To Much training in Hardest Zones Possible?

Discussion in 'Power Training' started by Subliminal-SS, Sep 4, 2013.

  1. An old Guy

    An old Guy Member

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    Quote: Originally Posted by Subliminal-SS .

    I think you should find someone local who can help you with your bicycling.

    At least go and talk to the guys in the local club.
     


  2. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    Quote: Originally Posted by Subliminal-SS .
    I like the sound of all these suggestions smaryka, thanks.

    I was close to joining a cycling club about a month ago. but to be honest Im very paranoid about sucking balls with Powermeter in tow. Its pretty much the ultimate all the gear no idea, infact right now id say I'm a riding cliche. I will have the last laugh... in two years but right now not so much [​IMG]


    Edit Hi, RapDaddyo
    I dont use NP (Normalised power?) I don't have training peaks I have a free version but not got that cash ATM, I'm now officially strapped [​IMG].




    In your response to RDO about not having WKO+ or the paid version of TrainingPeaks a couple things to consider.

    I can understand not being able to currently pay for the online TrainingPeaks application and keeping data up in the cloud. Heck I can afford to do that now, but prefer WKO+ as a one time purchase than to spend a never ending payment to track my data. Plus I just like having my data all organized on my own computer and the display of the charts and data are easier for me to see.

    But even if you cannot currently get WKO there is Golden Cheetah and it is free. I still prefer WKO, but at least with Golden Cheetah you can tap into the benefit of using a power meter to guide your training. The current disadvantage or the aspects I think you are missing out on are how these two programs will use the accumulated training data and help you look at how to control your progress or ramp rate.

    I also use Strava and have bought into the extended power metric data and I upload to Garmin Connect. Both of these you have mentioned but these two programs only allow you to look at each training session as a stand alone effort and you miss out on some really good metrics like weekly TSS, CTL, ATL and some other things that help you look back and also plan ahead.


    _______________

    I like smaryka's response to appearance in a club ride. It is different in all places and in my group I happen to fall in the 50 something age group and almost everyone are at the peak of their careers. Meaning almost everyone that I ride with has very expensive ultra light high end component bikes, equipment and clothing since they have more cash available at this point of their lives. Almost all of them have been dedicated to cycling for over 30 years and have great cycling skills in tight fast paced settings, have great etiquette in group rides and just have really good base aerobic fitness for just about any terrain or distance. However, I am the only one of the immediate group that uses a power meter and most of them think I practice some sort of voodoo training. They used to give me crap and say things like, "how's that little power meter thingy working out for you?" But the next season it was more like, "What the crap!!"

    I started cycling later in life with no cardio fitness (30 years in lifting and a former competitive lifter) and these guys and gals mentored me a whole lot in cycling skills and group riding, but in just a couple of years I have caught up with most of them. I am still heavy for the climbs (lean mass), but even the last few that I did with this group I was in the front breakaway group and third from hitting the crest. I can tell you the joking about how I train has stopped and some of them have actually become disturbed about it. For instance......

    Last spring I had one guy make some comments before the ride in front of the whole group to the effect of, "I'm not worried about getting dropped on the climb today because Jesse is here and I know I will at least be ahead of him." I know he was just joking and he is good friend. As soon as the road tilted up I was put a big gap on the whole group not out of spite, but because my fitness had improved. The reason I think it bothered some of them is because I intentionally seek to train on flatter roads and rarely bother with climbing routes, whereas, they spend almost all of their time looking on climbing routes.

    My personal desire/preference/goal is to build up that endurance with longer sustained efforts and that is where I hope to raise my FTP ceiling. When I do a mountain route with them they have a couple of good segments when they are climbing, but what they don't see in their typical mountain training because they do not use a power meter is they only have a few training segments from the entire route and the rest is no watts on those long descents and low watts drafting in a pace line with maybe a little effort on short pulls at the front.

    All fun times with cycling friends!! So I got a little bit of teasing about using a power meter at first, but yep....the joking about it seems to have stopped :)

    Anyway.........consider Golden Cheetah since it is free
     
  3. Subliminal-SS

    Subliminal-SS New Member

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    Thanks Felt, Makes me feel a little better about venturing into a group. I'm sure ill get stick whatever my level of fitness. To be honest I feel like I should join a group now, as mentioned I did come close but on the other hand I think well its practically winter now anyway. Not sure about organised rides but all my local groups advise club rides each Sunday from Spring to Autumn. Not sure exactly how many there would be any more. A training partner maybe sounds like a good prospect though.

    In regards to Golden Cheetah, thanks for the suggestion ill certainly take a look at this and hopefully reap some more benefit from the PM. I thought that I was training well with PE but to be honest I've not been doing so at all. I did a set of V02 intervals today and following the FTP test yesterday and the hills the 2 days before I'm certainly feeling allot more tired. I think having got this PM and learning different aspects about testing my fitness is really going to see me be able to extend my fitness without plateauing. (My Biggest fear).

    As mentioned previously I would like to get into some races next year maybe even win a couple in the lowest category so have to get up to speed fast. I'm only 23 now but would like to seize each day so to speak..

    Edit: Well as I sit here stagnating at my crummy office job im thinking. Does anybody have any experience of integrating running into their fitness plans. I get pretty much 30 min breaks so im thinking maybe I could increase by basic fitness by heading out for this time. maybe 20 mins or so Intense running close to my MHR.

    This is a study im reading and is very interesting it does seem to show results at least which is sounding appealing for someone bulding from the ground up. If a Pro can see 10% improvement in V02Max then Im sure an untrained 3 monther will get something over nothing? http://running.competitor.com/2013/06/training/sports-science-update-run-to-improve-your-cycling-and-vice-versa_43375

    Thoughts, maybe experiences. Again all hugely appreciated.
     
  4. vspa

    vspa Active Member

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    im sorry to chime in without reading every post on the thread, something i try to do before answering, but the consensus seems to be to avoid cross training during the bike racing season, in paper it sounds good to push your cardiovascular system with a 30 minutes run, but among other things you risk injuries, you lose focus, you don't improve your cycling performace really, it has been this way for ages so there must be many more good scientific reasons to back it out,
     
  5. An old Guy

    An old Guy Member

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    Quote: Originally Posted by vspa .

    On paper it sounds good to push your cardiovascular system with a 30 minutes run, but among other things you risk injuries, you lose focus, you don't improve your cycling performace really, it has been this way for ages so there must be many more good scientific reasons to back it out,

    Bicycle events tend to be much longer than running events. Same can be said for training. That leads to the conclusion that you and others make.

    3 hours of tempo running does your bicycling about as much good as 3 hours of tempo bicycling.

    An indication of this is people who move from running marathons or ultramarathons to bicycling. They get up to doing long rides much faster than people who move from shorter distance running to bicycling.

    Another indication are triathletes. Moving some training sessions from bicycling to running improves running ability but does not affect the bicycling.
     
  6. Subliminal-SS

    Subliminal-SS New Member

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    Quote: Originally Posted by vspa .


    im sorry to chime in without reading every post on the thread, something i try to do before answering,
    but the consensus seems to be to avoid cross training during the bike racing season, in paper it sounds good to push your cardiovascular system with a 30 minutes run, but among other things you risk injuries, you lose focus, you don't improve your cycling performace really, it has been this way for ages so there must be many more good scientific reasons to back it out,

    I get what you are saying I haven't wanted to jog up until now because it invariably leads to some shin pain or knee pain. Just a thought for a few months over winter to get a god base fitness there must be some gains to be made. (Im just starting out (first 3 months)) I can understand totally that the point of diminishing returns sets in after about 7-8 months I would hazard a guess at.

    Quote: Originally Posted by An old Guy .

    Bicycle events tend to be much longer than running events. Same can be said for training. That leads to the conclusion that you and others make.

    3 hours of tempo running does your bicycling about as much good as 3 hours of tempo bicycling.

    An indication of this is people who move from running marathons or ultramarathons to bicycling. They get up to doing long rides much faster than people who move from shorter distance running to bicycling.

    Another indication are triathletes. Moving some training sessions from bicycling to running improves running ability but does not affect the bicycling.


    I'm not sure why you assumed so but I don't think anyone mentioned replacing my cycling calendar with running. Merely suggested that I should run when cycling isn't an option as a cardio compliment.


    I don’t think it will increase my cycling ability FTP etc etc but there is some merit to being fit. i.e. when I started out 3 months ago I have not done any work in maybe 6 years in terms of running riding playing sports etc. So when I first got on a bike I was knackered after 5-10 miles and a 27 miler near killed me. A friend of mine who was thinking of commuting regular runner fit in general. First ride was 50 miles no problems. Now maybe he’s got super genes yada yada, but to be honest I think in school even though I didn’t ride a bike I would have lasted longer than what I did 3 months ago. ergo Base Fitness counts in any activity and translates across all at the beginner level. Definitely not at pro level or even amateur.
     
  7. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    Quote: Originally Posted by Subliminal-SS .

    (Im just starting out (first 3 months))

    .......at the beginner level. Definitely not at pro level or even amateur.


    You are not doing too bad though. If your FTP really works out to be in the 240 range with just 3 months of cycling that's not too shabby in my book. I've been on a steady diet of structured training for a couple of years and have a few more years of cycling before that and I'm struggling to get past my 220 FTP plateau. Plus you are starting out training with power which is something many do not do even consider and they do most of their training based on guess work or perceived effort.

    If you get your focus dialed in on a structure there is no telling what you are capable of achieving based on your starting FTP point.

    By focus I would really like to suggest building endurance as a primary focus on the bike if possible. This may not be super exciting compared to short high intensity efforts or fast group rides as you train day after day, week after week with loads of L3/SST/L4 type of sustained efforts, but that "base" fitness and endurance will pay off.

    Do you have an indoor trainer? I'm not going to suggest that jogging/running does not improve overall fitness, but training specificity may help get those legs get used to sitting at sustained efforts of sub-maximal power like one would experience in a time trial. If one has "x" hours per day for training and "x" is minimal due to work or school, plus winter weather and short daylight hours those indoor fall/winter efforts of sitting on the trainer can be of value come next spring. Trying to approach a 10 hour plus a week cycling training spread sort of evenly through the week and maybe a longer endurance weekend ride will help build your endurance. To paraphrase Lydiard it takes a lot more training hours to build aerobic fitness than it does to build anaerobic fitness.

    What you have to be aware of if you go out and run with intensity on a work break as you suggested you then have to look at how that may impact structured cycling training. You are young and probably have a faster recovery rate so it may work out okay for you, but I would think it will still impact cycling training if you also train cycling daily.

    Just some things to think about as you start looking at how to focus in on your target goals.

    Best wishes
     
  8. Subliminal-SS

    Subliminal-SS New Member

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    Quote: Originally Posted by Felt_Rider .

    You are not doing too bad though. If your FTP really works out to be in the 240 range with just 3 months of cycling that's not too shabby in my book. I've been on a steady diet of structured training for a couple of years and have a few more years of cycling before that and I'm struggling to get past my 220 FTP plateau. Plus you are starting out training with power which is something many do not do even consider and they do most of their training based on guess work or perceived effort.

    If you get your focus dialed in on a structure there is no telling what you are capable of achieving based on your starting FTP point.

    By focus I would really like to suggest building endurance as a primary focus on the bike if possible. This may not be super exciting compared to short high intensity efforts or fast group rides as you train day after day, week after week with loads of L3/SST/L4 type of sustained efforts, but that "base" fitness and endurance will pay off.

    Do you have an indoor trainer? I'm not going to suggest that jogging/running does not improve overall fitness, but training specificity may help get those legs get used to sitting at sustained efforts of sub-maximal power like one would experience in a time trial. If one has "x" hours per day for training and "x" is minimal due to work or school, plus winter weather and short daylight hours those indoor fall/winter efforts of sitting on the trainer can be of value come next spring. Trying to approach a 10 hour plus a week cycling training spread sort of evenly through the week and maybe a longer endurance weekend ride will help build your endurance. To paraphrase Lydiard it takes a lot more training hours to build aerobic fitness than it does to build anaerobic fitness.

    What you have to be aware of if you go out and run with intensity on a work break as you suggested you then have to look at how that may impact structured cycling training. You are young and probably have a faster recovery rate so it may work out okay for you, but I would think it will still impact cycling training if you also train cycling daily.

    Just some things to think about as you start looking at how to focus in on your target goals.

    Best wishes


    Thanks again for you're contribution felt always appreciated. You touch on a couple of very important points. I do indeed have an indoor trainer and plan to use this plenty over the winter months. Infact its practically all i've used this week :( bad times. Hate British weather. But I would say the FTP I have set now is correct I believe have it dialed in at 243 and my intervals this week which I also think are a little sub par considering the workload last Sunday have been good and very taxing but not impossible to complete. But the mental toughness certainly has some way to go. As you say to get used to sitting in 60-90 mins of SST or 40-60 mins Threshold without any breaks is one of the biggest hurdles in my book.

    I've uploaded all of my rides to Training peaks Free just to get TSS Tracking etc and although this week has been a slow week (alot going on in life this week and weather didn't go great) it has been a relatively successful week. I've been working on 120 miles a week (Trying to get this dialed into time) but as you say 10 hours is a great number to work with. I'm aiming for a TSS Score of 600-700 not enough 700-800 Successful week 800-900 Great week 900-1000+ Will have to see how the legs feel. I think this should see me through the winter healthily enough. I hope to hit 300 FTP by Christmas which sounds realistic but then I calculate the Watts/kg and it doesn't sound so realistic so lets not go there. But ill be pleased if that does happen. The last month or so has been a waste really Looking back on this week(pushing and feeling the burn) and its bringing back memories of when I first started and struggled to complete things (Like get up hills) but then improved no end a week later, I know I've had at least one month of not really improving. But this week since the sportive I've felt strong so maybe my legs have peaking a hill of their own...

    Would be interesting to hear of other peoples honeymoon periods. i.e. how long was the period where you grew exponentially but then began to plateau. Seeing the numbers in comparison I think on one hand mine might come soon PM will certainly help offset this. But then I see some people say they had 2 good years of continual improvement and I feel much more positive about my Christmas present from my legs. Time will tell for sure.

    The big simple plan for me is 4 week rotations of TSS 900-1000, 800-900, 700-800, 600-700 with the final week being rebuild and re-test week. All of this at a constant 10 hours which is my max at the moment but well see what happens on that front. I'm at 3.85w/kg now I'm targeting 252 Watts for my next test in 5 weeks hoping for an W/kg or 4 by then.
     
  9. vspa

    vspa Active Member

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    those two are intertwined, but should be followed on chronological order of course, and they are not fixed values so that is the beauty of training !
     
  10. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    Quote: Originally Posted by Subliminal-SS .
    The big simple plan for me is 4 week rotations of TSS 900-1000, 800-900, 700-800, 600-700 with the final week being rebuild and re-test week. All of this at a constant 10 hours which is my max at the moment but well see what happens on that front. I'm at 3.85w/kg now I'm targeting 252 Watts for my next test in 5 weeks hoping for an W/kg or 4 by then.
    Ten hours a week is enough to make good progress, but it's not enough that you can be cavalier about how you use your time on the bike. At this point, I think you can measure your training week with one metric: total time at SST+. It will be a challenge, but if you work at it you should be able to log 50% or more of your training rides at SST pace or better. And, at only 10 hrs/wk, I don't think you should need to include any "recovery" rides. See how your body responds to doing as much SST/L4 as you can with your available training time.
     
  11. Subliminal-SS

    Subliminal-SS New Member

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    Sounds good to me RDO, pretty much along the same lines as I have been thinking. What would you use to Quantify the SST+ time at metric. This is what I was going to use the TSS score for but is this better quantified in raw numbers, what do you use to display this in numbers. a power distro graph for a weeks worth of data? I can imagine some of the helpful suggestions along this thread may show this i.e. WKO, Golden Cheetah?. Its just not one ive been able to quantify thus far in my looking at what im using.
     
  12. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    Quote: Originally Posted by Subliminal-SS .
    Sounds good to me RDO, pretty much along the same lines as I have been thinking. What would you use to Quantify the SST+ time at metric. This is what I was going to use the TSS score for but is this better quantified in raw numbers, what do you use to display this in numbers. a power distro graph for a weeks worth of data? I can imagine some of the helpful suggestions along this thread may show this i.e. WKO, Golden Cheetah?. Its just not one ive been able to quantify thus far in my looking at what im using.

    I don't know about Golden Cheetah, but time at level is not an option with WKO+. In fact, there is a chart option in WKO+ that one could mistakenly think is time at level, but in fact it is a simple frequency distribution of power at level. IOW, it ignores duration at AP or NP. I think your only option to track this metric is to estimate your time by level per ride. For example, let's say you do a 1.5 hr ride with a 5min warmup followed by 3x20min L4 segments with 5min recovery between each one and a 5min cooldown, you could record 60min at L4. You could just use an Excel workbook to record your time by day and level. If you use a different column for each level, you could easily sum up your cumulative time for a week or other time period.
     
  13. Subliminal-SS

    Subliminal-SS New Member

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    Well Thanks to everybody I think im good to go for the next 3 months and see what happens. Got some good tools, some spreadsheets, a couple of statistics im new to but now watching and a goal in mind

    Started it off this morning with some intervals, as soon as I hit the interval heart rate shoots up to mu calculated Threshold Zone, Must be a good sign. During the Recovery mins drops back down to Z2 within about 2 mins < Hopefully this will come down!

    But I know people say heart rate is at best obsolete with power but looking previously I thought I was at Threshold(Power) and my HR was Sub Threshold so a clear sign there it was calculated incorrectly. Of course this only applies to me etc etc.

    Targeting 10 Hours in total 5 Hours in Threshold or above I think in comparison to what ive been doing ill see some good gains over the upcoming months. Wish me luck...
     
  14. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    Quote: Originally Posted by Subliminal-SS .
    Targeting 10 Hours in total 5 Hours in Threshold or above I think in comparison to what ive been doing ill see some good gains over the upcoming months. Wish me luck...


    Since I don't have to ride or keep up with you......yes....Best wishes on the structured training. [​IMG]

    Keep at it and I bet next spring you will have some good fitness and maybe your FTP will continue to improve to your earlier stated goal. If you get in some sticking points don't second guess, instead just keep working though it until you break through to the next fitness bump. Being that this is new to you the gains may come quickly, but if not keep at it.
     
  15. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    Quote: Originally Posted by Felt_Rider .
    Keep at it and I bet next spring you will have some good fitness and maybe your FTP will continue to improve to your earlier stated goal. If you get in some sticking points don't second guess, instead just keep working though it until you break through to the next fitness bump. Being that this is new to you the gains may come quickly, but if not keep at it.
    Felt's point can hardly be over-emphasized. One of the most common errors made by those new to structured training with power is to assume that fitness improvements will come steadily. This is simply untrue. Be prepared to train for several weeks with no apparent improvement in your fitness. This may be followed by a big jump. I once trained for about 3 months under the assumption that my FTP was 275W, with no apparent increase in my FTP. Then, one day I did a club ride in which a gung-ho young rider pushed me pretty hard on a bunch of long climbs. I was shocked when I downloaded my ride file and my best 60min NP was 326W! Oops!
     
  16. Subliminal-SS

    Subliminal-SS New Member

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    Definitely true, I think at the moment I'm undergoing a little bit of a bump in fitness. Not to long ago I did my training route and paced myself well but also pushed. I thought I had plateaued all of last month but this first effort was a month ago exactly as it turns out. 21.8 Miles 2k feet completed it at 01:19:48. Set myself a goal of 01:15:00. went out today after my toughest week of training so far and set a 01:13:49. So pretty chuffed with that to be honest.

    Heck its the way of life right. Want something, nothing ever comes then a bus load at once.
     
  17. vspa

    vspa Active Member

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    you want something and you work hard for it, working hard in sports also mean to allocate rest and recovery, so sometimes good results come in unexpected fashion,
     
  18. Subliminal-SS

    Subliminal-SS New Member

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    Well my first week is complete. Felt really good thought Id cap it off with a few K feet. Finally tried youre tips RDO and.. it worked finally managed to get up my homeside hill. 1 Mile 500 feet managed to sustain 262 watts at cadence 50-65 all the way.

    Another thing I learnt today though I think I pushed past a wall going up that hill. I went up it, back down then as I kicked up a little into my house I couldn't feel my legs. I've been trying to get up the hill since I started cycling but just couldn't handle the gradient. Exciting times...

    Simply for curiosity sake encase, (I like noseying on other people anyway hehe): http://app.strava.com/activities/82410179
     
  19. Subliminal-SS

    Subliminal-SS New Member

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    Well quick update as it keeps me motivated. Getting stronger I think. Did a 68 mile 6500ft 2 cat 3s 3 cat 4s ride on my own average speed 16.5mph definitely a whole lot more than I have ever done before. Shame I don't have power data for the time being but there we go.

    Will be interesting to do my next FTP test when the replacement arrives.
     
  20. Subliminal-SS

    Subliminal-SS New Member

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    Another quickie from me chaps hope you dont mind

    Got my replacement power meter this week and got it fitted.

    Been trying to test my FTP again. Definitely have at least a 10w improvement from the last 4 weeks of training.

    Got back onto the turbo for the first time today however and sustaining power zone 4.5+ was alot easier than before with my FTP now set at 252 or 4w/kg and my heart rate was a good 10bpm lower. Legs are tierd though done 10k feet of climbing this week including completing my 2k feet 8 miles for the first time ever. Even though I was completely unprepared for 1*c...

    So all in all from how I felt last time and how I feel now I'm pretty damn confident of a 15-20w increase in 4 weeks but yet to prove this, my old Sweetspot rides used to normally have a NP of ~230 but now are trending towards ~260
     
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