff.

The other option for testing is a 10 mile TT (if you have them near you). Nothing like pinning a number on your back to make you try your best!

I'm going to take a guess that based on that Strava file and some others you uploaded, your FTP is ~240w or so. Your numbers on Strava aren't bad, you can climb decently so I wouldn't be worried about embarrassing yourself joining a club. The only embarrassment you're likely to suffer is if you do a long ride and bonk from not having the mileage under your belt (but your 75 mile sportive says probably not) or if you can't hold a wheel comfortably or have poor handling skills.

Don't worry about looking silly or whatever with a powermeter. I think deep section wheels on every ride are much more laughable, especially when ridden by overweight middle-aged people whose arses are firmly on the toptube the minute the road goes downhill on even a 2% gradient. These days a powermeter is pretty common and there's no minimum standard required to be seen using one.


I think im going to head on down to here, roll on in and roll home.
http://app.strava.com/segments/1647967

Its a 10 Mile TT that the club I would like join uses. Looks pretty Flat 10 Miles @ 160ft elev. Seems like a good test a good 20 miles away from home but NVM that will help the Long and Slow miles. The reason for my short rides thus far is that ive had a horrible saddle. Just bought a new one though and could still feel everything at the end of the 75 miles so ill try and get a couple of them in with the dwindling light.

I definitely bite off more than I can chew with climbs I know that for a fact now because on the sportive we were in a bunch and there were some good riders up front and they were there spinning away, I accidentally cleared them just by not paying attention and thats not something I should be doing out of respect as much as anything else(in a sportive). Trouble is I'm only 66kgs so Im lucky in the sense I don't have a whole lot of anything to drag up.

 

Quote: Originally Posted by RapDaddyo .
I argued that we could ride the climb at 150W with no problem. He disagreed, so we made a bet (loser buys coffee after the ride). We did the entire climb at 150W and the only issue (apart from the fact that the segment was of no training value) was that bike speed can get down to about 5mph so one has to concentrate a bit to stay in balance and control the bike. Downhills pose a more significant problem for riding a target power because one can spin out even in one's longest gear.


RapDaddyo any chance you can elaborate on this for me, there is a climb that I want to conquer its 5.7 Miles and 1701ft its average grade is 5.7% but more like 10-20% on the drag to the top.

I think I can hold the wattage of 150W-250W to best the beast but keeping that to a minimum all the way to the top would be nice. So please share. What kind of Cassette are we talking. 34T or 39T chainring?

What did you're cadence drop to at the lowest point on this climb? In or out of the saddle. Static or up and down in a good Rhythm? Any Insight you could provide would be appreciated.

 

Sure. Riding the grades < 7% at a minimum of 150W should be no problem other than being at an undesirable cadence. Depending on your weight, you should stay above 5mph even at 150W. You can estimate your speed at power here: http://www.analyticcycling.com/

As to cadence, I set up my gearing for climbing because, like you, almost all of my routes include climbs. So, I run a compact crank with a 13-26 cassette normally and I switch out to a 13-29 cassette when the route calls for it. Sure, I spin out on descents more easily, but those aren't the important segments of my training rides or races. One of the reasons I run a compact crank is because I prefer to make power with cadence versus torque. I'm a "snapper," which means that I prefer to generate power in a very short arc just before and just after the mid-point of the downstroke (e.g., 3 o'clock). So, if I have my druthers I will be up around 90rpm most of the time and I hate it when I have to drop my cadence below about 75. Riding a climb at 150W puts me at 50-60rpm anyway, but for me there is a big difference between 50 and 60.

I prefer to climb in the saddle and I can put out about 750W in the saddle so I never really have to get out of the saddle for power. Rather, I climb out of the saddle on long climbs every 5 minutes or so just to give my back and my glutes a little rest. When I climb out of the saddle, I really try to avoid putting much effort into the downstroke. Rather, I just tilt the bike over a bit to allow me to center my full weight over the downstroke pedal and let my body weight do the work.

The reality is that we can ride at 150W any time, including climbs, with the exception that for grades above about 8% our bike speed will get so slow that it's difficult to stay in balance and control. But, very few routes have extended segments > 8%.

Hope this helps.

 

Thanks RapDaddyo, Im certainly quite similar, I prefer to power at >100 RPM partly because I think im quite weak in Fitness terms. Aerobic if im not mistaken. And since I cant do lots of miles I do High RPM miles to tax the lungs. And I feel it gives me a more comfortable and more momentum in my stroke.

I have been running a compact and didn't realize it. But ordered a Full size crank. Love the Xglide rings though so wont be putting the old ones on..

Finally did a FTP test on the trainer indoors and its not my best 20 mins but bang on my calculated FTP from my best 20. Came in at 245 dead so I think that explains alot for me. I think maybe the indoors 20min value is quite comparable as a static value (i.e. no *0.95) to you're real world FTP. Correct me if im wrong here anybody please.

The only hill I can't complete is my 2000fter but maybe its a bit much for me to ask myself to do that now anyway. In truth the average grade is 7.8% (strava) and I know when I was riding it my Garmin was reading more like 10-12%. Never mind ill come back to it in 3 Months. After really challenging myself with HIIT sessions, today I've not felt this pushed in a long time maybe that's why I've been enjoying it so much .

Ah well its all a learning process and at least ive not lost time over the last 3 weeks or so. Im sure its all giving something at least at this stage.

Thanks to all who have contributed thus far you've all helped this one get another 60 Watts from nowhere.