To Much training in Hardest Zones Possible?

[Subliminal-SS]

Well my yearly goal was not unattainable I don't think but needless to say I didn't quite get there unfortunately.

Personally my Peak Came at Week 9-10 or The end of October. I managed to set a max 20 Min of 275 which I was pretty happy with but then made the mistake of easing up and thinking if I have a week off it will do me good. I wish I never took that week off. Since then I just have not gotten back into the Rhythm. I think by the 31st I will have got back to that record. I can feel the V02 Max Intervals getting a little bit easier but that's still only an FTP of about 260 No where near my goal of 300 but there we go.

Some interesting analysis for me and anybody who stumbles across this like I was looking for when I first started.

Set myself a goal of 5 Hours At Z4+ and attained that for a couple weeks got really good gains with that personally. The below chart serves as a good indicator of why my peak came in late october. Just time served isn't enough really. With a 10 Hour weekly workout I'm now convinced that one should be pushing ones self all the time and if you ever think you deserve a break... well unless you've done 20 hours for the week truth is your body most likely doesn't need one.

Week 4,5,6 Broken PM Week 11 Ill conceived week off.

 

[cyclightning]

Sublkiminal-SS, the schedule you've designed looks well designed in terms of varying cycling volume, but I cant' see where you are varying the intensity of your workouts (Z4+?).It has no breakdown of interval training, ftp efforts or long base training (2.5 hr+ rides). Typically a endurance athlete would do base training over the winter and ftp efforts near maximum while having 1 to 2 sessions per week of interval training during the early spring. Also a three week block of no training would significantly detrain you, just doing 3x30 minute workout a week at 80% of FTP would be good during an off period.

IMHO, you don't need more than 2 hrs a week riding at >90-95% of FTP, but you absolutely need 30 minutes a week doing interval training at higher than FTP. 20 hrs a week of riding at 30 km/hr (or equivalent power output) amounts to 600+ km a week which is a tremendous workload if riding solo.

 

[Subliminal-SS]

It is true there isnt a training plan in place. for the first 12 months of cycling I don't really intend on having one with Base etc I just plan on to keep riding through the winter.

Ill try and ride 3 Hour Rides at least once a week but the weather at the moment is unforgiving..

The 3 weeks off was a broken PM but the intensity was in between what was the pre and post volumes.

The intensity during the good months was SS rides of 2 hours around my Circuit. x2. 1 Long 3 Hour ride and 2 sets of FTP intervals up a hill which invariably led to about 15 mins ~FTP and then pushed above for the last 5 mins of the climb (very Steep) This was what all in all lead to +4 hours a week at or above Zone 4.

I'm slowly getting back in touch with the turbo I've really struggled settling into this winter. Id say that's the biggest failing of mine, not having the clothing and or a plan for the weather as it deteriorates.

 

[cyclightning]

Well, I suppose a highly trained cyclist can sustain 4 hrs a week near ftp within 20 hrs a week total... but that is quite a bit. Just looked at all your posts, the 68 mile ride with 6500 ft of climbing is a tough ride, I bet you were really tired after that one.

A good rest week in the early winter and then a easy week is good to alleviate fatigue or if you're not feeling motivated for training or it feels like just maintaining the current workload is becoming tough.

Cold weather riding is hard and I'd say ease off about 20% in your power output. I'm a bit in the same situation as it's around -2 to +3 C here right now. Longest ride on a gym bike was 1 hr 30 minutes. Can easily get sick riding in the cold too much.

 

[Subliminal-SS]

The 68 Miler was ok actually I don't seem to recall any tierd feeling that day or the days after and I normally really suffer at about 50 miles just because the frequency of rides above that is about 2.. ever.

I don't know why I decided to take the rest week but I sure wish I hadnt at this stage, never mind as you say better to take a day off and come back with twice the enthusiasm than slog through multiple days of poor quality.

I would imagine you have alot of experience living in Finland with the winter blues, do you find that you always have to start again each spring or are you generally ok come spring despite the lack of hard rides in winter?

 

[cyclightning]

No, I get very hard rides now in the winter, but just short FTP developing sessions on a gym bike and some slower longer rides outdoors, can't ride hard though with cold weather. Just wonder if I'm going to peak too soon.

 

[WillemJM]

A lot of good information given above.

Personally, I found that once I started training with power I also dialed up the intensity way too much and had to look at that carefully.

To improve, recovery is just as important, if not more so than the training hours you put in. You have to learn when it is necessary to rest and when you are ready for the next hard session to get maximum benefit for your time put into training. For me, planning does not help, as I know when i am tired and when I am fresh ready for the next high intensity. A lot of variables, including work, family life and hours sleep affects that. Sometimes I can recover in 24 hours, sometimes it takes four days, all depends on the circumstances. If I have sore legs, or wake up in the middle of the night, I know I am tired and need to rest.

For racing, muscular endurance is very important, otherwise you will hang in the bunch for the first hour and after that on the first long climb you will be off the back. I always get that in place first, before I start the real high intensity short drills to improve strength. All in all this is a long subject.

About the hills, get a compact crank set if you need to, climbing should only be hard if you decide to climb fast.

 

[danfoz]

Originally Posted by WillemJM

For racing, muscular endurance is very important, otherwise you will hang in the bunch for the first hour and after that on the first long climb you will be off the back. I always get that in place first, before I start the real high intensity short drills to improve strength.

Some of the best advice going.

 

[Subliminal-SS]

Originally Posted by WillemJM
A lot of good information given above.

Personally, I found that once I started training with power I also dialed up the intensity way too much and had to look at that carefully.

To improve, recovery is just as important, if not more so than the training hours you put in. You have to learn when it is necessary to rest and when you are ready for the next hard session to get maximum benefit for your time put into training. For me, planning does not help, as I know when i am tired and when I am fresh ready for the next high intensity. A lot of variables, including work, family life and hours sleep affects that. Sometimes I can recover in 24 hours, sometimes it takes four days, all depends on the circumstances. If I have sore legs, or wake up in the middle of the night, I know I am tired and need to rest.

For racing, muscular endurance is very important, otherwise you will hang in the bunch for the first hour and after that on the first long climb you will be off the back. I always get that in place first, before I start the real high intensity short drills to improve strength. All in all this is a long subject.

About the hills, get a compact crank set if you need to, climbing should only be hard if you decide to climb fast.

I think I know the feeling you refer to, a few rides normally over 60 miles and intense I get that feeling that my legs are just pulsating all night afterwards but even yesterday I did my normal 30 miler with a new PB 20 min and 60 min back to where it was, really pushed hard that ride but still feel fine today and it was after a day of V02 intervals at 270W for 30 mins in 5 min intervals so by rights a relatively gentle day it should have been. Im getting really slack with testing this winter though I need a well planned 20 min test next week really.

Does anybody find the testing a bit hit and miss if I feel motivated to set a good 20 min ill head out and hit it hard otherwise I find it hard to just say ill knock out a 20 min test this day or that. I guess that's all just experience though and being used to performing on demand and having the motivation and plan for it.

When you say muscular endurance are we talking about efforts of around 20 mins here so lots of 2x20s etc first as a foundation then build onto the break catching efforts of 5-7 mins and the 2-3 min dashes etc?

"Real high intensity short drills" like 30 sec all out efforts and sprints?

 

[danfoz]

Originally Posted by Subliminal-SS

When you say muscular endurance are we talking about efforts of around 20 mins here so lots of 2x20s etc first as a foundation then build onto the break catching efforts of 5-7 mins and the 2-3 min dashes etc?
"Real high intensity short drills" like 30 sec all out efforts and sprints?

Think increasing volume of steady efforts starting at tempo type speed with a starting point really depending on your current work capacity. Joe Friel uses the term "controlled time trialing". Someone like Hincapie is going to have very different parameters than someone like myself, a Cat4. It's basically developing the ability to hammer for extended periods of time without the fear of pushing it too hard, too soon. There is no easy answer to improving this but longer harder rides than you have done in the past are the key. It's a juggling act of increasing both volume and intensity without too much of either (others may differ on this opinion).

"Real high intensity short drills" like 30 sec all out efforts and sprints? Not sure if you were including in the same thought, but definitely not this. I would do these efforts starting closer to race day (once I'd already developed a good base and lifted sustainable power), to simulate the efforts that come at the end of a race needed to hang with the repeated attacks likely initiated by those not interested in charging the line with the bona fide sprinters.

(apologies for barging in)

 

[WillemJM]

Originally Posted by Subliminal-SS

When you say muscular endurance are we talking about efforts of around 20 mins here so lots of 2x20s etc first as a foundation then build onto the break catching efforts of 5-7 mins and the 2-3 min dashes etc?

"Real high intensity short drills" like 30 sec all out efforts and sprints?

Not sure if there is a right or wrong answer, but all the research I have done shows more benefit for shorter durations.

I start with four sessions of 10 minutes at about 10W below FTP, the following week five sessions, the following week six, etc.

 

[danfoz]

Originally Posted by WillemJM

Not sure if there is a right or wrong answer, but all the research I have done shows more benefit for shorter durations.

I start with four sessions of 10 minutes at about 10W below FTP, the following week five sessions, the following week six, etc.

This lines up with one of Friel's ME workouts from his training bible. He has this type of workout falling chronologically slightly after the initial base period ME workout of increasing time over one set at tempo level intensity. The "longer harder rides than you have done in the past" I referred to above was something I remember from a Hunter Allen article in Road analyzing a Hincapie power file. I guess a lot comes down to where we currently reside in our training lives, where in the season we find ourselves, and how quickly or slowly we need to ease ourselves into that hot bath.

 

[danfoz]

Including some muscular endurance building days workouts from my current Hunter Allen plan as one example.

1/8:
THE GRIND – TEMPO CADENCE INTERVALS
WU: 15 - 20 Minutes
MS: TEMPO – Tempo efforts build and maintain our muscular endurance and are an important part of keeping our fall strength. By adding some cadence element to our Tempo work we can “maximize” the benefit. Once warm-up is complete and you are ready to roll complete 1 x 30 Minute TEMPO (Power Z3, HR Z3, RPE 3-4) effort.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

1/22:
THE GRIND – TEMPO CADENCE INTERVALS
WU: 15 - 20 Minutes
MS: TEMPO – Tempo efforts build and maintain our muscular endurance and are an important part of keeping our fall strength. By adding some cadence element to our Tempo work we can “maximize” the benefit. Once warm-up is complete and you are ready to roll complete 1 x 40 Minute TEMPO (Power Z3, HR Z3, RPE 3-4) effort.
THE GRIND – TEMPO CADENCE INTERVALS
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

2/5:
WU: 15 - 20 Minutes working Endurance (Power Z2, HR Z2, RPE 2-3) with 4 x 1 minute Fast Pedals to wake up legs
MS: TEMPO – Tempo efforts build and maintain our muscular endurance and are an important part of keeping our fall strength. By adding some cadence element to our Tempo work we can “maximize” the benefit. Once warm-up is complete and you are ready to roll complete 1 x 50 Minute TEMPO (Power Z3, HR Z3, RPE 3-4) effort.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

PLEASE NOTE: I have deleted portions of the workouts and replaced with xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx to preserve Hunter Allen's specific MO.

 

[dkrenik]

Originally Posted by WillemJM

Not sure if there is a right or wrong answer, but all the research I have done shows more benefit for shorter durations.

I start with four sessions of 10 minutes at about 10W below FTP, the following week five sessions, the following week six, etc.

For developing FTP, the research I've seen shows the opposite.

 

[danfoz]

Originally Posted by dkrenik

For developing FTP, the research I've seen shows the opposite.

That may be true however FTP is not muscular endurance, what WillemJM was remarking upon. Muscular endurance is a muscle's ability to perform repeated contractions over a period of time without fatigue.

 

[dkrenik]

That may be true however FTP is not muscular endurance, what WillemJM was remarking upon. Muscular endurance is a muscle's ability to perform repeated contractions over a period of time without fatigue.

Hmmm. You got me on this one. How is ME, as you've defined it, different from how one would normally turn the pedals?

 

[danfoz]

Originally Posted by dkrenik


Hmmm. You got me on this one. How is ME, as you've defined it, different from how one would normally turn the pedals?

Not quite sure what you're meaning as it's all turning the pedals but the classic definition of FTP is maximum sustainable power for a 1 hour period, whether tested over one hour or over 20 minutes and run through some extrapolation formula. A shallow FTP would be the inability to produce significant steady power over one hour, whereas shallow muscular endurance would be the inability to produce significant power for any significant amount of time. A good example would be the one hour time trial (over which Moser, Merckx, Boardman et al. prevailed) vs. say the Tour of Flanders which requires riders to still put out a significant amount of power after 4+ hours of hard racing. The training approaches for each endeavor would be quite different.

 

[WillemJM]

Originally Posted by dkrenik

For developing FTP, the research I've seen shows the opposite.

We were talking about ME, the ability to hang in or ride in front of the bunch on a long hard rolling hill at close to maximum effort.

I am not sure if anyone really knows the answers and we are all different.

This is what Joe Friel says, duration of 6 to 12 minutes in zone 4, total amount of intervals counting to TOTAL COMBINED TIME between 20 to 60 minutes once a week.

http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2011/08/intervals-part-5.html

I am an old guy, at the place in life where the older I get the better I was.... But through the years I have learnt that too much intensity results in getting sick and being off the bike for more than a week and the best return for my time comes from high cadence 115rpm interval sessions at absolute maximum effort as the session ends, 2 minutes long, with 2 minutes recovery in between, total session of 45 minutes once every 4 days. Riding at maximum effort for longer than 20 minutes is something I save for A races, or FTP tests only with timing carefully picked.

What works for me, may not work for you. I train with a bunch of old farts, meaning a lot of social LSD rides not by choice, but part of being friends. Preparing for first race mid March, now in Base 3 and the above from Friel always worked well for me, even before he wrote his first book.

 

[dkrenik]

Originally Posted by danfoz

Not quite sure what you're meaning as it's all turning the pedals but the classic definition of FTP is maximum sustainable power for a 1 hour period, whether tested over one hour or over 20 minutes and run through some extrapolation formula. A shallow FTP would be the inability to produce significant steady power over one hour, whereas shallow muscular endurance would be the inability to produce significant power for any significant amount of time. A good example would be the one hour time trial (over which Moser, Merckx, Boardman et al. prevailed) vs. say the Tour of Flanders which requires riders to still put out a significant amount of power after 4+ hours of hard racing. The training approaches for each endeavor would be quite different.

OK, so if I understand how you're using the terminology correctly, FTP is one's power over ~60 min's +/-. ME is the power required over a longer duration. Correct?

IIRC, my old Friel book (Cyclist's Training Bible, 1st edition) defines it similarly to how "Sweet Spot Training" is popularly defined.

Sounds like a semantics issue.

 

[dkrenik]

Originally Posted by WillemJM
We were talking about ME, the ability to hang in or ride in front of the bunch on a long hard rolling hill at close to maximum effort.

I am not sure if anyone really knows the answers and we are all different.

This is what Joe Friel says, duration of 6 to 12 minutes in zone 4, total amount of intervals counting to TOTAL COMBINED TIME between 20 to 60 minutes once a week.

http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2011/08/intervals-part-5.html

I am an old guy, at the place in life where the older I get the better I was.... But through the years I have learnt that too much intensity results in getting sick and being off the bike for more than a week and the best return for my time comes from high cadence 115rpm interval sessions at absolute maximum effort as the session ends, 2 minutes long, with 2 minutes recovery in between, total session of 45 minutes once every 4 days. Riding at maximum effort for longer than 20 minutes is something I save for A races, or FTP tests only with timing carefully picked.

What works for me, may not work for you. I train with a bunch of old farts, meaning a lot of social LSD rides not by choice, but part of being friends. Preparing for first race mid March, now in Base 3 and the above from Friel always worked well for me, even before he wrote his first book.

Not arguing that we all require different stimulus to realize gains/adaptations. As is common in training discussions, there are plenty of terms being tossed about that, generally, mean different things to different folks.