Toe-Out Right side...because of car gas pedal?



Jace1283

New Member
Sep 3, 2006
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hi
i had a situation with new shoes and during realized that both myself and another rider have "toe out" on the right side compared to the left. I was thinking why this would be and realized we both drive with our right foot, like just about everyone else. What i do and i'm sure is common for many is have there foot at quite an angle when using the gas, "toe out." Most people have spent quite some time in their cars and i think this could be a cause. I'm going to use 2 washers to put the pedal out a little more so i can have more toe out, because i have had knee pain on just the right side while having zero issues on the left leg. What do you guys think about the gas pedal theory?

PS plz dont talk about foot angle(cleat shims) or seat height, been there done that.
 
Jace1283 said:
hi
i had a situation with new shoes and during realized that both myself and another rider have "toe out" on the right side compared to the left. I was thinking why this would be and realized we both drive with our right foot, like just about everyone else. What i do and i'm sure is common for many is have there foot at quite an angle when using the gas, "toe out." Most people have spent quite some time in their cars and i think this could be a cause. I'm going to use 2 washers to put the pedal out a little more so i can have more toe out, because i have had knee pain on just the right side while having zero issues on the left leg. What do you guys think about the gas pedal theory?

PS plz dont talk about foot angle(cleat shims) or seat height, been there done that.

So, you don't want to talk about other factors that could be in play. You only want to discuss your theory. Ok. Well, the amount of time we spend driving is a very short interval in our lives, so scientifically it's far from proven that such a biomechanical alteration is the result of driving. I don't pedal with my right toe out. Nope. Never have.

I've spent a significantly greater portion of my life hanging to the right, yet I don't sit off to the left on the saddle to give John Thomas more room. I'm also right handed and don't favor my right hand on the handlebars.

Next: do you sit toes in on the toilet and if so does that correlate with toe position on the bike?:D
 
alienator said:
So, you don't want to talk about other factors that could be in play. You only want to discuss your theory.
exactly! its called staying on topic. we are dicussing, and hopefully only discussing the possible effect of people who drive with their foot at an angle(toe out) when using the gas pedal.

alienator said:
Ok. Well, the amount of time we spend driving is a very short interval in our lives,
wrong. in YOUR life. are you young?, young people tend to believe what applies in their lives applies in everyone else's, giving them the view that they're always right. i calculated ive done about 2000 hours of driving in my life so far, im 25, thats significant if its done nearly everyday and sometimes for 5-7 hours.
alienator said:
so scientifically it's far from proven that such a biomechanical alteration is the result of driving. I don't pedal with my right toe out. Nope. Never have.
society has programmed you well. ok, so this doesnt apply to you! move along

alienator said:
I've spent a significantly greater portion of my life hanging to the right, yet I don't sit off to the left on the saddle to give John Thomas more room. I'm also right handed and don't favor my right hand on the handlebars.
.......
alienator said:
Next: do you sit toes in on the toilet and if so does that correlate with toe position on the bike?:D
since there's no gas pedal attached to a toilet, though it would be awesome if there was, no.
 
Hey, it's good to see you came in wearing your asshat.

Jace1283 said:
exactly! its called staying on topic. we are dicussing, and hopefully only discussing the possible effect of people who drive with their foot at an angle(toe out) when using the gas pedal.

Well considering it's such a narrow topic, with little chance of having anything proven, it didn't seem out of line to try and bring a little reasoned thought to the table. Why endanger a poor hypothesis with ideas that challenge it?:rolleyes:


wrong. in YOUR life. are you young?, young people tend to believe what applies in their lives applies in everyone else's, giving them the view that they're always right. i calculated ive done about 2000 hours of driving in my life so far, im 25, thats significant if its done nearly everyday and sometimes for 5-7 hours.

Golly, Opie. You've spent a whopping 0.913% of your life driving. Granted, no one can take from you the massive amount of wisdom you've accumulated in the breadth of your 25 years on Earth. After all, 25 years: ooooooo doggie! I'd be surprised if the Dalai Lama doesn't seek your advice.

On the other hand, you've spent approximately 71,000 hours sleeping so maybe foot position on the bike is influenced by the position in which you sleep.

society has programmed you well. ok, so this doesnt apply to you! move along

Quoi? Learn me about this social programming of which you know so much, please. Silly me, I was using the measily 20ish years as a scientist to question your hypothesis and basing my questioning on the fact that wild claims must provide proof. That is, after all, how science, and specifically scientific method works. FWIW, you can google "scientific method" iffin' you want to learn what it means. In fact, scientific method is based on the idea that theories are only born when hypotheses are proven (or if proving the negation, disproven) by repeatable experiments.

Meh. You talk big but bring no intelligence to the table, but you do bring a dearth of critical thinking skills.
 
When driving a car, you are sitting, and so the angle of your foot has no bearing on anything. Try sitting, observe others sitting... I think you will find that most people have their feet splayed out. When riding a bike, particularly when well positioned on one, you are not sitting but straddling. It's more like standing than sitting. Whatever you do with your accelerator foot means nothing to cycling, because cycling is more like walking than it is like driving (unless maybe you're riding a recumbent). Is your saddle too low?
 
I've wondered the same. My right foot is definitely more out than left and my knee gets a bit sore after a longish drive (2-3 hrs). There's probably a reason why they put that cruise control in the car. :)
 
longfemur said:
When driving a car, you are sitting, and so the angle of your foot has no bearing on anything. Try sitting, observe others sitting... I think you will find that most people have their feet splayed out. When riding a bike, particularly when well positioned on one, you are not sitting but straddling. It's more like standing than sitting. Whatever you do with your accelerator foot means nothing to cycling, because cycling is more like walking than it is like driving (unless maybe you're riding a recumbent). Is your saddle too low?

We use leg muscles to reach for the accellerator or twist the leg, so it's plausible that the muscles become conditioned to some degree.
 
I also have my right foot splayed toe out on the right, but I'm pretty sure I have had this since I was a child, well before I started driving at age 21 (I'm almost 50 now). I can remember making footprints in the snow with this abnormality.

I always rode with toe clips until recently, so I guess I just adjusted with the "float" in that system. Since I switched to cleats, I have to move the right cleat to the inside (shoe to the outside) and angle it so my heel just misses the crank spindle.

The problem is definitely below the knee, because my knees go up and down straight when my foot is splayed out. When I ride toe out on the right, I don't have knee pain, even on very long brevets; but if my foot is held straight I get knee pain in a short time.
 
alienator said:
Hey, it's good to see you came in wearing your asshat.



Well considering it's such a narrow topic, with little chance of having anything proven, it didn't seem out of line to try and bring a little reasoned thought to the table. Why endanger a poor hypothesis with ideas that challenge it?:rolleyes:




Golly, Opie. You've spent a whopping 0.913% of your life driving. Granted, no one can take from you the massive amount of wisdom you've accumulated in the breadth of your 25 years on Earth. After all, 25 years: ooooooo doggie! I'd be surprised if the Dalai Lama doesn't seek your advice.

On the other hand, you've spent approximately 71,000 hours sleeping so maybe foot position on the bike is influenced by the position in which you sleep.



Quoi? Learn me about this social programming of which you know so much, please. Silly me, I was using the measily 20ish years as a scientist to question your hypothesis and basing my questioning on the fact that wild claims must provide proof. That is, after all, how science, and specifically scientific method works. FWIW, you can google "scientific method" iffin' you want to learn what it means. In fact, scientific method is based on the idea that theories are only born when hypotheses are proven (or if proving the negation, disproven) by repeatable experiments.

Meh. You talk big but bring no intelligence to the table, but you do bring a dearth of critical thinking skills.

Jace, meet the forum jackass. This is the guy who likes to insult new members in weak attempt to throw around the knowledge he thinks he has.

I haven't been a member here long, but he likes to insult every new member who comes on to this forum, trying to establish his dominance, which is nothing more than a weak facade from a chump hiding behind a keyboard.

Yeah, guess how he racked up 5000+ posts; insulting members.
 
GT, I'm not on any sides here, and I don't care about much, but I just can't resist. :) #1, that little debate on here was one year ago, and #2, .................. why would you bother to go out of your way and post against someone, instead of just staying on topic ?

#3, Despite your recent experiences, Alienator is actually ok and helpful, he just has an amusing character that likes to challenge humanity at it's most vulnerable moments, which is ok as well. :)
 
gman0482 said:
GT, I'm not on any sides here, and I don't care about much, but I just can't resist. :) #1, that little debate on here was one year ago, and #2, .................. why would you bother to go out of your way and post against someone, instead of just staying on topic ?

#3, Despite your recent experiences, Alienator is actually ok and helpful, he just has an amusing character that likes to challenge humanity at it's most vulnerable moments, which is ok as well. :)

gman, it's because I just have an amusing character that likes to challenge humanity at its most vulnerable moments. :D
 
I do not believe that your right toe side being out is related to the position of your foot on the gas pedal. If the driving theory applied, then it would apply equally to running or walking; and we would walk toe out more on the right.

On the other hand, I have been able to make adjustments to cleats, shims, and shoes to achieve a fairly neutral position of my feet while pedalling. My personal problem was a size differential between feet, short toes which caused the ball of my foot to be positioned differently, and very wide feet which caused my shoes to rub against the crank. For me, the trick was speedplay pedals, shims to allow the cleat placement more to the rear, and Sidi Mega shoes. That and a lot of trial and error on the trainer while I made tiny adjustments until I got it just right.

I can also say that people are strongly leg dominant as well as hand dominant. And nobody's legs are truly equal length so there is always an issue there. There are many variables beyond driving position that dictate pedaling mechanics.

As an aside, as a lawyer, I cross examined a doctor who claimed that differences in calf sizes were solely based upon a lumbar nerve root/disc injury. I made her measure my calfs in the courtroom to test her theory, and of course there was a several centimeter difference between the right and left. Most scientists do not form opinions based upon anecdotal or small sample size research. You and your buddy might not be a big enough sample size to draw any reasonable conclusion.

But I would invest time and energy in a good fit appointment with an experienced bike shop/fitter; rather than invest in a research protocol for your driving theory. Good fit is huge, and cleat position is a big part of fit.
 
GT Fanatic said:
gman, it's because I just have an amusing character that likes to challenge humanity at its most vulnerable moments. :D

humiliation03.jpg
 
Jace1283 said:
hi
i had a situation with new shoes and during realized that both myself and another rider have "toe out" on the right side compared to the left. I was thinking why this would be and realized we both drive with our right foot, like just about everyone else. What i do and i'm sure is common for many is have there foot at quite an angle when using the gas, "toe out." Most people have spent quite some time in their cars and i think this could be a cause. I'm going to use 2 washers to put the pedal out a little more so i can have more toe out, because i have had knee pain on just the right side while having zero issues on the left leg. What do you guys think about the gas pedal theory?

PS plz dont talk about foot angle(cleat shims) or seat height, been there done that.

So I also have a right foot only toe out. Never really noticed it until I started having lots of knee pain after cycling for 30-60 minutes. Having been a driver for 40 years I think your theory has merit.

But I am most interesting in what you've done for the knee pain.

I have much less pain when mountain biking (same shoes and pedals) Initially thought it was due to all the position and cadence changing in mountain biking but just measured the distance between the pedals (Q factor?) and found the mountain bike pedals are further apart. I am about to order "Knee Savers" to spread out the road pedals.

I have also tried keeping my right knee farther from the frame and that seems to help quite a bit.
 
johndacey said:
So I also have a right foot only toe out. Never really noticed it until I started having lots of knee pain after cycling for 30-60 minutes. Having been a driver for 40 years I think your theory has merit.

But I am most interesting in what you've done for the knee pain.

I have much less pain when mountain biking (same shoes and pedals) Initially thought it was due to all the position and cadence changing in mountain biking but just measured the distance between the pedals (Q factor?) and found the mountain bike pedals are further apart. I am about to order "Knee Savers" to spread out the road pedals.

I have also tried keeping my right knee farther from the frame and that seems to help quite a bit.

I had considerable knee pain as well, although mine was on the left side because I am much more "toe out" on that side, although I have it on my right side as well.

It took me a long time to figure out why my knee hurt so much. My pain was mostly where that tendon on the outside connects just below my kneecap. I went to physio, had bike fits, did stretching, and nothing seemed to help. On one ride I had to pedal home one legged and I couldn't walk for 10 minutes when I got off the bike because it hurt so much. I almost gave up biking.

Then I started wondering if my "toe-out" was the problem. I ordered that knee saver thing you mention above and tried it. I didn't like it - it was so big. So instead I adjusted my cleat position to give me the greatest angle I could have without hitting my crank arm, and then I put a few washers on the pedal to push it out more. And it worked, although even now many years later I still get twinges early in the season - overuse probably so you have to watch that too.

I've since reduced the number of washers as my leg has had a good chance to heal.

Good luck.